New ideas, new problems 2008

[Bill Musarra]

In January, we will have a new government in place here in the U S. With that, will come some new ideas and some new problems.
One of the good things is the eleection of an African American as president. Agree with him or not, it shows that this country is not afraid of this idea(bigotry) and that this coutry is one that shows you can succede if you try. His election will be studied for years in how he accomplished this feat.
One of the first problems I see will be an assault on the 2nd Ammendent.

A <!-- topicid183 -->well regulated Militia<!-- /topicid183 -->, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to <!-- topicid184 -->keep and bear Arms<!-- /topicid184 -->, shall not be infringed.

There is a lot of debate about this ammendment and a persons right to defend themselves, and guns don't kill people, people kill people, etc. etc.
Well here is a statement given to the committee that is considering these issues. It is Susan Gratia's testimony before the committee.

Suzanna Gratia-Hupp: What the Second Amendment is REALLY For

If you want to vent some ideas, here is the place. Might even show some ideas that people haven't thought of or considered(for good or for bad).
Then again, if this is something noone wants to talk about, then let it die.

Bill

 

[Jim Nielsen]

Bill,
Personally I don't own a gun. I do support peoples right to bear arms. I grew up on a farm and hunted most of my life. I support it because making a law that says you cannot have them only empowers the criminals. They aren't suddenly going to obey the law and give up their guns. Knowing that citizens cannot arm them selves makes it easier for them to kick in the door and rob you. Older people especially are targetted. They have no chance against 1 or 2 young men breaking in to the house.
Just like the election you can see the bais against guns. They don't report the incidents where an honest citizen stops a criminal invading their home or someone with a gun on the rampage.
I think it is funny how these senators and celebrities that want guns banned think it is ok for their security to have guns to protect them. I think when Obama and all the government people have their security disarm I will think it is right then. However, as long as they feel they are good enough to protect themselves then I should be to.

.02
Jim

 

[Ron Earp]

As many of you probably know from my posts I'm a strong supporter of the right to own a firearm. For many gun enthusiasts the recent Supreme Court Second Amendment ruling by Scalia gives them some assurance that their right will not be infringed. I'm not that confident, but I'm not personally interested in debating it.

I just wanted to say that I'll be extremely disappointed with the incoming Presidential administration and lawmakers if new gun laws are high on their list of priorities. The country has been in a recession for quite awhile, we're involved in difficult wars overseas, spending is out of control and so on. I should think they have more important things to attend to than new firearms laws. That ought to be waaaaaaaaaaay down on the list.

Ron

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Prior to the election there was a mentality the the world would come to an end when it appeared to be a very real possibility that Obama would be elected. Many blogs prior to the election could be characterized by the quote "buy 'em while you can", and other much less tactful or dignified remarks. It appeared that the last 8 years worth of critical thinking went right out the door (amazing what one doesn't see when one doesn't want to see it), and that the party in question overroad the person in question. Anyway, I thought I throw this out to all of those still fearing the Left's ban on guns politics. Pay particular attention to the sponsor of the bill.


[URL]http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-6257[/URL]

 

[Dimi Terleckyj]

Hi All
Here in Australia we have had all guns banned other than a few exceptions.

But we still get daily news reports of someone being shot.

As Ron stated the criminals dont care or respect any gun laws and are not bound or restricted by them so now while all the rest of us law abiding citizens are not allowed to own any guns the criminals are having a field day doing as they want.

So much for the effectiveness of gun control.

Dimi

 

[Ron Earp]

Anyway, I thought I throw this out to all of those still fearing the Left's ban on guns politics. Pay particular attention to the sponsor of the bill.
H.R. 6257: Assault Weapons Ban Reauthorization Act of 2008 (GovTrack.us)

Gun legislation comes from both sides of the isle. One can't simply look at a legislator's party affiliation and determine which side of the fence they'll come down on.

However, more often than not a democrat is for more gun control, a republican less. This makes it real hard for those of us that are pro-firearm but don't go along with a lot of the other conservative values, particularly when the republican party became quite enthralled with the ultra-Christian right.

That said, Mr. Bush, cited by most as a fairly conservative fellow, said he would sign a new/reauthorized AWB bill if it came across his desk.

Anyhow, this place here in NC

Del-Ton, Inc. A complete line of AR-15 Rifles, AR 15 Parts and AR15 Accessories.

is getting in 1500 AR15 lower receivers later this month. Most are spoken for but not all of them are. Just passing info along.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I agree totally with Dimi,we banned guns in Australia some time ago and now by definition the only people who have guns are the criminals. Guns are still being used for criminal activity and people are still being shot.
Banning guns has not been effective at all.

 

[David Sturch]

Pete,
It's the same here. You are still allowed to own guns. You have to have a background check, take courses and you have to store them in a specific manner and transport them as such. A permit to carry is only allowed if you work in a related field and you need further testing. I find that it's not responsible gun owners that are the problem. It's those dealers that sell them iresponibly. Most of the crime here is done either by guns from breakins or smuggled across the border. I feel for Law Inforcement on both side of the border, some of these idiots are better armed than they are. I don't like assault rifles and machine pistols in the hands of the average Joe.
Ron,
The Armalite BMC AR-50 what a nice target rifle, great for splunking in the hills of Afganistan with your spotter. I think something in 338 Lapua would cause a little less brain damage.
Just my thoughts.
Dave

 

[Cliff Beer]

Perhaps the issue isn't so black or white - perhaps some limits upon gun ownership are good for both proponents of gun possession and gun bans? In other words, perhaps both camps benefit from a) requiring registration of gun ownership, b) not selling guns to violent criminals, and c) requiring gun safety courses? These seem like reasonable regulations consistent with a civilized society, don't they?

It seems like it's not a question of do you let private citizens possess guns or not, rather, to what degree do you require disclosure and education of the gun possessing citizenry in order to achieve a reasonable balance between competing piorities and groups? Just my $.02.

 

[Scott Calabro]

I prefer this for my sniping duties :thumbsup:

20MM Take-Down Rifle - Anzio Ironworks

 

[David Sturch]

Scott,
Regular or depleated uranium round.
Dave

 

[Terry Oxandale]

I can't event imagine what the kick would be on that. 1500 grain at 3300 fps? Jeez.

 

[David Sturch]

Terry,
Try a gogle search on the Denel NTW-20. You will find a rifle that does a bit more than the Anzio Ironworks Takedown Rifle.

 

[Price Walton]

While I don't have a dog in this race - directly - I've seen threads on this topic on other fora degenerate into childishness.

All that is really learned is that people hold their views strongly on emotive topics and the less reasonable they become, the less reasoned the debate is.


Mind you, the most mature discussions on highly controversial issues I've ever seen have been on this site, so I'll remain optimistic.


I'm with Ron on this one, there are greater priorities for governments all around the world right now.


BTW - Scott - I'll have to learn to roll my own if I'm going to feed one of them in this current climate....

 

[Dave P]

I think they may go after ammunition. Probably a tax increase a the very minimum.

 

[Al Jones]

All states have gun laws but nothing seems to be standardized.Different cultural backgrounds > different laws.If the laws were really enforceable and everyone was law abiding,we wouldn't have a single problem.But here we are.I doubt if many of the members of this forum have spent a great deal of time in 'densely populated districts' of the inner cities.I have,legitimately,and if you want to pm me I'll tell you why.Truly,the quantity of illegally owned guns in these areas,from .22 pistols up to AK47's, is astounding. These people have NO regard for gun laws and consider guns necessary for their 'occupations',status or even survival.Most are stolen,some illegally purchased or smuggled but they are everywhere and these folks are not about to give them up.Police efforts like buy-back only stimulate additional thefts. I even personally witnessed a 13 yr old black male shoot an older white male point blank for being in a 'project' area.Gun battles on foot and car to car are common.Most of it is drug driven,money or territory,but this spills into the suburbs as well.Last month,walking my dogs,I ran into a group of normal looking kids in a park who, upon investigation with a park ranger I had asked to check their suspicious behavior,turned out to have a gun they were going to use on another group that they had words with but hadn't shown up yet.Some of these kids are barely old enough to understand cause and effect.You can't defend yourself with laws from this.A quote from this forum goes "when seconds count,the police are only minutes away". Best home defense is a 12 gauge.Most states don't restrict ownership except for felonies or mental illness and every thief knows the sound of a round going into a Winchester pump chamber.I personally keep a pickaxe handle handy but it's no match for a Glock 9mm. But that's home defense.Concealed carry is a big responsibilty - it has to be for last ditch/no other way/you're going to be killed situations and the discipline to use it only in that manner.I don't see our right to bear arms threatened by Obama's election,as he has already stated that;possibly a concerted effort to make the laws we have now actually work. But with the wide variance from state to state,some people are going to see that or any attempt at standardization as a threat to their 2nd Amendment rights.The best policy to protecting them is to stay informed and contact your Congressman/woman soon and often,maybe by group representation if possible. A.J.

 

[keohep]

Im glad im in Aus we do have gun controls,yes the real crims do have guns but could you imagine if some of our natives had the right to bare arms.did you know theres only just over 200,000 of them and nearly all adult males has done time one way or another.Im gland its fairly restrictive to get a gun and even better we dont have the assortment that you guys in the US have.

On the other hand our laws here dont really protect the inocent ,some would say the law gives more rights the to crooks esp with sentancing and with the final rights to appeal .The crooks are lucky here they only get three years for killing someone.The best thing for them is if you pleed guilty you get a third off yer sentance then another third after you appeal.

And the goals are like a five star hotels,three meals a day free health, mobil telephones, internet and dental.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Flippin heck!! - 20mm rifles.... I thought the Barrett .50 was a beast of a rifle but 20mm, where does it stop?

I assume there is nothing bigger than 20mm...?

ALso - gun (non shotgun) ownership over here is the UK has been pretty much eliminated from law abiding people since the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres - (google them if interested).

Now it's only the criminals that have them and they are not even that difficult to obtain....:embarassed:

 

[Mick]

I hear everbody complaining about the right to carry a gun but how do we stop our kids being killed at college or school any ideas? when someone feels pissed off and is mad enough to take the easy option an shoot because they own a gun and your kids are the ones in the firing line I wonder how you would feel about the right to carry a gunthen. Having a gun yourself wont stop this problem. Instead of worrying about our rights to own a gun we need to worry about the kids. I think it should be much harder to own a gun. You will never stop criminals getting guns so banning them wont stop them but we have have to stop kids being massacered by lunatics. I off my soap box now.

 

[Al Jones]

Mick - It's not that easy for just anyone to get a gun permit in most states.The laws are designed to screen out criminals,underage kids and those not responsible enough to have a deadly weapon.The problem is that somebody who really wants a gun doesn't have to deal with any of that.In most large cities,illegal guns are cheap,plentiful and easy to obtain.The people who have them don't give a shit about laws,aren't afraid and if they lose or get rid of a gun,they'll have another in a matter of hours.In the case of the college atrocities,you can't fix this by legislating more on law abiding gun owners.By watching to see the gun is sold properly, eliminating the illicit 'legal' dealers,and insuring proper safeguards are taken by the gun owner by enforcing laws already on the books we can almost stop the flow of new guns to unwanted destinations.But the major problem is the incredibly large number of illegally owned guns already out there,in epidemic quantity. Remember,you can never totally thwart a fanatic.you cannot reason with someone who is not afraid to die for his 'cause'.We can better the odds at schools and colleges with better security/warnings and by educating people to recognize and identify to authorities those who are on the edge and need help.There were warning signs associated with all of these mass attacks but they went unheeded and unreported.Lastly,the first step to a dictatorship is removing all firearms from the populace.Then,elimination of 'small' freedoms;occasional wiretaps;moving demonstrators,even when peaceful,from the public field of view to an inconsequential location;censoring speeches or reporters;actions by a government official without legal basis - are just the start.By the way,if you think all these things were done lately by a Democrat,you're wrong(No,I'm not a registered Democrat).The choice is mine not to have a handgun(have not used a gun since Viet Nam) but I support the rights of those that feel they should be able to protect themselves and loved ones by that method.The best way I can explain that is :I live in Cheshire,Conn., described as a quiet,affluent,little town.If you didn't see the national news piece on the home invasion here,go look it up in any news archives.That was just up the road from me.The news services even covered the first and second year 'anniversary' of the crime.A mother and two school age daughters were raped,the father beaten senseless,the mother strangled and the girls tied to beds,soaked with gas and burned.One big ass Smith & Wesson would have changed everything. Still,the best way to keep guns from our kids is good responsible parenting,showing love and teaching respect but it doesn't always happen and here we are. Time for me to get off MY soapbox and see if someone a lot smarter than I am (that's you guys) can come up with a solution. A.J.