Truly custom engine builds...

[JohnC]

What I like best is that cams & cranks can be stacked as modules as well, without requiring specific forgings or billets...that alone makes or breaks the concept.

Segmented cranks I've seen and dealt with, but no experience with a segmented cam. Normally there's not much room either on top for an OHC or in the block for such an animal.

I frankly don't remember how the industrial engine company did it with their V16, but thinking about it now, it must have been segmented like the crank. But doing that with a big stationary engine is one thing - doing it with a compact automotive engine where space is at a premium is another. It'll be interesting as h*ll to see how you get on with this.

 

[Roark_John]

And you won't even need rainbow unicorns with rose farts to deliver those. UPS will bring that sort of thing right to the door.

Ron, I'm not quite sure why you are trying to have fun at my expense. :shrug: I realize it's your house, your rules. But I'm trying to see if people would be genuinely interested in something that could benefit the entire spectrum of automotive enthusiasts.

You never know...this idea could very well turn into the next RHS, Dart or World

 

[Roark_John]

Segmented cranks I've seen and dealt with, but no experience with a segmented cam. Normally there's not much room either on top for an OHC or in the block for such an animal.

I frankly don't remember how the industrial engine company did it with their V16, but thinking about it now, it must have been segmented like the crank. But doing that with a big stationary engine is one thing - doing it with a compact automotive engine where space is at a premium is another. It'll be interesting as h*ll to see how you get on with this.

Sure there is...you've already seen them on Ford Modular V8 and Duratec V6 engines. The cam lobes are sintered metal swaged onto a steel tube. It doesn't get any easier to build than that.

All it takes is fixturing and a repeatable process. Same goes for a segmented crank. I guess bike shops don't get enough of the same model to justify building a jig for pressing the 2-stroke cranks back together, but if they did, they'd see just how fast & easy it is to service one.

I like that you have a clue regarding how the big stuff is done, makes it much easier to explain how I've solved the other problems too. :thumbsup:

 

[Doc Kaler]

John,

If you can indeed manufacture a modular engine that is perhaps 1.5 to 2X the cost of the LS crate engine, I would guess you would have a good market. Take the skepticism in stride. I can hardly think of a business concept that didn't meet fairly stiff negative critiques on inception. "What won't kill you makes you stronger"......

 

[JohnC]

John what's your thinking on the crankcase, cylinders & heads? Where will the splits be?

 

[EGLITOM]

Sounds very interressting

Your flat v12 would this be a 180° V12 ( 6 rod journals) or a true boxer ( 12 rod journals)? Also what would your standard or targeted bore and stroke dimension be ?
TOM

 

[Rick S.]

I know where Tom's going on this....917 anyone?

 

[John]

John,
If you are serious about this, then build one and show everyone what it can do.

Until then, it's interesting to consider, but no one is going to spend a dime on an unproven motor. Even then it's an uphill climb.

But good luck. Don't let the naysayers say you can't do it.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

But what if there was a completely MODULAR platform on which to build your dream? Think Lego blocks. Want a V12 with SBF bore spacing? Slap on a few extra cylinders. Want a V10 with LS bore spacing? Ditto.

What if you wanted to do something extra special? Say a DOHC 120* V6? An engine like that would run you $25-30k (at a MINIMUM) with a custom block and internals, using off-the-shelf cylinder heads. Now imagine doing it for $10-15k...all custom. That's a game changer.

I don't get out of my chair for new engines (or transaxles, or wheel bearings) until they've demonstrated the manufacturing repeatability and field reliability of (say) the Chevy LS line. So I think my answer to your question is "Yeah, when you have that record established I'm interested. Let me know when you're there."

Dallas is right: first step is to build one and demonstrate it. Before then it's just talk.

 

[JohnC]

John's doing this the right way IMO. First, brainstorming on a public forum to gauge interest, especially about which configurations are most likely to be a commercial success, then I suspect he'll go away, try to finalise the specs, then build a pilot motor.

I would say to the naysayers, don't dampen the interest or rain on the guy's parade - interject some positive input and let this run its course.

If nothing else, it sure beats the old worn out discussions on politics, religion, and "which GT40 is the best one for me to buy."

 

[Roark_John]

John,

If you can indeed manufacture a modular engine that is perhaps 1.5 to 2X the cost of the LS crate engine, I would guess you would have a good market. Take the skepticism in stride. I can hardly think of a business concept that didn't meet fairly stiff negative critiques on inception. "What won't kill you makes you stronger"......

I welcome the questioning, it helps me prove the concept, as well as allow for feedback to address issues that I may have overlooked.

This would never be a get-rich proposition as a niche application, but I can see it's potential in other markets too. Like I said, I truly believe this will be a game-changer if I can see it through to fruition.

 

[Roark_John]

John what's your thinking on the crankcase, cylinders & heads? Where will the splits be?

Much like a modern motorcycle engine: two-piece crankcase, cylinder bank, cylinder head.

I like bed-plates better than long deep skirts and most modern OEM engines are going or have gone that direction.

With proper development, this design can also function as a load-bearing element...from the start, not as a series of developments or kludges. Imagine a stressed engine configuration, if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[Jack]

There have been a few 4 cyl bike engines that have been been made into 8 cyl fire breathers. The Falconers's were based on the SBC designs. It is very doable in concept, but probably cost prohibitive when looking at development cost vs. actual market sales. Thats likely the biggest reason we have not seen it done on any scale before. Am I for it, YES! But only if it can be accomplished for a reasonable cost. I'm with Doc Kaler in that if the costs could be in the 1.5 to 2x the LS crate engine, you would have a viable market.

 

[Roark_John]

Sounds very interressting

Your flat v12 would this be a 180° V12 ( 6 rod journals) or a true boxer ( 12 rod journals)? Also what would your standard or targeted bore and stroke dimension be ?
TOM

Good questions TOM! :thumbsup:

YOUR engine can be whatever you like it to be...the design is completely modular. A block is nothing more than a series of bulkheads and containment walls. Nothing prevents me from increasing the number of main journals, except available off-the-part bearing shells and physical space.

So...I could do it either way that you would want, in that specific application, for a relatively minor price difference due to extra material with more main journals.

Bore/stroke can be changed on the fly, provided you have the components on hand to do a swap-over. Target goal is 500-550cc per cylinder. How you get there is up to you. Space is your only constraint, larger bores require a larger bore-pitch to accomodate. This design is meant to capitalize on variable bore-pitch requirements. Not a one-size fits all.

Me personally, I prefer an oversquare design for max power, and fullsquare or near enough for max torque. But nothing would prevent you from building an undersquare engine, again provided you can source the appropriate internal components without breaking the bank...you are only limited by the real-estate you have available in your engine bay.

I don't mean to be vague, but I also don't want to give away the farm on how I'm able to implement this wide variation just yet. Intellectual property and propietary techniques, I hope you understand.

 

[Roark_John]

John,
If you are serious about this, then build one and show everyone what it can do.

Until then, it's interesting to consider, but no one is going to spend a dime on an unproven motor. Even then it's an uphill climb.

But good luck. Don't let the naysayers say you can't do it.

I'm actually accumulating the parts to do just that. For the first initial build, I'll be using an existing manufacturers cylinder head, due to expense. But I'm looking for a reputable engine builder with a broad exposure...putting this on the line in front of a media based showcase to demonstrate that I'm not afraid to show my successes AND failures.

And a little exposure never hurt a business enterprise

I wouldn't want anybody to spend money on something they aren't comfortable with, I've never cared about money over my reputation.

 

[Roark_John]

I don't get out of my chair for new engines (or transaxles, or wheel bearings) until they've demonstrated the manufacturing repeatability and field reliability of (say) the Chevy LS line. So I think my answer to your question is "Yeah, when you have that record established I'm interested. Let me know when you're there."

Dallas is right: first step is to build one and demonstrate it. Before then it's just talk.

I understand your position and appreciate it. I'm not asking anyone for any deposits or backing. I'm simply gauging interest before embarking on what could be a dismal venture...or a glorious conquest.

To be honest, I'll never be able to demonstrate field reliability equal to ANY Chevy engine, I have neither the capacity nor resources. How many millions of LS engines are out on the road & track? But that doesn't mean that I won't dyno-test the living hell out of it, or that there won't be vigorous beta testing, possibly by various members on this board.

Would that pass the sniff test for you?

 

[Roark_John]

John's doing this the right way IMO. First, brainstorming on a public forum to gauge interest, especially about which configurations are most likely to be a commercial success, then I suspect he'll go away, try to finalise the specs, then build a pilot motor.

I would say to the naysayers, don't dampen the interest or rain on the guy's parade - interject some positive input and let this run its course.

If nothing else, it sure beats the old worn out discussions on politics, religion, and "which GT40 is the best one for me to buy."

Thank you for that Cribbj, if there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel, there isn't much point in going forth with the venture. I'd be better off having a one-off billet block, heads, crank & cams built for my own track toy...well, at least the money spent would be justified in my own mind.

I would like to be the candy store for all the grown kids who want their own special variety of automotive sugar-plum. Why NOT have the ability to put a completely custom engine in your completely custom/kit/specialty car/hotrod?

Seems to me that's PRECISELY what hotrodders have wanted since the beginning. There will always be catalog-cowboys, custom fabricators, junkyard scroungers and underdog racers. That's what's great about this hobby, there is no prescribed course.

 

[Roark_John]

There have been a few 4 cyl bike engines that have been been made into 8 cyl fire breathers. The Falconers's were based on the SBC designs. It is very doable in concept, but probably cost prohibitive when looking at development cost vs. actual market sales. Thats likely the biggest reason we have not seen it done on any scale before. Am I for it, YES! But only if it can be accomplished for a reasonable cost. I'm with Doc Kaler in that if the costs could be in the 1.5 to 2x the LS crate engine, you would have a viable market.

Those designs you mentioned were inspirations for this, though I must say the desire has been in my heart since I first caught the gearhead bug.

Not only can this be done for a reasonable cost, but the method of production I'm choosing beats out billet & casting by a large margin...near net-shape structures ready for finish machining. Doesn't get much better than that!

Would you believe stiffer AND lighter too? :laugh:

 

[Seymour Snerd]

But that doesn't mean that I won't dyno-test the living hell out of it, or that there won't be vigorous beta testing, possibly by various members on this board.

Would that pass the sniff test for you?

For "toy" purposes yes. Part of the reason for my saying that is I don't quite know what "are you interested?" means.

If as someone else suggested the question is "what configurations do you want?" then my answer would be "flat 12 because that's so hard to procure in the current environment" and "V-12 for musical reasons."

So back to the original question "would I be interested in having [all those] options" of course the answer is "yes" but how does my saying that help you?

I guess my question back to you is "what exactly are you trying to learn by posting in this forum?" Or put another way "what decision are you going to make based on this information?"

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Some of the Falconer engines have been used in aircraft, haven't they? the type approval for aircraft is difficult to get. His engines must be fairly reliable, I would think.