Wikileaks?

[Jack Duha]

This is the "Computer Age"
And it's still in it's infancy.
Governments try to attract the brightest minds to keep them on the cutting edge, but information technologies move so quickly their bureaucracies can't keep ahead of it, let alone, how to protect it.

Pure and simple, Idiots let this happen.

Jack

 

[Roark_John]

This is the "Computer Age"
And it's still in it's infancy.
Governments try to attract the brightest minds to keep them on the cutting edge, but information technologies move so quickly their bureaucracies can't keep ahead of it, let alone, how to protect it.

Pure and simple, Idiots let this happen.

Jack

You're right...idiots let this happen. On both sides of the fence. The idiots we put in power to look after our interests, and the idiots that put them there.

So what part of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press are irrelevent when it comes to the government? That same government derives it's powers from the same document that established which rights are to be protected by that government.

Since when is censorship a hallmark of freedom? We criticize the Chinese, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, etc for doing this to their people. We engage in espionage and counter-espionage around the globe to further our goals of world domination, yet we will go to war with a nation that does the same to us.

You can't have it both ways and call it a legitimate government.

Government beauracracy doesn't exist to protect it's corrupt members or support its own motives. It's there to provide a function of value for the people it represents.

At what point are the citizens going to realize that their worst enemy are the very people they give the authority to protect their rights and violate them at the same time?

The power does not begin & end with the government...it begins & ends with the people.

People who would trade freedom for "safety" to the very government that labels them criminals for exposing their dirty laundry deserve neither freedom or safety.

When people stop questioning the government and holding it responsible, democracy vanishes.

The puppeteer tactics and cowboy brinksmanship that the government officials have initiated to promote & prolong their powerbase is what puts this country in jeopardy...not the leaking of documents that exposes that behavior.

I'm personally sickened that I have been involved in numerous combat actions that have cost me friends & family, all to uphold this twisted republic. I'm just as guilty as anyone in this mess, but my complicity is due to belief in the honor of service in support of this great nation. Those who sit on the couch and bitch about meaningless shit and do nothing, need to take a long hard look at themselves in the mirror and search the corners of their minds & souls to figure out just what is worth saving.

 

[BenL]

This is the "Computer Age"
And it's still in it's infancy.
Governments try to attract the brightest minds to keep them on the cutting edge, but information technologies move so quickly their bureaucracies can't keep ahead of it, let alone, how to protect it.

What idiot designed a secure system that allows a low level user to download thousands of files? He should just be able to view the relevant files, one at a time. A normal user doesn't need to view 500,000 files at once.

What idiot allowed a low level user to have access to a secure network with a PC that has a CD Burner and/or USB ports for saving the data?

You can remove CD drives, and if you can't get a computer without USB ports, it's common to either cut the wires or fill the ports with epoxy.

This is not rocket science, the Orange Book came out in 1985.

Pure and simple, Idiots let this happen.
Jack

I agree with this point.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I don't have a problem with corrupt people being exposed at all, in fact I welcome it. My problem is the leaking of sensitive and classified documents that could expose someone in deep cover, or jeopardise a planned military operation, thereby risking the lives of the very people who are fighting to protect his right to freedom of speech.

 

[Roark_John]

I don't have a problem with corrupt people being exposed at all, in fact I welcome it. My problem is the leaking of sensitive and classified documents that could expose someone in deep cover, or jeopardise a planned military operation, thereby risking the lives of the very people who are fighting to protect his right to freedom of speech.

Pete...but who sanctioned those classifications? When it comes to cancer, you must sacrifice some healthy tissue to get all the cancerous cells. The corruption runs so deep it's impossible to slap a band-aid over it and call it good.

Any action to promote secrecy of corruption is criminal...yet when it's done by the government, it's somehow legitimized? Come again?

Why exactly is a spy's life worth more than a soldier's, sailor's, marine's or airmen's?

Can you say for certain that these planned military ops are legal, justified & necessary?

At this point it's not about Assange or even the corrupt bastards who were involved with all the dirty shit that was going on...it's about every single American who will be affected by those actions.

Did you get to read any of the stuff before the site was blocked? Need-to-know, my ass! Who the fuck do these people think they are to tell ME that I don't need to know, when I'm putting my ass on the line?

I wasn't able to dig very deep, nor do I have the storage to download even a fraction of what was available, but it's disturbing. My outrage is deep & palpable...the distaste is visceral. It's simply incomprehensible some of the shit that was going down in the name of "democracy".

 

[Jack Duha]

It's amazing, the future world is becoming so "base" with info/travel/cultural exchange advancements. Yet, everybody is still the same.
Some are not the "Sharpest in the drawer".
Some have "More money than brains".
I just try to appreciate the life we share. Especially simple things that work extremely well!

Like GT40s.

Jack

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

John if you re-read my post I did not mention spies and I did not say that a spy's life is worth more than a soldier, sailor or airman. The Marines can look after themselves:laugh:. I believe that all life is precious including the spy as long as he is on our side.
When I used the term deep cover I was referring to the Australian S.A.S. troops.
Of course I don't know who classified the documents, or why.
Surely you are not suggesting that all military plans and documents should not be classified and the public should have access before an operation is carried out? Maybe we could send an email to Al-qaeda saying we are going to be going along this road to village X in three days, plenty of time to plant your I.E.D's boys?
I repeat the bloke is a criminal and a grub.

 

[Pat]

So let me get this straight...outing Valerie Plame as political retribution was OK...but outing all these sources who are placing our country in unnecessary danger due to their manipulations, isn't OK?

What exactly do you want this world to end up like? These Machiavellian machinations are just as bad as anything going on in all these despot-nations we claim to despise...but you're ok with that?

Get your facts right John and quit taking your information from lame movies. In July 2003, Richard Armitage told columnist Robert Novak that Ambassador Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and Novak mentioned it in a column. It's a crime to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA officer. But Armitage didn't yet realize what he had done. It was not "political retribution". I also don't think the PFC was able to crack the Bank of America hard drive. And no, I am not OK with privelidged information put in the street. The net effect will be that anyone would be insane to now confide in any US diplomat. You decide if that improves our ability to conduct foreign policy.

 

[Roark_John]

John if you re-read my post I did not mention spies and I did not say that a spy's life is worth more than a soldier, sailor or airman. The Marines can look after themselves:laugh:. I believe that all life is precious including the spy as long as he is on our side.
When I used the term deep cover I was referring to the Australian S.A.S. troops.
Of course I don't know who classified the documents, or why.
Surely you are not suggesting that all military plans and documents should not be classified and the public should have access before an operation is carried out? Maybe we could send an email to Al-qaeda saying we are going to be going along this road to village X in three days, plenty of time to plant your I.E.D's boys?
I repeat the bloke is a criminal and a grub.

I respect and appreciate every members' service, including our allies. I'm not for buddy-fucking or setting people up for failure.

I really hate to say this...but I think sometimes the mess we find ourselves in is a mess of our own making. Unfortunately that means that our boys will bleed, rather than the pompous diplomats and elected officials that caused the problem. Wish it were the other way around, I surely do.

No, I don't think that all military plans and documents should be available and unclassified. I do believe that there should be far more transparency of HOW we came to find ourselves here, as well as WHAT we've done while we're there.

I don't think that documents should be locked away under the guise of "classified" status for 50 years before it's available under the FOIA, only after being heavily redacted and censored...that's what allows this multi-generational policy of foreign involvement and chess-board maneuvering that has beome the norm. Toppling regimes isn't exactly good business in protecting our interests on the home-front.

I don't feel any safer now that we've gone after Saddam Hussein...do you? Like it or not, he was a stabilizing force in the Middle East. But what do I know, I'm not some black-tie diplomat hob-nobbing at $10,000 a plate dinners, trying to figure out how to involve my country in yet another debacle further down the line, all "in the best interests" of the nation...of course.

I've seen all the politicking, CYA sportsmanship, deal-making, hand-shaking, double-speaking, back-room deals that I care to. Sometimes enough is enough...you don't have to like the man, his agenda, or his ideals...but they're a damn sight better than the men, the agendas and the ideals being foisted on us by our own government.

I'll reserve judgement as to his character and his guilt...I find it hard to believe that the same government that was so mired in all the scandal AND tried to keep it secret is going to grant this man a fair trial or present their case in any manner that represents justice.

This seems like an old-fashioned witch hunt to me. The government saying they're right just because they're the government is a bit like a crooked President pardoning himself.

But hell, they got all the guns and all the money...they must be right.

It absolutely boggles my mind that the government put service members in harm's way by their policies and actions...but this guy is to blame if anything happens here on in. What kind of irresponsible, blame-shifting, finger-pointing, scape-goating bullshit is that? Accountability is just for journos, not World Superpowers?

I can't believe that people are OK with the mushroom treatment. Apathy will be this nation's downfall...and those receding footsteps you hear is Liberty leaving the building.

 

[Roark_John]

Get your facts right John and quit taking your information from lame movies. In July 2003, Richard Armitage told columnist Robert Novak that Ambassador Wilson's wife worked for the CIA, and Novak mentioned it in a column. It's a crime to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA officer. But Armitage didn't yet realize what he had done. It was not "political retribution". I also don't think the PFC was able to crack the Bank of America hard drive. And no, I am not OK with privelidged information put in the street. The net effect will be that anyone would be insane to now confide in any US diplomat. You decide if that improves our ability to conduct foreign policy.

Hmmm...you really believe that Armitage just casually dropped Plame's name and official capacity to a journalist, that just happened to mention it in a respected public forum? Wow, I never took D.C. for a coincidence kinda place...
That would have to be the most convenient scenario ever...sorta one of those "Perfect Storm" moments, don't ya think? Guess I'm just cynical.

Not sure where the movie reference comes into play?

That's freaking hilarious! Privileged information put on the street? Whose privilege? Guess you don't understand how an intelligence network operates...information BEGINS on the street...it's only fitting that it should end up back there.

Did you ever stop and think...if they didn't run around creating problems (remember that "evidence" they found regarding WMD's and organic links from Saddam to Al-Qaeda?...oh yeah, great intel!) and they didn't go around instigating situations in other countries (thank God we intervened in Panama & Grenada...that saved the free world for sure)...that we might not need to worry so damn much about conducting foreign policy?

Conducting is the perfect word for it...because it's orchestration of mischief on a global level. I'm glad that poor kids from Alabama ain't considered smart enough to run this country, but they're considered good enough to die in the name of this country.

Are you a citizen or a subject? I work for the government...I've seen some of the biggest SNAFU's in the last 15 years unfold in REAL TIME...I don't trust a damn word that comes down from above. I follow orders because it's my duty, that doesn't mean that I'm a sucker & a puppet.

I reckon anybody would be insane to confide in a diplomat, U.S. or otherwise. They're ladder-climbing bureaucrats who are appointed, not elected. I can't remember a U.S. Ambassador in the last 12 years who was looking after MY best interests OR the best interests of my country.

 

[Keith]

I can't believe that people are OK with the mushroom treatment. Apathy will be this nation's downfall...and those receding footsteps you hear is Liberty leaving the building.

So, are you revolting John?

 

[Garry]

John,
I can fully support your internal distrust of "men in power".Hubris is a dangerous thing especially amoung our government agencies. However, you ignore the humans who are involved in doing their jobs as best they can manage in that group of agencies, many just like yourself. To tar and feather all government workers, decision-makers, and leadership as traitors to the US Constitution is overwrought angst worthy of paranoia. There are traitors amoung us and the PFC is one of those. Wikileaks owner is just as guilty. These people have no respect for authority or the corrct procedures for addressing their opposition. There will always be nutjobs craving their 15 minutes of fame but at what expense for civilization.
I have to side with Pete and others who decry the release of diplomatic documents and military SOP documents as the worst kind of traitor. Could there be a better oversight of government and miltary abuses...of course. That is what elections are for. You will never convince me that there is a cohesive conspiricy in Washington that can agree across all levels of education, ethnicity, religion, and every other demarcation of our diverse population that can or will succeed in such a massive scale of duplicity. There are too many variables for that kind of conspiricy to succeed and too many people such as yourself (me included) that are skeptical of agency over-reach. Has it happened, of course, but there are procedures and laws to address this over-reach in due process. Spilling the "beans" is not the way to do this no matter the justification. Bin Laden anyone?

Garry

 

[Keith]

Hmmm, seems like this 'gentleman' has disappeared following the story that he has been 'invited' to Sweden by the authorities to explain some possibly illegal matters of 'a sexual nature'.

It has been my privilege to leak this to you..

 

[Roark_John]

So, are you revolting John?

Sometimes the most powerful weapon is withholding what was formerly given freely. Ask any husband or boyfriend!

 

[Roark_John]

Hmmm, seems like this 'gentleman' has disappeared following the story that he has been 'invited' to Sweden by the authorities to explain some possibly illegal matters of 'a sexual nature'.

It has been my privilege to leak this to you..

It's funny, because in August the prosecutor who was in charge of this case went on record with the media as saying that there would be no arrest warrant issued, and the victims said that there was no crime...they had a problem with his attitude.

His warrant was issued earlier today because he went into hiding and didn't make himself available to talk to the police & prosecutor regarding matters related to the previous investigation. I bet that has nothing to do with any diplomatic "pressure" from the U.S....

If you think it's noble or just to use the legal system so cavalierly and manipulatively, what is the point? That's not justice or legal...it's coercive force by the government.

I'm completely baffled as to how it's made out that governments can bend, twist, or break any law or legitimacy of authority so long as they get their way?

 

[Roark_John]

John,
I can fully support your internal distrust of "men in power".Hubris is a dangerous thing especially amoung our government agencies. However, you ignore the humans who are involved in doing their jobs as best they can manage in that group of agencies, many just like yourself.

To tar and feather all government workers, decision-makers, and leadership as traitors to the US Constitution is overwrought angst worthy of paranoia. There are traitors amoung us and the PFC is one of those. Wikileaks owner is just as guilty.

So let me get this straight...Assange is a traitor who isn't a citizen, but Bush isn't for forcing an invasion of another country? Being president does NOT entitle one to pre-emptive invasion.

I just can't wrap my head around the justifications people are using to support the governments actions...patriotism is about love of country NOT love of government.

These people have no respect for authority or the corrct procedures for addressing their opposition. There will always be nutjobs craving their 15 minutes of fame but at what expense for civilization.

Hmmm...again, Bush did the country far more harm than Assange ever could...but that's ok right? Are you serious?

I have to side with Pete and others who decry the release of diplomatic documents and military SOP documents as the worst kind of traitor. Could there be a better oversight of government and miltary abuses...of course. That is what elections are for.

If you don't know what is or isn't being overseen, you don't know who to elect or re-elect...and what about all those appointed postions that we have absolutely no say in? Please don't try to tell me that you honestly believe the democratic process is adequate...it hasn't worked yet, what is going to suddenly make it effective?

You will never convince me that there is a cohesive conspiricy in Washington that can agree across all levels of education, ethnicity, religion, and every other demarcation of our diverse population that can or will succeed in such a massive scale of duplicity.

I agree, I don't believe in massive conspiracies either. That doesn't mean that all kinds of crooked & evil shit isn't done everyday under the guise of authority & legitimacy.

There are too many variables for that kind of conspiricy to succeed and too many people such as yourself (me included) that are skeptical of agency over-reach. Has it happened, of course, but there are procedures and laws to address this over-reach in due process. Spilling the "beans" is not the way to do this no matter the justification. Bin Laden anyone?

Garry

Really...procedures and laws to address this over-reach in due process? You mean like a President who resigned to avoid impeachment for authorizing a burglary using the CIA in an effort to rig an election, and was pardoned to avoid prosecution? You mean like a President scape-goating a uniformed member of service when he was caught in one of those back-room diplomatic deals? You mean like a President pre-emptively invading another country with intel that was later found to be fabricated and will never face prosecution for an illegal act of war?

Jesus, man...this shit has been going on for DECADES...from the top level on down. For every Charlie Rangel who gets a slap on the wrist, there are 100 more who escape notice and punishment.

Name one effective investigation & prosecution that resulted in a high-ranking member of government ever paying the true price? Sure we've seen what the gov can do to assholes like Madoff, but have we EVER seen what the gov can do to assholes within their ranks?

You know I'm right, you're just mad at this Assange guy because the gov was dumb enough to leave it's back-door open for easy access to pilfering...not because what the gov has been doing is wrong.

With all this crap being classified and exempt from FOIA, just how the hell do you expect due process & established procedure to actually accomplish any kind of successful oversight? It can't! You know it and I know it.

The gov is wrong, perhaps Assange is wrong. Doesn't make Assange worse. Responsibility lies where it will...you cannot have a system of morals & ethics based off the philosophy of two wrongs make a right.

 

[Keith]

So, if the authorities are so 'repressive' how come he didn't meet with unfortunate accident first time he did this?

And the feeble DOS attack. Is that really the best the CIA could come up with?

There is a huge credibility gap between the way Hollywood paints these agencies, and their actual abilities and if you don't believe me, read the autobiography of Miles Copeland and the rest of his bunglers.

Remember that the People generally don't want to know any of this stuff - they want Governments to handle all of this for them. The 'People' have the opium of the media to lull them into a soporiphic state and they are not bothered about any of this, trust me. If anyone thinks it's so 'anti-democracy' please run for office and show us how an honest man would do it, but I'll bet a left arm that within days (hours even) you will be actively be in possession of 'secret information & activities' that is withheld for the 'good of the people'

That's the way it has always been, that's the way it is, and that is the way it will always be unless 'the People' really give a shit and demand change, actively, not jerking off down the pub or ranting on the web.

 

[Roark_John]

So, if the authorities are so 'repressive' how come he didn't meet with unfortunate accident first time he did this?

I would imagine because the administration is politically astute...politicians are funny that way, they make gaffes but are well-trained in the arts of deception and double-speak. Do you really think the world stage would give the U.S. a free pass if they did something so overt?

And the feeble DOS attack. Is that really the best the CIA could come up with?

Was it feeble? Was it the CIA? In order to maintain a semblance of credibility the government has been known to employ plausible deniability...

There is a huge credibility gap between the way Hollywood paints these agencies, and their actual abilities and if you don't believe me, read the autobiography of Miles Copeland and the rest of his bunglers.

I'm not a delusional person that believes in Hollywood fantasy. Passing the buck to the bungling crew that broke into Watergate is absolving Nixon of his complicity and ringleading of the whole mess. Whether he chose an incompetent crew or not, he is still a fucking sociopath.

(This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about...if these organizations don't have the coordinated effort and ability to stop a PFC from walking off with 250,000
classified documents and passing them to Assange...how the fuck do you task these people with the responsibility of maintaining our national security and defense? It's laughable to suggest they are capable of either! You cannot have it both ways, it's a paradox at odds with reality.)

Remember that the People generally don't want to know any of this stuff - they want Governments to handle all of this for them. The 'People' have the opium of the media to lull them into a soporiphic state and they are not bothered about any of this, trust me.

I agree...but this argument does not justify misbehavior on behalf of the government. We're adults here...we both believe in personal responsibility and you're granting them immunity from that concept with your justifications and excuse-making.

If anyone thinks it's so 'anti-democracy' please run for office and show us how an honest man would do it, but I'll bet a left arm that within days (hours even) you will be actively be in possession of 'secret information & activities' that is withheld for the 'good of the people'

What would I keep secret? Nuclear launch codes, strategic planning for national defense, weaknesses in our inclusive infrastructure...and that's about it.

There might be a few more that I'm neglecting, but I truly do believe that if our public were allowed access to what's going on behind closed doors, there would be LESS actually going on behind closed doors to worry about.

That's the way it has always been, that's the way it is, and that is the way it will always be unless 'the People' really give a shit and demand change, actively, not jerking off down the pub or ranting on the web.

I do give a shit, I'm not jerking off down at the pub, and my ranting on the web is to attempt to wake the complacent from their acceptance of systemized abuse.

I don't want to shake Assange's hand or pin a medal on his chest. But I don't want to burn him at the stake either. This is an old-fashioned witch hunt and it's disturbing to hear it's justification from otherwise sane men.

How exactly am I to effect change when people don't care or are mired in jingoistic rhetoric substituting love of government for love of country?

 

[Keith]

Sorry John that wasn't a you as in YOU it was a general term really. I could have said 'ONE' but then you would have thought me a stuck up twat.

I agree that certainly there will be a lot more 'care' taken now, but because of his dumb handling of the situation, these kind of issues may get even more 'secret' now.

Instead of a shotgun approach which has lost him a lot of support, he should have teased everyone with a selective and intuitive approach and not angered so many people.

Very few whistle blowers do so for altruistic humanist reasons. Revenge, money, jealousy, insecurity, dupes etc etc. and my point is that anyone really concerned about what is done in our name, would not have simply dumped it all out there.

You'll notice that even the media, who already have most of the stuff, are not exactly rushing to publish, and yes, I do think he is rabidly anti American. (We in the UK apparently don't count anymore because we can't fight and have no experience)

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

+1 Keith, the guy is a self serving Moron, I don't give a toss if he published that Hilary thought Obama was a jerk, what I am angry about is he is putting the young men and women of our defense forces in more jeopardy than they already are.