Truly custom engine builds...

[Mesa]

My engine builder LOVES the Honda V4s. So much so he has a 50K dollar (yes you read that right) 400cc RVF (the mini RC30) honda in his shop. ALthough I'm not sure he loves adjusting the gear lash in those gear driven cams!

Back on topic - If making the bore centers 3.5 allows for a stronger crank that would allow say a 10,000 RPM redline then I say go for it. Would it also need 4 valves per to prevent float at those revs?

Oh and flat plane crank is a MUST have!

 

[David]

My engine builder LOVES the Honda V4s. So much so he has a 50K dollar (yes you read that right) 400cc RVF (the mini RC30) honda in his shop. ALthough I'm not sure he loves adjusting the gear lash in those gear driven cams!

That's what two of ours are, RVF400R (NC35)'s, the RVF400R is a mini RC45 though, VFR400R NC30 was the mini RC30. 50k though, bloody hell. I'd love to see details of his if there are any online. (valve clearances are hell, I dread to even consider adjusting gear lash).

 

[egoman/ Shawn Wedge]

Of course you could use the toyota inline six and build a billet block and crank, VOILA a v12 capable of 1000 hp. I believe that figure is under rated seeing as the 6 can generate 800 to 1000 hp in drag racing form.
We are all dreamers who occaisionally bring our dreams to life.

 

[Roark_John]

Back on topic - If making the bore centers 3.5 allows for a stronger crank that would allow say a 10,000 RPM redline then I say go for it. Would it also need 4 valves per to prevent float at those revs?

Oh and flat plane crank is a MUST have!

You want high revs for what exactly? What would you hope to accomplish with this engine?

(the following isn't meant to be personal or a slam)

This is the problem I face...all the wannabe racers who think that a super high-revving engine would be trick, wouldn't be willing to deal with it as a daily driver. It's not a "casual" driver engine, it requires alot of maintenance and understanding of the interacting systems to avoid a domino effect in the valvetrain.

If it's just for a toy and would be serviced by a bike engine-builder, then no problem.

A flat plane crank isn't the same as a boxer crank, nor is it necessary in a V12. I can't even think of a reason to put a flat plane crank in a V12, they are already two inline 6s coupled at the crank shaft...in effect they ARE a flat-plane design, without artificially creating an odd throw layout.

For a V8, I can see the aural aspect, as well as the potential for tuning...as it's essentially two inline 4s joined at the crank. Of course this will either require balance shafts to cancel out strange harmonics, or just leave it be as part of the "ambience" of having such a high-strung motor.

Would people really be happy with such a maintenance-intensive engine, when they complain about the costs of Ferrari & Porsche engines for the same reasons?

 

[Roark_John]

That's what two of ours are, RVF400R (NC35)'s, the RVF400R is a mini RC45 though, VFR400R NC30 was the mini RC30. 50k though, bloody hell. I'd love to see details of his if there are any online. (valve clearances are hell, I dread to even consider adjusting gear lash).

Geardrive for DOHC would be a nightmare for maintenance and production...the cost to produce them would push a V12 into the realm of a race engine. There are already existing race engines out there that someone could purchase if they really desired them.

There is nothing wrong with "engine lust", but if you aren't going to be able to live with it in the real world, it's a pointless exercise.

I get that there are some folks who really dig this kind of mechanical novelty, but that's not really the market I want to deal with...very expensive on my end, and not alot (if any) profit in it.

 

[Mesa]

John,
You asked and we are responding. OK maybe I'm not real dialed in on what a flat plane crank means relative to a V12. So shoot the uninformed. I like the sound of a V12 and I like the sound of a Ferrari 430 (hence the reference to flat plane crank bundle of snakes sound). I was thinking a smaller bore V12 would tend to be easier on the crank, if so, then it follows that the engine would naturally be capable of higher revs relative to the same capacity V8 engine. If the engine was capable then why not? More revs mean higher HP output, if the valve train can take it.

Maybe you could layout the limitations of a 3.5 inch bore V12 LS based design then we would not take the discussion places you don't want or the design can't go.

Interesting discussion nonetheless
Rob

 

[Roark_John]

John,
You asked and we are responding. OK maybe I'm not real dialed in on what a flat plane crank means relative to a V12. So shoot the uninformed. I like the sound of a V12 and I like the sound of a Ferrari 430 (hence the reference to flat plane crank bundle of snakes sound). I was thinking a smaller bore V12 would tend to be easier on the crank, if so, then it follows that the engine would naturally be capable of higher revs relative to the same capacity V8 engine. If the engine was capable then why not? More revs mean higher HP output, if the valve train can take it.

No flames intended, Rob.

The bundle-of-snakes headers on a 90* throw V8 is intended to allow for tuned-length exhaust and scavenging better than traditional headers, especially where there is no room for an X/H pipe crossover. It just so happens to give the same sound as a flat-plane crank 90* V8, like on the Ferrari.

More revs don't always mean more horsepower, nor is high revs something usable in 95% of driving situations. Small bore & stroke engines HAVE to rev in order to develop horsepower, plus lighter components can take the acceleration/deceleration much better than larger masses.

Hearing an engine at full-song is a wonderful experience, but it's not something that most people will ever do outside of the race track. Revs are a byproduct of engine design, not usually the premise. Most engine designers, even those that focus on race engines, wouldn't design a high-revving version if they could attain the low-rev torque and power that is necessary to achieve the objectives it's being built for. Most of that has to do with rules layed down by a racing organization, rather than longevity and tractability.

Maybe you could layout the limitations of a 3.5 inch bore V12 LS based design then we would not take the discussion places you don't want or the design can't go.

Interesting discussion nonetheless
Rob

The only limitations I would like to suggest are aimed for manufacturability...complexity and multiple high-tolerance components make for an expensive end product. If expensive is ok, there are already a number of highly developed engines available in the market for those who wish to adapt them to their purpose.

So, my guidelines would have to be AFFORDABLE, RELIABLE and COMPACT. Other than that...play ball!

 

[Seymour Snerd]

M

I get that there are some folks who really dig this kind of mechanical novelty, but that's not really the market I want to deal with

OK, then whom do you have in mind as your typical customer? What's he like, what does he want, and what is he doing? Maybe we can each tell which of us is him, and then those who are can help you more directly.

 

[Roark_John]

M

OK, then whom do you have in mind as your typical customer? What's he like, what does he want, and what is he doing? Maybe we can each tell which of us is him, and then those who are can help you more directly.

Well, if you don't mind paying what it's worth to build it, I'll build you the engine that you want. But I'm not going to take a loss on it. I know there aren't any guarantees in business, but there also isn't a reason to go into business without some potential for gain.

If a guy wants a flat-12 for his 917 replica, there are ways of getting it done. But are they really going to pay what it costs? If so...why aren't they doing it already?

I work in manufacturing, I know exactly to the penny what it costs just to machine or fabricate something, from the raw material to the tooling to the exigent overhead. Now I've got to build some profit into it so that I can make it worth my while, as well as have some stability to provide additional parts down the road.

I have no qualms whatsoever in delivering to you exactly what you want...so long as you have no qualms whatsoever in taking possession of it and paying up at time of transfer.

There are alot of quips about building a prototype and then maybe someone will be interested. That's alot of coin to toss down on a whim, that any person on this forum could also do on their own. If I'm going to build a one-off, it will be for ME, for MY purposes. I fail to see how that helps any potential customers.

Building a product is a different matter and I'd rather hit the broadest part of the niche, serve it well, and have it grow to be an enterprise with legs.

If you want DOHC and 4 valves, I can do that. If you want all-billet and carbon-fiber, I can do that too. But I can promise that it's not going to be affordable to all but the wealthiest of patrons, or the most dedicated of track nuts.

I truly believe that my real market is you guys. I have no doubt that we have some really well-off individuals here, but if they were THAT well-off, they'd be buying the originals, rather than building replicas and slapping SBCs with flipped Porsche boxes in their rides.

Which means that you want performance, but you also want reliability. You want style, but you also want safety & comfort. Which is at complete odds with a highly tuned quasi-race engine that requires a teardown/rebuild everyone 10hrs.

Am I that far off on my appraisal?

 

[Roger Reid]

...If I'm going to build a one-off, it will be for ME, for MY purposes...

So what do YOU want to build and when do we get to see it?

 

[BDP]

With all of the engines available used at www.car-part.com and new at the manufacturer's parts web sites, I am not sure what the need is to have a custom engine built if you are looking for something besides the usual crate motor offerings:

Audi V-8/ V-10, Ferrari V8/ V-12/Flat 12, Porsche Flat Six Turbo and GT3....the list is endless. If you wanted to go race custom there is always this:

http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562069.htm

75° odd fire V8
2.8 LITER, 170 cu. in. displacement (3.0 liter optional)
84mm Bore X 63mm Stroke (67 stroke optional)
4 cams, 32 valves via internal silent chain
530mm wide x 485mm long x 530mm high
400HP @ 10,000 rpm with stock street cams (higher spec. is available)
245 ft-lbs torque @ 7500 rpm
200 lbs engine weight :shocked::shocked::shocked::heart:
Billet nitrided steel 180° crank
4340 H-beam con-rods with ARP bolts
Billet 6061-T6 aluminum crankcase
Dry sump 0il system with 4 stage pump
7.25" or 5.5" Twin disc clutch
DTA S80 full sequential ECU
Unique cylinder offset and cam drive


$33,000 cost however....

I wish the OP luck with the project but I am not sure why the need to re-invent the wheel with no proven reliability or testing when for a similar amount of coin you can get a proven name brand engine?

 

[Robert S.]

<style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> I visited the sites you provided links to. I did not see a product (engines) for sale page however. Nor, do I understand the diverse building capabilities. I have four months, give or take, to decide on an engine build for my car, which is tentatively scheduled to arrive in the states in June/July. Any additional links or information will be appreciated.



Thanks, Robert

 

[Rick]

Here is one although not Ford;

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRSugcmEaYo

 

[Mike Pass]

Maybe this will float somebody's boat.

Radical SR8 - Nurburgring Nordschleife - YouTube

Dyno TEST - V8-hayabusa engine - Hartley Enterprises - YouTube

Two Hayabusas on common crank to make a v8. I have seen this run in an Ariel Atom - very quick! Sounds nice as well. Compares very well with the old and very successful Cosworth DFV. Several UK companies into producing these now. Some brave soul is running one in a bike!
See Home


Cheers
Mike

 

[JohnC]

OT from John's thread, but we were just chatting about another extraordinary motor on a different forum so I thought I'd mention it here. This gentleman, Andreas Georgeades, who is very well known for his exotic motorbike engine builds, is now building an H16 motor from 4 x YZF600 Yamaha engines.

16 Cylinder H16 Engine to Power New Motorcycle Under Construction by Andreas Georgeades

16 cylinders and only 2.4L - I'll bet it's going to scream when he finishes. Talk about 21st century BRM!

One of his notable previous efforts was a V12 built from 2 x Honda CBX engines: Honda CBX V12 by Andreas Georgeades