Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks that explains it then.
US Army Sgt Bergdhal, thoughts?
- Thread starter Al Wohlstrom
- Start date
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
It's worth keeping in mind that whatever Bergdahl may have done or NOT done, he is definitely NOT responsible for any deals made to get him back. Surely we can all agree on that.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Sigh....
I just read 3-4 pages of this thread. Many of the same voices in the US (and their "proxies" here) were publicly decrying the Obama Administration for not doing enough to bring this guy home just a few months ago. The about face on this is telling...
While we should all have reservations about setting 5 terrorists free, it is a bit naive to say "never negotiate with terrorists." We do. Our friends in the UK do. Even the Israelis do. Sometimes it is required. Here, the President made the difficult decision to release five bad guys for one American based on intel that the American might be soon killed. Was that the right decision or the wrong one? I don't know. All I know is that when an American life (or a Brit, or any fellow countryman) is at stake, and rests on a leader's decision, that decision is a hard one.
And what of Bergdahl himself? Reports from his platoon are contradictory. The man volunteered for service, and fought in combat many times. Some of his platoon liked him, and some didn't. We don't know if he walked off or if he was captured, we are all speculating until there is a TRIAL -- which is how we do things in America when it comes to determining guilt.
The rush to judgment with this guy is pretty sickening in my view.
I just read 3-4 pages of this thread. Many of the same voices in the US (and their "proxies" here) were publicly decrying the Obama Administration for not doing enough to bring this guy home just a few months ago. The about face on this is telling...
While we should all have reservations about setting 5 terrorists free, it is a bit naive to say "never negotiate with terrorists." We do. Our friends in the UK do. Even the Israelis do. Sometimes it is required. Here, the President made the difficult decision to release five bad guys for one American based on intel that the American might be soon killed. Was that the right decision or the wrong one? I don't know. All I know is that when an American life (or a Brit, or any fellow countryman) is at stake, and rests on a leader's decision, that decision is a hard one.
And what of Bergdahl himself? Reports from his platoon are contradictory. The man volunteered for service, and fought in combat many times. Some of his platoon liked him, and some didn't. We don't know if he walked off or if he was captured, we are all speculating until there is a TRIAL -- which is how we do things in America when it comes to determining guilt.
The rush to judgment with this guy is pretty sickening in my view.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
First I wasn't aware there was a clamour to bring the guy home and being so far away I am not up to the minutiae of the case. However from the video, six of his platoon are convinced he is a deserter. I didn't see any contradiction there. Also at least six were killed searching for him.
Personally I hope there is a trial, but I doubt there will be.
Personally I hope there is a trial, but I doubt there will be.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
It's pretty pathetic. Some of the same folks yelling "deserter!" where, just a few months ago, lambasting the President for "leaving this guy behind."
Reports from his platoon are contradictory. Some liked him, some did not. Fox News has been trotting those who didn't around on the news. The "liberal media" has been mostly silent on the others.
Link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/u...ighlights-a-unit-known-for-troubles.html?_r=0
Additionally, it's unclear exactly how he was captured. Pentagon did conclude he walked off, but no on is really sure. Taliban itself reports it captured him on or close to the base:
WikiLeaks document shows contradictory reports of Bergdahl's capture - UPI.com
But even that document is contradictory.
Still, pretty murky stuff to be yelling "deserter!" or "traitor!" or "execute him!".
Reports from his platoon are contradictory. Some liked him, some did not. Fox News has been trotting those who didn't around on the news. The "liberal media" has been mostly silent on the others.
Link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/u...ighlights-a-unit-known-for-troubles.html?_r=0
Additionally, it's unclear exactly how he was captured. Pentagon did conclude he walked off, but no on is really sure. Taliban itself reports it captured him on or close to the base:
WikiLeaks document shows contradictory reports of Bergdahl's capture - UPI.com
But even that document is contradictory.
Still, pretty murky stuff to be yelling "deserter!" or "traitor!" or "execute him!".
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Fair enough Jeff, good to get a different point of view. However if he did desert he should be shot. He won't be of course as no war is declared. Once the water boarding gets the truth out of him he will quietly disappear. One way or the other!
Neither was I. 'First time I heard about him at all was when the current flap started. Maybe I slept thru the previous "clamour". 'Guess I must have.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I clearly recall the event of his capture. It was all over the news, and has periodically come up since that time.
I think it means a a great deal for us to be fair, and wait for judgment on this whole issue. It is not at all clear what happened, and it is not at all clear what additionally happened to result in his release.
I have not served in combat- or in the military at all, although I worked in military hospitals several times- and I don't pretend to understand what being in combat is like. But I do know the difference between being fair and being unfair, and I think there has been a lot of commentary on this entire episode (which isn't over yet) by people who don't actually know what happened. And that group of people includes me. I think we need to wait to find out the facts. And that's what I am going to do henceforth.
I think it means a a great deal for us to be fair, and wait for judgment on this whole issue. It is not at all clear what happened, and it is not at all clear what additionally happened to result in his release.
I have not served in combat- or in the military at all, although I worked in military hospitals several times- and I don't pretend to understand what being in combat is like. But I do know the difference between being fair and being unfair, and I think there has been a lot of commentary on this entire episode (which isn't over yet) by people who don't actually know what happened. And that group of people includes me. I think we need to wait to find out the facts. And that's what I am going to do henceforth.
There's no good any of you getting on your high horse with me about it so don't start. Like Pete, we have been completely out of the loop on this one time wise so no idea of the build up or history. So hey, apologies for there being 'other countries' out here without the all seeing eagle eye of Captain America.
The video 'evidence' they presented was 'wishy washy' at best (IMO) and was battered into some kind of odd shape by that blonde harridan. The only indisputable 'fact' I got from it was the guy walked off post. I got about 8 minutes into it and turned it off for that reason - I wanted to hear more (perhaps a full sentence?) from them.
I am sorry, it's just not the kind of 'investigative reporting' that I am used to.
Sounded like the guy was more of a nutjob than anything - what the heck was he doing in a front line unit?
The video 'evidence' they presented was 'wishy washy' at best (IMO) and was battered into some kind of odd shape by that blonde harridan. The only indisputable 'fact' I got from it was the guy walked off post. I got about 8 minutes into it and turned it off for that reason - I wanted to hear more (perhaps a full sentence?) from them.
I am sorry, it's just not the kind of 'investigative reporting' that I am used to.
Sounded like the guy was more of a nutjob than anything - what the heck was he doing in a front line unit?
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
Yeah, he seems to have been a bit of an oddball loner type. Smoked a pipe and read a lot, which apparently didn't endear him with his platoon mates. Supposedly was pretty gung ho and "into the mission" when he arrived but gradually became disillusioned with the war over time and more interested in helping the local Afghans.
Very strange case all around.
Very strange case all around.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
I have. But more importantly so had the six people interviewed who were in his platoon, and so were the six who died looking for him.
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Ditto.
And what do you mean by "derogatory comments"? Are you saying that reporting the comments of those who were there is somehow being "derogatory"???
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
But not everyone in his platoon thinks badly of him. That's the point- we're not getting the complete story, not even close. Instead we have a lot of folks starting with their pre-existing agenda and fitting the little that IS available into that.
The half-bakery is working overtime, here. We have a steady diet of half-baked ideas and uninformed opinions. There will be plenty of time to decide about this when a lot more information comes out. That hasn't happened yet.
The half-bakery is working overtime, here. We have a steady diet of half-baked ideas and uninformed opinions. There will be plenty of time to decide about this when a lot more information comes out. That hasn't happened yet.
I'm hearing more and more that the Obama administration is going to interrogate this Bergdhal guy and if it appears that he was truly a deserter prosecute him to the full extent of military law.
Gee....imagine that....the Obama administration NOT jumping to conclusions based on the statements of individuals who may or may not have been biased by what their perception of Bergdhal was...conducting an investigation and if that investigation casts doubt on the "wandered off and got captured" story, following up with a vigorous prosecution.
What could be wrong with that?
Oh....yeah.....it might prove that the Obama administration did the right thing, much to the chagrin of those among us who are desperate for the Obama administration to appear inept.
So glad Jimbo, for one, saw things my way when I said early on that we were jumping to conclusions without enough information:
Cheers to those who would ASSUME innocence until proven guilty...that IS the foundation of our American system of justice...yes, I know there are differences between military procedure and civilian procedure, but AFAIK there is not a presumption of guilt in either.
Doug
Gee....imagine that....the Obama administration NOT jumping to conclusions based on the statements of individuals who may or may not have been biased by what their perception of Bergdhal was...conducting an investigation and if that investigation casts doubt on the "wandered off and got captured" story, following up with a vigorous prosecution.
What could be wrong with that?
Oh....yeah.....it might prove that the Obama administration did the right thing, much to the chagrin of those among us who are desperate for the Obama administration to appear inept.
So glad Jimbo, for one, saw things my way when I said early on that we were jumping to conclusions without enough information:
Cheers to those who would ASSUME innocence until proven guilty...that IS the foundation of our American system of justice...yes, I know there are differences between military procedure and civilian procedure, but AFAIK there is not a presumption of guilt in either.
Doug
That's right! The B.O. admin didn't find out about this until they read about it in the NY Times!
I'm now of the opinion that this has been largely whipped up by the anti-administration camp for obvious purposes.
Truth is somewhere in the middle but simpler than you make it out to be.
Israelis/Palestinians have been swapping prisoners for years and it hasn't appeared to have led to an surge in kidnappings as if the threat would EVER go away in conflicts such as these.
The "No negotiations with terrorists" stance looks pretty stupid as you just know the Americans and Taliban have been in secret talks for a long time now. It's just hubris... face... call it what you will.. it's obsolete politics.
Truth is somewhere in the middle but simpler than you make it out to be.
Israelis/Palestinians have been swapping prisoners for years and it hasn't appeared to have led to an surge in kidnappings as if the threat would EVER go away in conflicts such as these.
The "No negotiations with terrorists" stance looks pretty stupid as you just know the Americans and Taliban have been in secret talks for a long time now. It's just hubris... face... call it what you will.. it's obsolete politics.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Too bloody right. As a matter of fact, politics as we know and loathe it has been obsolete for a damn long time in the first place.
Pat
Supporter
While paddock efforts to paint Sgt Berghahl as villain or victim at this point may be premature political ejaculations but I'm not really seeing that here.
I'm astonished that you regard objections to the release of five top Taliban leaders political "hubris"?
Some are trying to cast objections to the swap to about Sgt Bergdhal in order to obscure the idiocy of reloading the Taliban's senior leadership in Afghanistan. These are not some Hamas rock throwers being exchanged, they are mass murdering war criminals, some of which have committed to return to the fight.
What is not ever mentioned is the number of lives lost in securing their initial capture.
