US education vs the world

Jim Craik · Sep 11, 2011

Ron,

That is just what I Have been saying.

The best and brightest from around the world have come here.

If you walked around Alamogordo during the Manhattan project, you would have heard accents from around the world. Their children stayed here and the children of the folks you just mentioned will be just Americans.

Just as it's always been!

The children educated in the US, just like always a percentage do very very well, most OK some poorly, the only thing that has changed:

Now those few very bright US students compete with the whole world. Just due to the numbers alone, I'm surprised there are any US students in these programs.

Guys, these smart folks do come here, to the US, why is that?

This is a good thing for the US!

Gravy · Sep 11, 2011

No different here in the UK...

The Sciences (and I include Engineering in that) are hugely on the decline in terms of student numbers. Too many people going to university (we have a ridiculous situation here where almost 50% of kids now go to university). This, due to the law of unintended consequences, has effectively skyrocketed the number of "soft" degrees available...

Media Studies anyone??

International Studies??

OK, these are valid in many ways, but they are also much easier than a degree in Civil Engineering, or Physics, or any number of other degree courses available.

Oh, and the secondary effect of all of this - A degree has become a devalued asset. You can't begin to suggest that 50% of any workforce requires a degree to go about their work. As a nation in the late seventies we turned our backs on working apprenticeships as a model that had worked for centuries (well, our governments did).

What a stupid, stupid mistake. There are hundreds of trades for which a university degree is an irrelevance, but where on the job learning, training and skills building are paramount, but hey...we don't do that anymore...

Such a shame!

Ron Earp · Sep 11, 2011

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Jim Craik said:
Ron,

That is just what I Have been saying.

The best and brightest from around the world have come here.

Guys, these smart folks do come here, to the US, why is that?

This is a good thing for the US!

Jim, talented scientists and engineers come here from all over the world to further their education because we have a great infrastructure that fosters deep learning and innovation. Folks come here and do postdocs, Ph.D.s, Masters degrees, MDs, etc. I'm very familiar with the process as I went through it myself. But the point I'm trying to make is they come here and get a good education, and then many of them return from whence they came.

Gravy said:
What a stupid, stupid mistake. There are hundreds of trades for which a university degree is an irrelevance, but where on the job learning, training and skills building are paramount, but hey...we don't do that anymore...

Such a shame!

Amen to that. You do not need a four, five, six, ten, twelve, etc. year degree program to make a good living. Trades should be celebrated career paths.

I sure am glad some guys still go that route. I know some extremely successful heating/air guys, welders, and fabricators that do well for themselves and offers great services to those in need. They have will though, something that is lacking these days. Which is easier - have the family pay for a four year business degree or strike out at eighteen as a welder's apprentice?

Jim Craik · Sep 11, 2011

Jim, talented scientists and engineers come here from all over the world to further their education because we have a great infrastructure that fosters deep learning and innovation. Folks come here and do postdocs, Ph.D.s, Masters degrees, MDs, etc. I'm very familiar with the process as I went through it myself. But the point I'm trying to make is they come here and get a good education, and then many of them return from whence they came.

posted by Ron

Ron,

My point here is that this tread, titled: "US education vs the world"

Started by Al in another of his America is doomed threads, says our education system it horrible, compared to the rest of the world.

My point is that we have been hearing this same lie for over 50 years, and it's still not true.

If it were true, then Americas best and brightest would be going to India, China, Japan or Norway for a "GOOD" education.

But you all know that is not happening, they all come here (the lucky ones anyway) and most stay or at least try and stay.

Ron, Al,

When the world stops coming here and Americans start leaving for a "GOOD" education we will talk! Until then it's just more propaganda, spewed by folks who should know better.

Jim Craik · Sep 11, 2011

Al,

Here are some US high school education rankings. It seems that just like your divorce post, this shows that the red states are causing most of the problems.

Rank State Number of High Schools* Number eligible for full analysis Awarded bronze or better Bronze or better medal (% of total) Awarded silver or gold Silver or gold (% of total) Awarded Gold Gold (% of total)
1 Connecticut 193 143 16 8.3% 12 6.2% 0 0.0%
2 Massachusetts 345 253 37 10.7% 21 6.1% 2 0.6%
3 California 1,839 893 170 9.2% 110 6.0% 20 1.1%
4 New Jersey 397 299 41 10.3% 23 5.8% 5 1.3%
5 New York 1,041 676 122 11.7% 53 5.1% 23 2.2%
6 Illinois 742 296 70 9.4% 37 5.0% 3 0.4%
7 Vermont 63 39 8 12.7% 3 4.8% 0 0.0%
8 Washington 453 211 51 11.3% 21 4.6% 4 0.9%
9 Maine 115 77 10 8.7% 5 4.3% 1 0.9%
9 Maryland** 231 173 15 6.5% 10 4.3% 0 0.0%
11 Florida 608 367 43 7.1% 24 3.9% 10 1.6%
12 New Hampshire** 78 59 8 10.3% 3 3.8% 0 0.0%
13 Rhode Island 54 21 4 7.4% 2 3.7% 0 0.0%
14 Texas 1,425 669 122 8.6% 50 3.5% 11 0.8%
15 Colorado 338 146 32 9.5% 11 3.3% 1 0.3%
16 Nevada 94 54 5 5.3% 3 3.2% 0 0.0%
16 Oregon 283 100 33 11.7% 9 3.2% 0 0.0%
18 Kentucky 258 148 32 12.4% 8 3.1% 0 0.0%
19 North Carolina 440 314 44 10.0% 13 3.0% 2 0.5%
20 Georgia 380 288 29 7.6% 11 2.9% 1 0.3%
21 Delaware 37 28 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 1 2.7%
21 District of Columbia 37 12 4 10.8% 1 2.7% 0 0.0%
23 Virginia 320 221 36 11.3% 8 2.5% 2 0.6%
23 Arizona** 400 128 36 9.0% 10 2.5% 2 0.5%
25 Pennsylvania 676 356 69 10.2% 16 2.4% 1 0.1%
26 Michigan 864 324 75 8.7% 20 2.3% 1 0.1%
27 Utah 181 71 15 8.3% 4 2.2% 0 0.0%
27 Indiana** 366 235 30 8.2% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
27 Alabama 372 101 45 12.1% 8 2.2% 1 0.3%
30 Louisiana** 316 57 31 9.8% 6 1.9% 1 0.3%
31 Minnesota 604 155 39 6.5% 11 1.8% 0 0.0%
32 Wyoming**# 63 15 8 12.7% 1 1.6% 0 0.0%
33 South Carolina 200 137 22 11.0% 3 1.5% 1 0.5%
34 New Mexico 138 53 21 15.2% 2 1.4% 0 0.0%
34 Missouri 489 100 41 8.4% 7 1.4% 1 0.2%
36 Tennessee# 320 138 27 8.4% 4 1.3% 2 0.6%
37 Idaho# 165 42 19 11.5% 2 1.2% 1 0.6%
38 Alaska 97 25 7 7.2% 1 1.0% 0 0.0%
39 Ohio** 818 356 46 5.6% 7 0.9% 1 0.1%
40 West Virginia# 121 55 19 15.7% 1 0.8% 0 0.0%
40 Iowa 378 71 47 12.4% 3 0.8% 0 0.0%
42 South Dakota 136 20 13 9.6% 1 0.7% 0 0.0%
42 Arkansas** 274 165 38 13.9% 2 0.7% 0 0.0%
44 Wisconsin 500 240 50 10.0% 3 0.6% 0 0.0%
45 Mississippi 245 66 40 16.3% 1 0.4% 0 0.0%
46 Kansas 318 62 43 13.5% 1 0.3% 1 0.3%
47 Hawaii** 48 35 8 16.7% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 North Dakota 108 12 13 12.0% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
47 Montana# 114 29 12 10.5% 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
Not ranked Oklahoma*** 411 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Not ranked Nebraska*** 250 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
* Totals 18,743 8,535 1,750 9.3 561 3.0% 100 0.5%

Jim Craik · Sep 11, 2011

lonesomebob said:
The institutions of higher education are more interested in propagandizing the population than educating them in the traditional manner.

The Statists need a dumbed down, brainwashed citizenry to accept the loss of their freedoms to the centralized government that is getting closer and closer to reality here.

posted by Bob

Bob,

According to your quote:

It seems that it's conservatives that are dumbing down and brainwashing the citizens"

Al Wohlstrom · Sep 11, 2011

Jim Craik said:
posted by Ron

Ron,

My point here is that this tread, titled: "US education vs the world"

Started by Al in another of his America is doomed threads, says our education system it horrible, compared to the rest of the world.

My point is that we have been hearing this same lie for over 50 years, and it's still not true.

If it were true, then Americas best and brightest would be going to India, China, Japan or Norway for a "GOOD" education.

But you all know that is not happening, they all come here (the lucky ones anyway) and most stay or at least try and stay.

Ron, Al,

When the world stops coming here and Americans start leaving for a "GOOD" education we will talk! Until then it's just more propaganda, spewed by folks who should know better.

Jim, If you think that this is a "America is doomed thread", then say it. Don't put your thoughts to my reason for posting this thread. I thought it was an interesting infographic by a reputable source. For the money we spend per student (25% more than the next country) compared to the rest of the world , we should be at the top, we are not. I wonder why?

Jim Craik · Sep 12, 2011

Al Wohlstrom said:
Jim, If you think that this is a "America is doomed thread", then say it. Don't put your thoughts to my reason for posting this thread. I thought it was an interesting infographic by a reputable source. For the money we spend per student (25% more than the next country) compared to the rest of the world , we should be at the top, we are not. I wonder why?

Al for someone who says he loves America, you sure spend a lot of time pointing out what you see as its failings! Last week it was divorce, this week education...........................

Al, you wonder why US education is not at the top?

I suggest you look at the state rankings, it appears that the more conservative the state, the poorer their education!

It appears that education is important to you, I think you should look into what is wrong with these under performing red states!

It seems this selfish consevative thing is not working, perhaps electing some liberal politicions would help, it certinaly seems to help the best performing states.

Al Wohlstrom · Sep 12, 2011

Jim, That's how we get better, by realizing our short comings and improving.

Jim Craik · Sep 12, 2011

Al,

Fair enough, that is how we get better.

I know I can often be too quick to jump to the defensive.

But in fairness to me, you often post "problems with America" in an attempt to paint liberals in a bad light.

One of the few drawbacks to having dyslexia is that we tend to be too defensive, a little too much "me against the world".

That said, I will try and look initially at your posts with a more open mind.

Al Wohlstrom · Sep 12, 2011

Peace Jim!

Jim Craik · Sep 12, 2011

Thanks,

Goodnight Al.

Mark Pickford · Sep 13, 2011

:love:

Cliffbeer2 · Sep 13, 2011

Have to respectfully disagree with Jim here.

It might occur to us that one of the reasons we have been in this economic malaise the last six or or so years is because the tipping point is being reached in terms of the offshoring of low/middle mgmt tech jobs (China and India), and the almost 100% complete offshoring of manufacturing of consumer products. Even high level US tech jobs are being squeezed because of the same offshoring trend. Simply put, people are just as smart/educated in places like India, and they work for half or less than US wages. Jobs are the economic engine that powers a domestic economy, and we are losing our jobs steadily and surely to lower wage economies. This trend would not be happening if those lower wage economies weren't equally (or better) educated and capable of replacing a US worker. They are.

With all due respect, Silicon Valley may be a hot bed of tech ideas (it is...I've done a lot of work in the Valley and know it well) but it is just a very small part of the overall US economy and job base. Minnesota, Alabama, Texas, or Vermont (no offense to anyone on the forum here....) ain't no Silicon Valley.

Jim Craik · Sep 13, 2011

Cliff,

Admittedly, life here in the valley must be misleading. I do know that much of the country is suffering from the current economic downturn.

But Cliff my comments were for the most part aimed at Al's OP, concerning the US school system falling behind the world.

I'm just not seeing that, the world's best and brightest are still coming here for a good education and for good high paying jobs. The valley is full of folks from all over the world.

Our fathers America is gone, it's now a world economy. A College graduate today must compete with not just grads from his town but the World!

I know is can be tough, loosing a job to someone in Mexico/China.........

But big picture this is a very good thing. The world is not a zero sum game, when residents of former 3rd World Countries have decent incomes and decent living conditions, we all win.

OhioMark · Sep 17, 2011

The Department of Education was founded around 1979, and unfortunately they've
done nothing that resembles educate since then, and our test scores have declined
since their inception.

Pete · Sep 18, 2011

OhioMark said:
The Department of Education was founded around 1979, and unfortunately they've
done nothing that resembles educate since then, and our test scores have declined
since their inception.

Now that sounds just like Australia.

Gravy · Sep 18, 2011

Pete said:
Now that sounds just like Australia.

Nah Pete mate, That's England

US education vs the world

Jim Craik

Graham

Ron Earp

Jim Craik

Jim Craik

Jim Craik

Al Wohlstrom

Jim Craik

Al Wohlstrom

Jim Craik

Al Wohlstrom

Jim Craik

Mark

Cliff Beer

Jim Craik

OhioMark

Pete McCluskey.

Graham

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