U.N. AGREES WITH lonesomebob!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tom P]

Tom,

If you are looking for accurate data concerning the real cost of electric power, you may want to look somewhere other than the "Nuclear Fissionary",

Nuclear Fissionary........? Really?

If I put up data about the cost of energy from a Windmill or Solar panel marketing company, what would you say? Would you believe the data?

Just click on Nuclear Fissionary at the top of their site, you will see just how biased they are.

Now do not get me wrong, I also think that Nuclear energy is a good way to go, but Tom, if you want real believable data about the most efficient aircraft, would you go to the "Boing is Best" site?

Jim, I was looking at the "cost per KWH chart", that's one of the things Jeff had mention. If you have some "square jerk" sources, by all means share them with us.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Jeff, I worked for Connecticut Light & Power and Tucson Electric Power as a transmission and distribution lineman in the 60's and 70's. I know that we disagree at times, but what you have posted in this thread is very factual and informing. Thanks

 

[Jeff Young]

Al, thank you and I appreciate that.

 

[Doug S.]

3. Move to Underground Lines Mark noted this is happening in Europe. It's finally reached the US (and is a large part of the business I do). Underground cables, even over large distances (hundreds of miles) are now more economically feasible than overhead lines. They are easier to permit, and once installed require far less maintenance. They allow the use of HVDC technology to transmit power over long distances using DC current to avoid large transmission losses.

A diversified, connected, smart grid is the answer to cheap US power.

I converted from overhead 100 amp service to 200 amp underground service on a home I own in SW KS. At the time the POCO did not believe there was adequate strength in the external walls to support the weight of the wires the 200 amp overhead service required, so I bit the bullet and went underground at great expense to myself. I am not dissatisfied with the results, just the cost. I did notice that the POCO, which supplied the wire for the connect, required wiring from the meter to the house 2 gauge sizes larger than they would have spec'd for overhead service. When I asked, they said that the underground service would not receive the cooling effect from the air that the overhead service would, so larger wires were required.

Again, the POCO supplied the wire, so I am not unhappy with the larger gauge requirement...just found it interesting. If we are discussing changing our entire distribution grid to underground I could see a great benefit, but also a great cost...that large gauge wire from the meter to my distribution box had to be expensive, I can't imagine what the wires for underground large-distance distribution would cost...and, of course, with the utilities guaranteed a profitable rate by the regulating authorities, we customers will get to bear the cost in increased rates.

My home near Houston, TX has underground utilities, not an overhead wire in the entire subdivision. When Hurricane Ike roared through a few years ago we were one of the first to have electrical service restored...the other subdivisions went weeks without service as all those downed trees that took down lines had to be cleared and the lines rehung.

I am a big proponent of underground service now....the ice in my freezer never melted before the power was on, those in subdivisions with overhead service lost the entire contents of their freezers unless they had their own generator.

I have a pipe-dream of living off the grid...don't use much electricity, myself, and believe I could achieve that self-sufficiency with a couple of vertical axis wind generators and a decent battery pack. The accepted best use for solar seems to be hot-water...for now. Once PV's become more effective and less expensive, they may make greater inroads.

I have no problems with nuclear....or natural gas. Coal...that's another issue for me...I know they are requiring scrubbers on the smokestacks, I just can't imagine it can be all that clean. Kansas has had huge lawsuits over the permitting of coal-fired generation stations.

Cheers!

Doug

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Electricity flow generates heat, whenever wire is enclosed in a space the heat generated cannot dissipate. When you increase wire size over what is needed in open air, it generates less heat. Because copper is more conductve than aluminum, a smaller size copper can be used, but copper is far more expensive.

 

[Jeff Young]

Exactly. In fact, one of the key characteristics in determining if an underground installation will work is the thermal resistivity of the soil. If you can't get heat out of the cable and through the soil at an adequate rate, you will have a failure.

 

[Mark]

Understanding the point about heat through wires Jeff, but the problem can't be that difficult to solve as we have had mainly underground grids within urban areas since the early 1900's. So if that issue was solvable, or managable back then, it should pose no issues for you guys in the 21st century.

It still won't happen enmasse though, I suspect because no one will pay for it.

 

[Jeff Young]

Oh, it's solvable, I'm just saying it is part of the equation when you are determining how much conductor you need, how much insulating oil, etc.

It IS happening in mass. Cable manufacturers are booked up years in advance (I work for ABB, one of the world's leading manufacturers of underground and undersea cable, among many other things). We jsut spent $90 MUSD opening a new plant in the US, and $400 MUSD expanding our plant in Sweden. Prysmian, another manufacturer, is building a new plant in South carolina. Nexas, Pirelli, and others, all ramping up.

The age of the above ground electric cable is rapidly coming to an end.

 

[Jim Craik]

How did I miss this? Energy and specifically Electricity, is my field.

WIND IS NOT A REAL, VIABLE generation option.

Wind is simply a VISIBLE option allowing the powers that to be BE SEEN to be doing something. Wind generation is a most excellent way to fool idiots!

You want a viable alternative power source. Look to the sea and invest in that. Hydro power is proven. Wind. Gimme a break.

I purchase around 1TW of electricity per year. Wind is bullshit, has not and never will impact sufficiaently on standard generating capacity. Anyone who say it does, is either self-motivated or easily fooled.

Mark, I wonder, if after looking at the data, do you still feel that "
WIND IS NOT A REAL, VIABLE generation option".

Additionally you said "Wind generation is a most excellent way to fool idiots"!

Who was fooled? Who was an idiot?

 

[Jim Craik]

At the risk of being killed I would say that the idea of "growing your own fuel" is, was and always will be completely absurd.

A bit like wind farms - a political expedience, not a viable alternative..

Mr Hardy,

After looking at the data, do you still feel that.....

"wind farms - a political expedience, not a viable alternative.."

 

[Jeff Young]

While I think Mark's post has some hyperbole in it, and in places is very ill-informed, there is in all fairness a kernel of truth to it. Wind will most likely not ever be able to carry the base load in the US or other countries. It is too unpredictable. 20-40% seems to be the sweet spot.

Again, diversified grid is the way to go, but wind generation is not some fantasy.

 

[Jim Craik]

Jeff you are absolutly right, I doubt that wind will ever be more than 20-40%.

My point is, I had the nerve to say that approximately 5% of California electrical energy came from wind.

At that point Mr Hardy, Mr Fechter and Mark all went off on me, saying wind power is "bull shit", would never be cost effective, anyone who thinks that is an "idiot", easly fooled and the whole concept is "absurd" and "ugly".

I'm affraid an appology is most likely out of the question and I doubt that they will admit they were wrong, but they were wrong!

 

[Mark]

Thank you Jeff, for recognising the hyperbole element of my posts. I also admit to stooping to sarcasm on more than one occasion too. Heaven forbid, but I often also fall into the habit of mixing both and adding a smidgen of conspiracy theorism just for extra zest and flavour.

Some folk in here are far too literal and polarised for my personal taste and when I encounter entrenched one-sidedness, I tend to let the sarcasm ingredient run away with itself. Shame on me! (Oops, there I go again :lipsrsealed: )

You are, perhaps, also correct when you say that some of my opinions are ill-informed, but I stress 'perhaps'. It all comes down to what information any of us are privy to, or indeed, choose to read or by the same degree, dismiss out of hand, based simply upon our inbred dislike for the source.

Unlike some, I have never succumbed to cutting and pasting to make my arguements. For the most part, they are truely how I feel or interpret situations or simply feelings etc. Rightly or wrongly.

I can accept that I could easily and oftenbe wrong. I believe others to be at times too. That is the purpose or true arguement. Too few people in my experience here, really grasp the term or use the word correctly.

The person who chooses to challenge me most often in here has failed to recognise that I have often agreed with him on many posts, issues, or points of view. There are others in here too, that I agree with sometimes and not others.

To be utterly clear Mr. Craik, you have one side of the fence and that clearly suits you. I like both sides of the fence at different times and for different reasons. Debate my good man, debate. THINK GOD DAMN IT MAN, THINK!

 

[Jim Craik]

Mark,

Thank you for your thoughful post.

As for your last line "THINK GOD DAMN IT MAN, THINK!"

I do "Think" thats why I am here<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[Mark]

Fair enough Jim

 

[Keith]

Jeff you are absolutly right, I doubt that wind will ever be more than 20-40%.

My point is, I had the nerve to say that approximately 5% of California electrical energy came from wind.

At that point Mr Hardy, Mr Fechter and Mark all went off on me, saying wind power is "bull shit", would never be cost effective, anyone who thinks that is an "idiot", easly fooled and the whole concept is "absurd" and "ugly".

I'm affraid an appology is most likely out of the question and I doubt that they will admit they were wrong, but they were wrong!

I think it is you who should apologise mate. I never said any of those things quoted above. I never "came back at you" it was me that bought up the subject of windpower to begin with saying that it was, in my opinion, "not a viable alternative" (Post 2)

And, I am not "wrong". The UK Govt is just about to terminate large subsidies for windpower generation, and that will see an end to some of the more outlandish, intrusive and plain inefficient mini wind farms on shore that, in the main, the UK citizens DO NOT WANT in their backyards.

Instead, windpower is going offshore in huge farms which is fine and dandy until a supertanker drives through the middle of it, which it will.

I further commented that there is a future in Nuclear Power, I didn't look that up, that was MY own thought.

You haven't "proved" anything. You and your ilk are Google maniacs that reprint techno babble until I want to vomit bone marrow. You must lead such a desperate life that you have targeted certain people on the internet that you don't know, don't agree with and don't understand and feel that you are some Lone Ranger figure righting perceived and largely imagined "wrongs" in a thoroughly triumphal and distasteful manner.

You do not debate or discuss - you use other people's data to reinforce your already prejudged "opinions" and are sickeningly sycophantic to anyone you think is a 'good guy'

I shall use you tactics against you Craik. Tell me where I said ANY of those things mentioned in your post #72 or APOLOGISE TO ME you Craiktard.

 

[Bob Fechter]

I feel that I must step in and apologize to the rest of the world for the contemptuous behavior of our liberal American respondents here. It is a known fact that when liberals lose power they also lose their senses. They will do or say anything to keep said power because they believe the ends justify the means. The "false but accurate" mantra of Dan Rather is a poignant reminder of the liberal disease I call power dementia. This will only get worse as the economy continues to crumble and B.O.'s polls keep falling. Oh yes, there's the Conservative's best friend, Slow Joe Biden, too!

 

[Keith]

That may be so Bob, I don't know, but my comments and answers to almost any question posted here is, in the main, non politically aligned. If it appears to be thus, then any similarity discerned in my comments with real political agendas, policies or candidates is purely coincidental.

Any opinions I express are based on gut feeling backed up by 67 years of life experience. They are not based on any answer found on internet search engines as I treat such 'answers' as dubious unless proved otherwise as I do any printed article, TV program or any media come to that.

The reason for my stance is quite simple. I have a deep routed hatred for whingers, whiners, complainers and character assassins who spout their vitriol with the benefit of anonymity. This includes political diatribe which you will rarely see me discuss. My view is that any such 'discussion' or diatribe is completely useless as you will never sway another's strongly held views in this manner. If you really want to make a difference, get engaged in the political process and get out there - stand up and be counted.

Anything else is bullshit. I would guess Bob that you were born a Conservative Republican and will therefore die one without a single glance in another direction.

And that, in our 'democracy' is your choice entirely, but please do not align me with any political party, process or propaganda.

 

[Nick]

I have a deep routed hatred for whingers, whiners, complainers

Yikes, I resemble those remarks

 

[Doug S.]

I feel that I must step in and apologize to the rest of the world for the contemptuous behavior of our liberal American respondents here. It is a known fact that when liberals lose power they also lose their senses. They will do or say anything to keep said power because they believe the ends justify the means...

:lol:

:yuck::loser:

Sometimes it's difficult to figure out what you have been :smoking: , LB!

...never saw anyone so tied up in knots with hatred...give it up, man, it'll poison your soul :idea:

Cheers!

Doug