Superlite GTA
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
Fran,
I see tweaks everywhere with the Apex and I love all of them!! It is definitely looking more "finished". This car will be wild.
Mr. Wolfe
Anyone have this book? I just ordered it.
Mr. Wolfe
Mr. Wolfe
Gotcha. Well, I am sure I will learn some reading it. I hear what you are saying though. I want to build a top-notch engine using the best block, parts, etc.
Mr. Wolfe
Anyone have this book? I just ordered it.
Mr. Wolfe
Hahaha, I can't imagine how out of date with the current 4g63 technology that book is
. I guess it would be a good starter for someone who hasn't worked with them before, but ultimately it's a fairly standard engine and therefore most standard engine theory works with them. Just to give some food for thought and vendors where you can find components for these cars:
ECMTuning, Inc., plug n play ecu conversion to allow for datalogging/tuning with great customer service from Dave/Tom. Owning the system also gets you access to their forums which is the best forum for the DSM community IMO hands down.
Kiggly Racing - kigglyracing.com, amazing guy who currently has the fastest fwd car in the world. Has a lot of useful parts
Welcome To Extreme PSI, cheap aftermarket components
JM Fabrications, cheap fabricated components
JNZ Tuning, for OEM mitsu parts and
www.magnusmotorsports.com, more pricey but Marcus has some pretty off the wall stuff to offer
Forced Performance Turbochargers, Parts, Kits | Ball-Bearing Turbo Chargers For Sale Online - FP Red, Black, Green, great turbos, the HTA 68 would be a torque monster in this car, and the HTA 82-86 variants would put the car in the low 9's while still spooling fully in the low 4's
www.sheptrans.com, builder of the most stout DSM transmissions available.
Personally I feel a 30R variant would be all that anyone would need in a car like this, probably placing you in the low 10's, possibly high 9's depending on how the car is setup, and still spooling at least 20psi by 3500ish. The head should be a 2g head, the block can be a simple 6bolt setup. For cams, FP makes some of the best and I would highly recommend the FP4R's, or possibly a FP4R/5R combo depending on how high you rev it (9-10k isn't uncommon for folks with kiggly's valvesprings). The intake manifold should be changed to a sheetmetal or magnus' cast version. If budget is tight a stock Evo 3 manifold works in a pinch for a slight upgrade. DSMlink allows for speed density, which will make designing intakes a breeze, and give your turbo the unrestricted flow it needs to be efficient.
Some other food for thought. Depending on how well this car pulls G's, there can be starvation issues in these engines at high sustained G's. Kiggly's oil restrictor plate restricts the amount of oil feeding the lifters and returns the unused oil back to the pan. During high G track events this helps keep oil in the pan where it is needed most, and might be of particular interest to folks here.
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For budget folks, stick with an 1g intake manifold, MHI Evo 3 16g turbo, 6bolt longblock, and FP race exhaust manifold, and you have a combo that has the potential for 400whp with the right setup such as this and be about as dirt cheap as they come.
Hahaha, I can't imagine how out of date with the current 4g63 technology that book is
Just to give some food for thought and vendors where you can find components for these cars:
ECMTuning, Inc., plug n play ecu conversion to allow for datalogging/tuning with great customer service from Dave/Tom. Owning the system also gets you access to their forums which is the best forum for the DSM community IMO hands down.
Kiggly Racing - kigglyracing.com, amazing guy who currently has the fastest fwd car in the world. Has a lot of useful parts
Welcome To Extreme PSI, cheap aftermarket components
JM Fabrications, cheap fabricated components
JNZ Tuning, for OEM mitsu parts and
www.magnusmotorsports.com, more pricey but Marcus has some pretty off the wall stuff to offer
Forced Performance Turbochargers, Parts, Kits | Ball-Bearing Turbo Chargers For Sale Online - FP Red, Black, Green, great turbos, the HTA 68 would be a torque monster in this car, and the HTA 82-86 variants would put the car in the low 9's while still spooling fully in the low 4's
www.sheptrans.com, builder of the most stout DSM transmissions available.
Personally I feel a 30R variant would be all that anyone would need in a car like this, probably placing you in the low 10's, possibly high 9's depending on how the car is setup, and still spooling at least 20psi by 3500ish. The head should be a 2g head, the block can be a simple 6bolt setup. For cams, FP makes some of the best and I would highly recommend the FP4R's, or possibly a FP4R/5R combo depending on how high you rev it (9-10k isn't uncommon for folks with kiggly's valvesprings). The intake manifold should be changed to a sheetmetal or magnus' cast version. If budget is tight a stock Evo 3 manifold works in a pinch for a slight upgrade. DSMlink allows for speed density, which will make designing intakes a breeze, and give your turbo the unrestricted flow it needs to be efficient.
Some other food for thought. Depending on how well this car pulls G's, there can be starvation issues in these engines at high sustained G's. Kiggly's oil restrictor plate restricts the amount of oil feeding the lifters and returns the unused oil back to the pan. During high G track events this helps keep oil in the pan where it is needed most, and might be of particular interest to folks here.
Hey man, I have to start somewhere. :worried:
I am BRAND NEW to the DSM world and have been doing as much research as possible. I guess the book can't hurt.
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the 4g63, would you mind sharing some insight with me?
Let's say you have a $5k-$8k engine budget for this car. You want 400-450rwhp and as reliable as possible. You will be doing all engine work (minus the machining), what parts are you buying? I am not looking for a budget build, but from my researching, this amount of money is more than enough to build a solid 4g63. I would just love to hear a break down of what pistons (wiseco, etc.), heads, rods, etc. YOU would use.
While we're at it, do you prefer the 6 or 7 bolt?
Thanks man. :thumbsup:
Mr. Wolfe
I personally ran a 6bolt on my car, but the 7bolt is in many ways a better block it just is flawed by the possibility of crankwalk, and has a weaker OEM reciprocating assembly. To highlight some of the good points, the block itself already has a built in cast girdle, the crank is around 5lbs lighter, and the block has increased rigidity. Some other highlights are the fact that it has a dedicated crank sensor, which keeps electrical timing in-sync with the longblock in the event that the timing belt stretches. Kiggly makes a girdle for the 6bolt as well as a crank trigger, and you don't have the concern of crankwalk. It's your call which one you choose.
400-450whp is virtually nothing on this setup, especially considering it is 2wd so the losses are significantly reduced.
Exhaust:
An evo 3 16g with the right setup costs 500 bucks (possibly more new since they are harder to find nowadays), and would put you at that level. FP sells an HTA 68 and has had them on sale for as little as 799 bucks new, and it should spool very similar to the 16g, but push you easily over the 500whp mark. I would defiinitely ditch the factory exhaust manifolds (1g's are known to crack, and 2g's still have a lot left on the table) in favor of an FP cast exhaust manifold.
Intake:
Ditch the factory MAS and run speed density using DSMlink or another standalone of your choice. The intake pipe will be custom on this car ideally, but a 3" pipe should be all that's needed for this kind of flow. I'm not sure how this car allows for an intercooler so I'm going to skip over this part in particular. I would run a solid aftermarket BOV, I always prefer Tial products as they are as bulletproof as they come. I would pick up a JMfabrications or Magnus sheetmetal intake manifold and ditch the stocker.
Head:
For a cylinder head I would run a 2g stock OEM head with a nice set of cams. There are a ton of cams out there, I found the FP4R's to be a great set that seemed to work all over the power range. The HTA 68/Evo 3 won't be high revving turbos, the E16g losing steam around 6-7, and the HTA probably going a fair bit further. I would say just about any springs would work here, but if it were me I would stick with Kiggly's behives as while they are very pricey they are the best you can possibly get and Kiggly is an amazing guy to deal with and I whole heartedly support him. I would pick up a kiggly oil restrictor while I was at it to help keep oil starvation to a minimum. Many folks run 3g lifters for lower revving cars, and 1g lifters for higher revving engines. Your call there, both can be had for about the same price. OEM rockers work just fine. For head studs OEM work plenty fine at that level, and 2g engines use torque to yield bolts if I remember correctly so you'd need to replace them if you pull the head from a 7bolt. I personally would go with ARP L19's combined with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket and be done with it. That combo has proven to hold the head down under extreme pressures (43psi on my setup). Stay away from solid lifters, the only time they should ever be used are when you are on the bench and dialing in cam timing.
Block:
In all honesty the factory block will handle these numbers just fine as long as you tune the engine properly. If you truly must pull it apart the Eagle rod/wiseco piston combo is as cheap as it gets and would be bulletproof. For even more protection for future mods Wiseco HD's are about the most stout piston I've seen in the common aftermarket capable of 400hp per piston. OEM crank is plenty strong enough. For bearings run ACL race bearings, 100 bucks a set and they are all you'd ever need for this kind of level. Be absolutely certain to use a OEM mitsu front cover, the frontline and aftermarket units are notorious for the oil pump eating itself up. A kevlar timing belt is a bonus if you want to have a little more security.
Fuel:
A walbro 255lph HP is all you need for these levels. A bosch 044 is louder and will flow more. Walbro also produces many other higher flowing in-tank designs now that I would tend to prefer over the walbro. If you need more flow down the road just add in a 255lph HP or bosch 044 in series and use the in-tank pump as a lifter pump. Ditch the OEM fuel filter, the banjo fitting causes too much pressure drop and it won't be a bolt-in affair on this car anyway. Convert to an aftermarket filter of your choice. Injectors are whatever you want, I would tend to stick with something like 1000-1200cc's, as they will idle just fine and only cost a tad more. While you don't need this flow, it certainly opens up future capability for someone not on an absolute budget. I picked up RC 1200's new from ebay for around 300 a set. One of the major downsides to the OEM system is the factory saddle tank, which is eliminated in this car, awesome. OEM pressure regulator will need to be swapped out as it will be overrun by the pump, swap to something of your choice such as an aeromotive unit.
I'm sure I missed a few smaller things, but all of that is SIGNIFICANTLY less than your budget. If you wanted to keep it dirt cheap stick with a 6bolt long block and replace the OEM studs with ARP's (although there is debate that the 1g studs were as strong as standard ARP's). No block resurfacing required as you could use a composite OEM gasket.
400-450whp is virtually nothing on this setup, especially considering it is 2wd so the losses are significantly reduced.
Exhaust:
An evo 3 16g with the right setup costs 500 bucks (possibly more new since they are harder to find nowadays), and would put you at that level. FP sells an HTA 68 and has had them on sale for as little as 799 bucks new, and it should spool very similar to the 16g, but push you easily over the 500whp mark. I would defiinitely ditch the factory exhaust manifolds (1g's are known to crack, and 2g's still have a lot left on the table) in favor of an FP cast exhaust manifold.
Intake:
Ditch the factory MAS and run speed density using DSMlink or another standalone of your choice. The intake pipe will be custom on this car ideally, but a 3" pipe should be all that's needed for this kind of flow. I'm not sure how this car allows for an intercooler so I'm going to skip over this part in particular. I would run a solid aftermarket BOV, I always prefer Tial products as they are as bulletproof as they come. I would pick up a JMfabrications or Magnus sheetmetal intake manifold and ditch the stocker.
Head:
For a cylinder head I would run a 2g stock OEM head with a nice set of cams. There are a ton of cams out there, I found the FP4R's to be a great set that seemed to work all over the power range. The HTA 68/Evo 3 won't be high revving turbos, the E16g losing steam around 6-7, and the HTA probably going a fair bit further. I would say just about any springs would work here, but if it were me I would stick with Kiggly's behives as while they are very pricey they are the best you can possibly get and Kiggly is an amazing guy to deal with and I whole heartedly support him. I would pick up a kiggly oil restrictor while I was at it to help keep oil starvation to a minimum. Many folks run 3g lifters for lower revving cars, and 1g lifters for higher revving engines. Your call there, both can be had for about the same price. OEM rockers work just fine. For head studs OEM work plenty fine at that level, and 2g engines use torque to yield bolts if I remember correctly so you'd need to replace them if you pull the head from a 7bolt. I personally would go with ARP L19's combined with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket and be done with it. That combo has proven to hold the head down under extreme pressures (43psi on my setup). Stay away from solid lifters, the only time they should ever be used are when you are on the bench and dialing in cam timing.
Block:
In all honesty the factory block will handle these numbers just fine as long as you tune the engine properly. If you truly must pull it apart the Eagle rod/wiseco piston combo is as cheap as it gets and would be bulletproof. For even more protection for future mods Wiseco HD's are about the most stout piston I've seen in the common aftermarket capable of 400hp per piston. OEM crank is plenty strong enough. For bearings run ACL race bearings, 100 bucks a set and they are all you'd ever need for this kind of level. Be absolutely certain to use a OEM mitsu front cover, the frontline and aftermarket units are notorious for the oil pump eating itself up. A kevlar timing belt is a bonus if you want to have a little more security.
Fuel:
A walbro 255lph HP is all you need for these levels. A bosch 044 is louder and will flow more. Walbro also produces many other higher flowing in-tank designs now that I would tend to prefer over the walbro. If you need more flow down the road just add in a 255lph HP or bosch 044 in series and use the in-tank pump as a lifter pump. Ditch the OEM fuel filter, the banjo fitting causes too much pressure drop and it won't be a bolt-in affair on this car anyway. Convert to an aftermarket filter of your choice. Injectors are whatever you want, I would tend to stick with something like 1000-1200cc's, as they will idle just fine and only cost a tad more. While you don't need this flow, it certainly opens up future capability for someone not on an absolute budget. I picked up RC 1200's new from ebay for around 300 a set. One of the major downsides to the OEM system is the factory saddle tank, which is eliminated in this car, awesome
. OEM pressure regulator will need to be swapped out as it will be overrun by the pump, swap to something of your choice such as an aeromotive unit. I'm sure I missed a few smaller things, but all of that is SIGNIFICANTLY less than your budget. If you wanted to keep it dirt cheap stick with a 6bolt long block and replace the OEM studs with ARP's (although there is debate that the 1g studs were as strong as standard ARP's). No block resurfacing required as you could use a composite OEM gasket.
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Just to add, both engines are fully capable of your goals in factory form. A friend of mine put down 610awhp on a stock 6bolt longblock with ARP studs and cams, which would be equivalent to 650+ on a 2wd setup. It is entirely up to your budget, but realize these are from the days where Iron blocks still existed and they came with 7.8 to 8.5:1 CR from the factory so they aren't as detonation happy as turbocharged NA engines.
As any good designer knows at elevated power levels the OEM components lose their factory of safety, and can become susceptible to failure over the long haul. That may be years, or that may be months as tuning is a tremendous factor. I've always come from the mantra of overbuild for a given setup and give yourself a bit of a FOS. That may not win on race day, but I always built the car to be a street car foremost and I never once had a catastrophic failure.
As any good designer knows at elevated power levels the OEM components lose their factory of safety, and can become susceptible to failure over the long haul. That may be years, or that may be months as tuning is a tremendous factor. I've always come from the mantra of overbuild for a given setup and give yourself a bit of a FOS. That may not win on race day, but I always built the car to be a street car foremost and I never once had a catastrophic failure.
Wow, Chris, thank you for the long, informative post. I appreciate it. :thumbsup: While I read this a few more times and try to absorb the information, would say you can make a reliable 500 hp out of this engine? I know what they are capable of and I know many people run much high hp levels, but I don't want to get into the game of fixing stuff every 5k miles. 450 hp seems to be a nice number, but who wouldn't want 500 hp if it's reliability is near the same?
If purchasing the girdle and crank trigger, would you say there is less that could go wrong comparing the 6 bolt to the 7?
Every engine has that hp number where the price per/hp goes WAY up. Where would you say that number is on the 4g63?
In all honesty, I want to build from the block up using the best of everything I can. Not to mention, I want all wear items to be new since this car will be considered a new build with zero miles on the odometer. Though I would probably keep the stock crank. I just wouldn't feel right buying an aftermarket gauge setup with zero miles while using used pistons, rods, etc. Not sure if I am being too anal here...
Appreciate all of the help here. I am coming from the M3 world so I love high revving engines. This is my first step into turbo'd engines and torque.
Mr. Wolfe
We think alike in that aspect. I would like to build an engine capable of holding 700-800 hp and running 400-500 hp.
Mr. Wolfe
Mr. Wolfe,
I'm doing a Razor with a 4G63, gen 1. My parts list so far is,
4G63 Engine Build
- CP Pistons with DLC Pins Upgrade
- Carillo Rods with WSC Bolts
- ACL Rod, Main Bearing, Thrust Bearing
- Cometic Head Gasket
- Valve Springs & Retainers/Valves
- Kelford Cams 264/268
- ARP Main Bolts
- ARP Head Bolts
- Morosso Oil Pan
- AEM Cam Gears
- OEM Oil Pump
- OEM Water Pump
- Timing Belt
- Gasket Set
- ATI Damper Pulley
- Machine Shop Head
- Machine Shop Engine Block
Engine Management
- AEM EM4 Computer
- AEM Cam Gear
- Alternator
- Coil On Plug Kit
- AEM Flying Lead Harness
- MAP Sensor
- Air Temp Sensor
- Water Temp Sensor
- Boost Control Solenoid
- UEGO Wideband Gauge
- Injector Clips
Turbo/Intercooler
- GT3076R Ball Bearing Turbo
- Full-Race Manifold ProStreet
- Tail Wastegate
- Custom Downpipe
- Intercooler & Piping
- Oil Cooler Kit
Should be able to get the car to and from without any issues. May make a few changes, but this is pretty much it so far.
Remember to post pictures, when you start your build. I haven't quite got it figured out yet. Happy building.
Ron
I'm doing a Razor with a 4G63, gen 1. My parts list so far is,
4G63 Engine Build
- CP Pistons with DLC Pins Upgrade
- Carillo Rods with WSC Bolts
- ACL Rod, Main Bearing, Thrust Bearing
- Cometic Head Gasket
- Valve Springs & Retainers/Valves
- Kelford Cams 264/268
- ARP Main Bolts
- ARP Head Bolts
- Morosso Oil Pan
- AEM Cam Gears
- OEM Oil Pump
- OEM Water Pump
- Timing Belt
- Gasket Set
- ATI Damper Pulley
- Machine Shop Head
- Machine Shop Engine Block
Engine Management
- AEM EM4 Computer
- AEM Cam Gear
- Alternator
- Coil On Plug Kit
- AEM Flying Lead Harness
- MAP Sensor
- Air Temp Sensor
- Water Temp Sensor
- Boost Control Solenoid
- UEGO Wideband Gauge
- Injector Clips
Turbo/Intercooler
- GT3076R Ball Bearing Turbo
- Full-Race Manifold ProStreet
- Tail Wastegate
- Custom Downpipe
- Intercooler & Piping
- Oil Cooler Kit
Should be able to get the car to and from without any issues. May make a few changes, but this is pretty much it so far.
Remember to post pictures, when you start your build. I haven't quite got it figured out yet. Happy building.
Ron
My current daily is a '04 6spd M3. Fantastic car, and I've had thoughts of doing my own turbo project on it, 3.2L iron block, dual variable cams, 8k redline, 11:1 CR, and a 6spd getrag makes for one hell of an understated setup.
These engines absolutely can be reliable. They get their bad name from people who don't know what they are doing trying to keep things to a strict budget. When cars reach the price that these have, you are absolutely bound to have morons pick them up and run them into the ground. It also doesn't help that they are getting to be 20 years old now so it's harder to find example that are in solid all around condition. I never ran a girdle on my car, and I never saw fretting, but that isn't to say that I wouldn't eventually. The issue with his girdle is that you need to line hone the mains afterwards as it requires ARP main studs for their length. ARP's have a higher compression and therefore you have the chance of ovalizing the mains slightly under torque. Some hone them, some don't. Again, it's all about the budget, but the proper way would be to hone them.
If you want absolutely the best pistons available for the 4g, Wiseco HD's are the way to go. The wrist pin is damn near a solid billet piece, the valve pockets are massively wide and significantly deep to allow for extreme lifts. Run OEM sized valves as you reduce your ability to run high overlap cams with high lifts otherwise due to valve to valve contact. Rods are your choice. I personally ran Crowers, which are much heavier, but much more stout than eagles. I've seen plenty of people running eagles to the 800awhp range and still holding up.
The difference between a 600awhp setup and a 1000awhp isn't really all that much. Both typically require a build, and most of the parts run the same amount. The differences usually pop up in the drivetrain costs, which aren't a factor in a car like this.
These engines absolutely can be reliable. They get their bad name from people who don't know what they are doing trying to keep things to a strict budget. When cars reach the price that these have, you are absolutely bound to have morons pick them up and run them into the ground. It also doesn't help that they are getting to be 20 years old now so it's harder to find example that are in solid all around condition. I never ran a girdle on my car, and I never saw fretting, but that isn't to say that I wouldn't eventually. The issue with his girdle is that you need to line hone the mains afterwards as it requires ARP main studs for their length. ARP's have a higher compression and therefore you have the chance of ovalizing the mains slightly under torque. Some hone them, some don't. Again, it's all about the budget, but the proper way would be to hone them.
If you want absolutely the best pistons available for the 4g, Wiseco HD's are the way to go. The wrist pin is damn near a solid billet piece, the valve pockets are massively wide and significantly deep to allow for extreme lifts. Run OEM sized valves as you reduce your ability to run high overlap cams with high lifts otherwise due to valve to valve contact. Rods are your choice. I personally ran Crowers, which are much heavier, but much more stout than eagles. I've seen plenty of people running eagles to the 800awhp range and still holding up.
The difference between a 600awhp setup and a 1000awhp isn't really all that much. Both typically require a build, and most of the parts run the same amount. The differences usually pop up in the drivetrain costs, which aren't a factor in a car like this.
Ron, thank you for the list. I will check it out in further detail. Do you have a build thread?
Mr. Wolfe
Wow, small world. Are you member on m3forum.net? I have an 03 6MT. Actually, it's my second one in the past 6 years... love those cars. Not my daily driver, but in the summer time, it gets 90% of the driving.
Thanks for the info so far. Wow, those Wiseco HD's are $900! Everything you listed so far comes out to about $4500. That's minus the used engine, machine work, and misc. (intercooler, etc.) I am guessing better prices are to be had if I keep my eyes open.
Mr. Wolfe
Wiseco 1400HD Pistons (DSM / Evo / 4g63) - Modern Automotive Performance
Standard wiseco's and eagles:
WISECO PISTONS EAGLE RODS MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE 1G 2G DSM | eBay
Not even close to 900 bucks. Shop around, you'll bring your numbers down significantly. Many vendors price match as well, so Extreme/Map/JNZ will all work with you. I don't really see a reason to run a girdled 6bolt if you're aiming for the power levels that you say. A dampened pulley is great, don't run a solid billet unit. The OEM one works, but the rubber harmonic ring fails over time. You can get a new OEM unit and be just fine. The ultra high powered guys, especially the stroker guys, experience heavy harmonics that snap the crank at the #4 journal (if I remember right it's been a few years). Not really a concern for 99.99% of the guys out there, especially the 2.0 guys. Ditch the balance shafts, no need for them and simple 30 dollars worth in OEM components will allow you to do it.
Standard wiseco's and eagles:
WISECO PISTONS EAGLE RODS MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE 1G 2G DSM | eBay
Not even close to 900 bucks. Shop around, you'll bring your numbers down significantly. Many vendors price match as well, so Extreme/Map/JNZ will all work with you. I don't really see a reason to run a girdled 6bolt if you're aiming for the power levels that you say. A dampened pulley is great, don't run a solid billet unit. The OEM one works, but the rubber harmonic ring fails over time. You can get a new OEM unit and be just fine. The ultra high powered guys, especially the stroker guys, experience heavy harmonics that snap the crank at the #4 journal (if I remember right it's been a few years). Not really a concern for 99.99% of the guys out there, especially the 2.0 guys. Ditch the balance shafts, no need for them and simple 30 dollars worth in OEM components will allow you to do it.
