Intro and request for Info on new build.

[Tony]

Hi All ,

My names Tony. brand new to the forum but a long time fan of motor racing and in my previous years have had my hands on a few cars and engines like everyone here.

I'll start of by saying a big thankyou for this forum and the people on it that share info, the 40 and what surrounds its memory, existence and life into the future would not be the same without the people contributing to knowledge and making parts available.

I'm looking into starting off a Mk I build (from scratch) and would like to go the monocoque route - knowing that it would be a major undertaking. My questions are (possibly better suited to the Tech chassis sub topic), but ill start it off here:

What would be better, Steal or Aluminium?
Are most Aluminium builds rived or welded? As opposed to Steel being spot welded/ conventional
The current set of plans floating around from FAV, are these the only available plans to work off?
Care there any CAD assemblies of the monocoque around to get an idea of how each parts goes together? (apart from whats on grabcad)
Are there any guys out there making parts from the plans that would be willing to work combine or share info?
Where would be a suitable supplier of the body/shell parts? (i hear some kit outfits dont like to sell just the body shells by themselves)

Thanks!

 

[Brian Kissel]

Welcome to GT40S Tony. There are a few builders on the forum doing a rivet to rivet exact mono chassis. But to get these prints are hard to come by, very expensive and very time consuming. Others will chime in on this I’m sure. In my opinion only, you might consider a tube chassis build first and then perhaps you second car a hand built mono. But again, this is my opinion only and others will have a different one I’m sure. Read ALL the build threads and you can see what’s out there.
Enjoy the forum !!
Regards Brian

 

[Ryan L]

The exact mono is a complicated process. I have probably 6 or 7 years in it now, just researching, collecting parts and collecting plans and collating information. I've spent many hours overlaying plans/photos/CAD drawings to try and work out missing information. What i have now exists partly in my head and partly as a CAD model. The Cad model has not yet been finished and the individual parts within the model have not been converted into flat patterns that would allow someone to create apart from it. All it does is represent a 3d shape. A lot of the information needed to convert it to a flat pattern or to make the part is still in my head. the person that has drawn them will have made allowances in the cad model for proposed construction methodologies, tooling and processes. There are still some parts in my model that I have drawn which I need to come back to and refine.

A number of the original FAV plans are floating around on the web (google search, particularly some of the cad repositories) and in books like "GT40 Uncovered". It takes some time to get your head around it all. You need to have some understanding of drawing revisions and how they were undertaken on velum transparency sheets in the 60s.

My model also has a number of different options that I was thinking about at the time which I can turn on and off depending on which car I decide to build. This has changed over time as information and parts have come to hand and as my confidence in the project has improved.
There is a number here that are attempting a mono, and will be happy to help if you have specific questions.

The good thing about a scratch build is you can make a start without having to break the bank and work out if it's for you along the way. you will learn a lot and meet (maybe only virtually) people along the way. We are all busy though and there will be questions, but the only way to know if it's for you is to start. You may find details that others have not seen or not deemed important.

I initially started with a tube steel frame concept for my build that morphed into a monocoque project.
there are some that are incorporating elements of both steel tube space frame and monocoque bulkheads or portals.
there are sheet alloy monocoque chassis, constructed in a similar manner to a boat (I class RCR and Absolute Pace in this class).
there are riveted alloy monocoque chassis
there are honeycombed alloy chassis like the J/Car & MK IV construction.
there is the original MK I, II & III chassis construction
there is the simpler Mk V construction
CAV have a stainless steel monocoque chassis
there are carbon tub options
there are other chassis that have been built using a Lotus Eliese tub as the basis.

I think if you are going to track the car a steel tube frame is probably the most repairable/simple construction.

you have to start somewhere though.

 

[Neil]

The exact mono is a complicated process. I have probably 6 or 7 years in it now, just researching, collecting parts and collecting plans and collating information. I've spent many hours overlaying plans/photos/CAD drawings to try and work out missing information. What i have now exists partly in my head and partly as a CAD model. The Cad model has not yet been finished and the individual parts within the model have not been converted into flat patterns that would allow someone to create apart from it. All it does is represent a 3d shape. A lot of the information needed to convert it to a flat pattern or to make the part is still in my head. the person that has drawn them will have made allowances in the cad model for proposed construction methodologies, tooling and processes. There are still some parts in my model that I have drawn which I need to come back to and refine.

A number of the original FAV plans are floating around on the web (google search, particularly some of the cad repositories) and in books like "GT40 Uncovered". It takes some time to get your head around it all. You need to have some understanding of drawing revisions and how they were undertaken on velum transparency sheets in the 60s.

My model also has a number of different options that I was thinking about at the time which I can turn on and off depending on which car I decide to build. This has changed over time as information and parts have come to hand and as my confidence in the project has improved.
There is a number here that are attempting a mono, and will be happy to help if you have specific questions.

The good thing about a scratch build is you can make a start without having to break the bank and work out if it's for you along the way. you will learn a lot and meet (maybe only virtually) people along the way. We are all busy though and there will be questions, but the only way to know if it's for you is to start. You may find details that others have not seen or not deemed important.

I initially started with a tube steel frame concept for my build that morphed into a monocoque project.
there are some that are incorporating elements of both steel tube space frame and monocoque bulkheads or portals.
there are sheet alloy monocoque chassis, constructed in a similar manner to a boat (I class RCR and Absolute Pace in this class).
there are riveted alloy monocoque chassis
there are honeycombed alloy chassis like the J/Car & MK IV construction.
there is the original MK I, II & III chassis construction
there is the simpler Mk V construction
CAV have a stainless steel monocoque chassis
there are carbon tub options
there are other chassis that have been built using a Lotus Eliese tub as the basis.

I think if you are going to track the car a steel tube frame is probably the most repairable/simple construction.

you have to start somewhere though.

Ryan,
I have some FAV GT40 drawings that John Horsman gave me. If you need something in particular, I can look through them.

 

[Ryan L]

If you need something in particular, I can look through them

I have replied to one of our old private messages
I am going ok for now. Life is busy, I just need more time.

 

[Tom Fuschetti]

Hi Tony , Tom here . Before you take on this project , when would you like to drive drive it ,and how old will you be when it is done .
The clutch in these cars is a workout ,will you have the strength to drive it an hour without getting a cramp ? It would be more cost
friendly to have skilled builder build it with you coaching them . They buy in bulk ,and pass that savings to you , and they guarantee
their workmanship . My number is 321-292-9005 I will help any way I can. From Monday - Saturday 9AM - 9
PM Merry Christmas.

 

[Ole Nylende]

Before you decide on the approach you should ask yourself where you want to end up.
Do you just want something that looks like a gt40, should it drive like the original ones did with original features or do you want it to be as true to the original ones as possible? I dont see the point of replicating the monocoque if you attach a mustang II suspension and ride torq thrust wheels on it.

Me and Ryan are working on a cad model each. It is alot of work I can tell you.
From time to other i feel that the morning motivation slogan at Slough had to be "Can we make this part more complex ? Yes we can!"
The prints available on grabcad, a few that you can harvest on this forum plus the book gt40 uncovered will get you a good distance but you will eventually be missing details. The missing details will either have to be reverse engineering from photos or you need to acquire information from those who have an actual monocoque car.

 

[Tony]

Hi All, thanks for the replies, thoughts and opinions,

Welcome to GT40S Tony. ....

Thanks Brian!

The exact mono is a...

Thanks for laying out all the different options for building a chassis, one can be sure that every different manufacturer of kits and each builders preference comes in to how they go about it. (more on this below). I doubt I would have the time or funds to do two builds.

Hi Tony , ...

Hi Tom, I hope to be in my 40's by the time this things is done. I cant say that I really want to go down the route of purchasing a vehicle or a mostly built outright. Most of the fun will be in the journey of building it. Thanks for the details nevertheless.

Before you ...

These are all excellent questions and ones I have been asking myself over the last week or so. I hear you on the Mustang suspension and choice of wheel. let me get in to where im at and feel free to shoot some holes in it if you all think things dont add up:

First off lets talk about requirements, what do I (at this point) want the car to do, and also what I want the build to look like, i.e., what do I want to learn and what "standard" is supposed to be kept. As said above, most of the fun will be in the build itself and its a multi year project.

So id like a Mk I. But I probably dont want all the 60's technology of a MK I.

In my opinion, building such a car comes down to each builder and they all lie on a spectrum, at one end is a pure ("the purists") as close to the genuine article as possible, nut and bolt etc. At the other end is "something" under the clam shells. That something can be any array of different chassis designs, suspension setups, power-plant etc. Where do I sit on this spectrum? Unsurprisingly I'm probably in the middle to be honest, and why I say that is: Building the mono from the plans in CAD and then doing all the sheet metal/welding work myself would not only be a learning experience but would be satisfying. Having the chassis build from the plan in my mind would be "as close to" the real thing (chassis wise), however this is where I deviate from a original.

Do you then go and cast your own uprights from whatever plans and design can be found to be in line with the original, or do you make some minor adjustments to the mono design at the suspension fix points to include something more similar to RCR's arms and uprights? At the end of the day I would still like to incorporate some modern aspects especially when it some to the suspension and engine department (below). So does one bastardise the mono in the eyes of the purists if I end up modifying the suspension attachment points to accept different wishbones and links? Or if you look under the hood(s) and see somehting that is CNC'd does one completely write off the car as something not pure or original?

Power train. If I wanted something original in terms of power and engine characteristics Id be putting in the 302 with the webbers. However, If you're going to incorporate some modern tech, you may aswell put the Coyote and Ricardo (at some cost!), At this point do you just throw any originality out the window or do you get a 95% original chassis design with modern suspension and engine tech? - thats probably where im leanring on the spectrum.

designing everything in CAD first is a must. As mentioned - getting information for all the parts will be challenging, time consuming and potentially costly. Being able to design the whole thing as an assembly would be wise and not break the bank to start off with.

thanks for the replies everyone, great to hear opinions and thoughts on the topic.

 

[Ole Nylende]

There are a set of drawings available on grabcad. It is the same set as have been sold on eBay from time to other.
The drawings alone wont tell you too much, it shows the finished part, not the flat patterns for cutting etc (well, they have one or so with flat pattern). It is not a complete set of drawings.
What you need to do then is to draw all the parts one by one and place them on the coordinates stated on the drawing. After some time you will see the structure coming to life. Then at a stage you will run out of drawings. That is when you need to fill in the holes, gather photos of cars that hopefully is correct and speak to others who might know stuff.
With regards to cad software if you dont have any preferences i would recomment solidworks, inventor or fusion. All have fully legal options for personal use.

When it comes to altering the mono suspensions pivots etc there is not too much you can do. There are room for some minor adjustments if you'd like but we are talking a few mm before you have to start remodelling alot of parts.

It is your project and personal preferences, if you feel like dumping a powerstroke in it please do so...

 

[Ole Nylende]

Just for information when considering different transmissions etc.
When i started out i bought a Graziano box. At that time the plan was to build a spaceframe car, so should have worked back then.
Now in the monocoque things are a bit different.
The engine is supposed to be sloping backwards by 50' or so.
To be able to fit this in any way, it needs to be tilted forward by 2-3 degrees.
You can also see the transmission poking out of the rear bodywork and clash with subframe.

So, true to original cars need components suitable for it and not big bulky monsterparts.

 

[Tony]

Just for information when considering different transmissions etc.
When i started out i bought a Graziano box. At that time the plan was to build a spaceframe car, so should have worked back then.
Now in the monocoque things are a bit different.
The engine is supposed to be sloping backwards by 50' or so.
To be able to fit this in any way, it needs to be tilted forward by 2-3 degrees.
You can also see the transmission poking out of the rear bodywork and clash with subframe.

So, true to original cars need components suitable for it and not big bulky monsterparts.

Thanks Ole,

It would be great to have the dimensions from bellhousing to back for all the common gearboxes:
ZF (ZF 5DS-25/2) or QBE62G or RBT or any version OE or remake of the ZF
Quaife
01E
G50
Ricardo
Graziano

and others?
maybe ill try collate a list of specs and/or the 3D models if they aren't already posted around.

 

[Ryan L]

drawing for the Quaife and RBT are available online.

Bremar has 3d scans of some of them.

Purchase Scan Files — Bremar Automotion 3D Scan Store

www.bremar3dscanstore.com

 

[Ole Nylende]

There is a model for a quaife qtek somethingsomething on grabcad i think. That is supposed to be a drop in upgrade on beetle 996/997.
Should be good enough as a base if you are going the g50/g96/g97 route.
If i get rid of my graziano box i am going for a porsche box.

 

[Tony]

Thanks Ryan & Ole,

link for the Graziano

Graziano Transaxle Transmission — Bremar Automotion 3D Scan Store

Graziano Transaxle Transmission

www.bremar3dscanstore.com

i cant seem to find the RBT

The windsor with Audi 01E (that ive seen in your CAD models Ryan)

Ford 302 Windsor With Audi Transaxle — Bremar Automotion 3D Scan Store

Ford 302 Windsor & Transaxle. Engine: Ford 302 Windsor from Ford Motorsport, Part No: M6007X302 Transaxle: Audi 01E Due to unfavourable conditions and limited time available to capture this model, the scan file is of low quality but is still dimensionally correct and provides an accurate

www.bremar3dscanstore.com

links for the Quaife QTEK5 52G 79G 61G transaxle

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Free CAD Designs, Files & 3D Models | The GrabCAD Community Library

The GrabCAD Library offers millions of free CAD designs, CAD files, and 3D models. Join the GrabCAD Community today to gain access and download!

grabcad.com

thanks guys!