Ring and pinion

Hi Jim,

For what it is worth, If GTA won't sell you a 3.22 R&P, why not go through Mick at 40 inches.(www.40inches.com)

Don't flame me, I have read the arguments previously raised about the development and rights of ownership, but if you can't get it from one source, there is no harm in getting it from another if it is freely available.
 
Don't forget from Mick it's approx $2800 AUD (approx $2100 USD) and 16 weeks delivery not including shipping. Then machine your own case and find and buy the appropriate bearings.

Not much "savings" over buying the completely rebuilt Audi 016 w/R&P from GTA for $2695 (USD of course).

Mitch D
 
Andy,
Thanks for the link to the thread on this topic. I believe the reason why the Porsche R&P was dropped was due to the fact that it isn’t just a drop in. The case has to be bored out to accept a larger pinion bearing cup or race. Once this is done the pinion depth has to be re-calculated which isn’t a quick job on this setup. Once this is done the preload needs to be re-established. Then the backlash has to be reset, then the differential bearing preload. It’s not a small task. This is what probably got the ball rolling on GTA having a new R&P built. I’m sure they figured if they were going to go to this much work, might as well have the exact ratio that you want.

Mitch,
I understand your point completely, but as I’ve said before, I don’t have a trans shop, nor do I want to have a trans shop, I’m just trying to use my skills and resources to save some money. Besides I really enjoy doing this type of figuring/engineering and fabrication. In analyzing this trans, and talking with forum members, I’ve come up with a good way to run pressurized lube to all the bearings and to fifth gear, which looks like it gets starved.
This is why I like to do my own work.
I think this is what build kits are all about. Innovative ideas being formed, tried, tested, and shared with others. I am in no way a threat to GTA. I think it’s silly for them not to sell me a 3.22 R&P. Hopefully I can talk to John again and convince him of that. If not I’ll being using the 3.375 ratio I guess!
Most people will look at the amount of work and resources needed and will just have GTA do the work and that’s good too. Do what you can with what you’ve got.

Sorry if I was rambling on.

I’ll keep you posted.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Don't forget from Mick it's approx $2800 AUD (approx $2100 USD) and 16 weeks delivery not including shipping. Then machine your own case and find and buy the appropriate bearings.

Not much "savings" over buying the completely rebuilt Audi 016 w/R&P from GTA for $2695 (USD of course).


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I just don't understand why anyone would want to spend all this money when you could buy a real nice 01E for that amount and have enough left over to buy new half shafts. You'd end up with better gear ratios (OK, 1st gear still woudn't be great), an extra gear, and a much stronger design.

Jim, nice tech you're bringing on the 016. Sounds like you're having fun!
 
Jim S - I understand your point of view and have nothing against it. However, think about it from GTA's point of view. Suppose they sell one of the parts to John Doe. Then supposed John Doe either attempts self install or pays someone else to do it. Now imagine things don't go well - perhaps a trans is ruined due to incorrect machining, perhaps the backlash is not properly setup, perhaps who knows how many other things go wrong. Now, after time and money spent, John Doe has nothing good to say about the whole thing and he posts his frustration on the forum. How many R&P's do you think would be sold after that?

Mark - if the 01E is the superior option, why don't we see/hear much about it? Is it readily available in the US? What is the price of a typical rebuild, etc? Is it known to be "stronger" or is this just conjecture? I honestly don't know much about it. I was going down the 016 path simply because it would have been a very easy drop in to my future RF and it works with CAV too. Unless you're living under a rock, we all see that RF is apparently down the crapper, so I really don't have a veiwpoint one way or the other as to which trans.

Mitch D
 
I'd lobby that the GTA option is quite a viable one for those that choose that route. Though it still harbors suspected limitations with regard to HP/TQ, it does address the need for vastly improved ratio's at a reasonable price. It very nicely shifts the entire speed range of all 5 gears to the prefered side of the chart; a good thing.

Jim, I wish you luck in your eneavor and do share your experiences with us. I think I posted the net ratio's for an 016 5N with the 3.375:1 Porsche R&P on the link to the previous posts that I provided above.

Although I have an 01E, I will admit to the jury still being out with regard to its' strength and durability. Thus far, I believe it to be hearsay that they can take an additional 100HP over the 016 until someone that has one can give us their feedback (outside of the outfit that sells them).On the bright side, many seem enthusiastic about the expectations. The Quattro racers have some data, but don't forget that torque is split between two differentials through the Torsen in those applications. The Quattro version has a hollow counter shaft (which the pinion shaft passes through), but it apparently is quite robust.

Andys
 
Mitch, I think the 016 is a great budget transaxle for a mid-engine car. They can be had for a few hundred bucks and they'll live happily behind a most V8s as long as you don't sidestep the clutch a lot or have fat, sticky rear tires. And there are some very interesting and encouraging trends as people continue to develop and improve the 016. But they have their limitations. They require the engine be higher than other transaxle options. The gearing isn't very good.

Think about it - figure you want a real nice 016 setup, so you find a useable core for, let's say $300. You fork over $1,500 for a Quaife LSD. Then you send it off to GTA for a $2,800 R&P and rebuild. At this point you have close to $5,000 into your "budget" transaxle. That puts you firmly into Porsche G50 territory and you are getting close to ZF money. Both alternatives give you a stronger box, better gearing, and the ability to lower your engine relative to Audi boxes.

The 2WD 01E is not available in the US, but they can be easily purchased and imported from Germany. Rebuild should be similar to an 016 and any shop that works on Audi S4s should be able to do the job. As for the strength comparison, I think it goes beyond conjecture - the 01E is definitely stronger than the 016. Heinz Kluge, one of Europe's most respected Audi transaxle gurus, told me it was good for 100 hp more than the 016 in stock form. Looking at mine, this makes sense. All sorts of subtle improvements, like larger radiusing on parts, larger gears, provision for clutch cooling, etc.

All that said, I own both and am installing the 016 in my GT40, at least initially. I will need a new adapter plate, clutch, flywheel, half shafts and shifter mechanism to fit my 01E. I'll do it eventually, but I have all the stuff I need right now to get the car on the road with the 016. I'll report what happens when I sidestep the clutch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Minor correction on pricing: If you want your 016 rebuilt with the new R&P including the Quaif LSD, they'll do it for $3995 (2005 pricing - you'll have to check with GTA to see if it still holds in 2006). So your in the low 4000's. That's much lower in price than anything else and any future rebuilds are cheaper than the Porsche or the ZF. I concede that it's the "budget" solution, but it's pretty damn good for the money. If your goal was a mostly street GT40 like my goal was, then it's completely capable for the job.

I suspect that "not available" in the US will lead to some issues when rebuilding or repairing depending on the parts required. Not to mention the guys working on it may not have touched many 01E's. Also, you noted that you need to source an adapter plate, clutch, flywheel, and halfshafts. This was all to be included with the RF so I wouldn't have required any of those items.

Sounds like both are completely suitable, but if cost is your primary consideration the 016 seems to win out.

MD
 
Mark!! Don't side step the clutch! I have a template for the reinforcing plate and a step-by-step install procedure in my Photo Gallery at www.kwikercars.com . You don't need anything fancy to make the plate, the purpose of it is to back up the area at the pinion bearing only. You need to machine off 1/4" from the rear housing, this should cost about $75.00 at a machine shop.
I agree with you that if you were going to spend $4000.00 plus on a transaxle why not go for a Porsche.
After driving the stock Audi gear ratio's I don't know what the big deal is. First is usable and fifth gear will run you up to 140 MPH without any trouble.

Cheers;
Jim
 
No worries, Jim. I've already downloaded your template and bookmarked your excellent installation instructions. I do plan to perform this mod on my 016. I assume mild steel plate is OK, and that I don't need to use 4130 or anything exotic, right?
 
Mitch,

I promise this is the last thing I'm going to say about this. I still here what your saying, but your example I could use for the kits we build. What if the kit companies said man I'm not sure if someone will assemble this kit properly then it won't perform right or be dangerous and there going to say we have a horrible kit and tell all their friends and post it on this furom so we won't get anymore business. You can use this example on and on and on. GTA has a good name and I don't think that's going to change no matter what could be said about them. I hope noone is so narrow minded that they wouldn't look at all the facts before judging someone. I wouldn't buy or not buy a kit off from one person's statement.

And this is the last I will talk about this part of the subject. I don't want us to waste anymore time on it. There's more fun technical things to talk about. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take care,
 
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No worries, Jim. I've already downloaded your template and bookmarked your excellent installation instructions. I do plan to perform this mod on my 016. I assume mild steel plate is OK, and that I don't need to use 4130 or anything exotic, right?

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Mild steel works great. I took apart a transmission after about 5000 miles with a plate installed and no sign of any cracking, it did however break 4 axles in that time frame.

Jim
 
Gents

As I recall from previous threads, the 01E is stronger,
but not readily available in the US...although I also recall
a few members were selling some they already imported.
Of course now that RF is no more...I don't know who will offer the adapter parts (they're different than the 016).
Kennedy doesn't.

If you are starting from scratch and want a stronger tranny than the 016, I just don't see how you can beat the G50. There are still plenty in the US with a bunch of aftermarket support. Of course the panache of owning a 6-speed may be worth the effort to some users.

Back to the original intent (I think) of this thread,
the upgraded 016 box by GTA was intended primarily
for those who ALREADY had 016 equipped cars... and didn't want to make a lot of changes.

If Jim can figure a way to fit the Porsche R&P to the 016,
I think we'd all like to know. If he can't... that's life ! Have fun Jim.

MikeD
 
Guy's , here's the deal. I was able to obtain a CD of the factory repair manual for a Porsche 944.

The porsche also uses the 016 trans designation. The difference in the pinion gear shaft is that 4th gear, which is the gear that holds the front tapered roller bearing up tight to the pinion gear itself or the closest gear to the actual pinion gear. This gear on the Audi is pressed and splined to the pinion shaft. On the Porsche it is just pressed, no splines. Also the 4th gear is a different ratio from the audi to the porsche. So to use the Porsche pinion, you would have to get both gears that mess together to make 4th gear; out of the Porsche along with the R&P and put them in the Audi. Also because the pinion gear itself is bigger due to the ratio, you will most likely have to change the front pinion bearing out for the porsche. This means you would have to machine the case to accept this.

For right now I'm going to work on the pressure lube system and get all of the ports or oil galleries drill and fitted with lines and source a nice 12 Volt oil pump for use in this system. This pump will also force oil through a filter and through a oil cooler.

After I looked over this trans what surprises me most is the gears and syncros look good but all of the bearings don't look to good for a fairly low mileage trans. Also 5th gear all the way in the back looks like it could use a better oil supply. You could see and smell that the oil was getting burnt slightly. I think better lube is a good thing to do for this trans.

In the mean time I'll keep my eyes open for a porsche 944 trans and maybe, "maybe" put this together.
If not I'll deal with the original gear set. I'm just happy that I found out what is difference and what needs to be done.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Nice post, Jim!

As a point of reference, I was told by Bob Lawrence, the guy who sold me my RF kit with engine and transaxle, that my 016 was modified with a 3.89 R&P from a Porsche 924.

Did the 944, or the 944 Turbo, have a numerically lower final drive? I have the Audi/VW Ekta software but nothing for Porsche.
 
Mark,

I never found out absolutely for sure, but the turbo I've heard had a 3.375 and this I haven't confirmed yet! When and if I find out I will post this info.
 
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Mark,

I never found out absolutely for sure, but the turbo I've heard had a 3.375 and this I haven't confirmed yet! When and if I find out I will post this info.

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Jim,

Maybe this site will help http://www.924.org/techsection/PorscheTrans1.PDF

I've got the Excel version of this somewhere, but can't locate it for the moment.

Andys
 
Thanks Andy,

I guess I was right 944T has a 3.375 R&P. I think your the one that told me this.
Mark, if you click on Andy's link, you'll see them.

Take care,
 
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