New ideas, new problems 2008

[John W]

Al,
you make it sound like gun control is the beginning of the end to freedom. I'm sure not many (outside of the US anyway) would see it that way. That's just an attempt to boulster an argument with things that may or maynot become related, or follow in future.

I'm in the uk, and I do own guns: shotguns and rifles. Many of my friends own all sorts of stuff. None of them own semi-automatics though - or the ones that do keep them at overseas gun clubs where the laws are different.

The major difference between here and the US is the cicumstances under which they can be kept, moved, and carried.
People still collect guns here, they just have to be responsible for how they are kept.
Mine are kept in a steel locked cabinet bolted to the wall, and the amunition is in a seperate steel cabinet the other end of the house. Neither are on view.
Having a handgun under your pillow / in the bedside cabinet is not acceptible.
I believe it is this practice that allows guns in the US to be easily gained (house burglaries etc).

Likewise we still regularly use guns here for sport. If we carry our firearms they have to be in the boot (trunk) of the car, and not visible. The amunition must be in a seperate bag/box. Nothing too onerous there.

We cannot, under any circumstances carry a concealed firearm.
I think this is possibly the biggest problem in the US, from a non residents point of view anyway.

If it were down to me I'd not allow carrying a concealed weapon.
I'd also ensure anyone that has committed murder (by any means), and where there is no doubt (actions have been witnessed), they should lose their life.
If you are prepared to take a life you should expect to lose your own. All this crap about deminished responsibility allows these sort of crimes to continue. Make the punishment fit the crime.

You already have licencing, so thats not going to change. what might though is the ability to own the likes of asualt rifles, or automatics. Its hard to justify the need for these on a sport basis, although I can see the appeal for a collector.

Anyway, I've written too much and am now late for a meeting lol

Bottom line: it might change, but I agree with Ron, there are too many other things for these guys to sort out before they start worrying about gun control.

 

[Ron Earp]

As mentioned before on a previous post, I am a relatively pro-firearm sort of guy. I have a lot of friends overseas in Europe, enjoying visiting and traveling there (I’d live there too), and many of my friends there don’t share my views on guns. And we get along just fine. <o></o>
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With an international forum discussing a topic like gun control has many pitfalls. One of those pitfalls is a misconception about US firearm laws. I’d like to cover a few common misconceptions that European (and many US non-gun enthusiasts) have about guns.<o></o> I'm not criticizing any one person or calling folks ignorant, just commenting on various gun topics that I hear folks talk about that they don't fully understand - my mom included!
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• In the US you can’t simply walk in a gun store and buy a gun and walk out. You must pass Federal background checks that have a look at your records (felons can’t buy guns), make sure you are who you say you are, and so on. Some states have a waiting period – in my own state to purchase a pistol I must:

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• Go to the Sherrif’s office and apply for a pistol permit. I must have two character references sign the permit.
• Submit the request for a permit.
• The Sherrif’s office will take the information, run it through databases and make sure I’m a good person.
• The permit will be issued after a minimum of five business days. I must return in person to claim the permit.
• Now when I actually go to use the permit to buy a gun the gun shop will perform a Federal Background check by calling into the NCIS, a national data base that has all my info. If I’m a bad guy this is the second chance they have to shut me down.

So it isn’t as easy as some would think the entire gun buying process takes at least five business days, minimum, with two federal background checks (in my state, other states are different but all have background checks). Background checks DO HAPPEN AT GUN SHOWS TOO – just exactly the same. If I go to a gun show I have to give my permit to the dealer there, he’ll call into the NCIS using his cell phone, same process. No permit, no background check, no gun.<o></o>
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• Some states do require weapons in a home to be locked up with child proof locks. Some states require guns and ammo to travel in separate boxes, firearms unloaded, and so on. Not all states do, but many have these laws.

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• As discussed earlier, while you might not like folks with legal Concealed Carry permits they are not the problem – they are law abiding citizens who happen to want to carry a firearm. You might think them odd, or nutso, but they aren’t criminals and they don’t participate in crimes. Concealed carry permits require training, fingerprinting, reoccurring training to hold, and a 100% clean record.

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• Fully automatic weapons (someone mentioned machine pistols) have been illegal to own in the US for a long long time. You can obtain a Class III weapons license to own a machine gun (Class III - rec.guns FAQ: II.F.1. General Guide to Class 3 Weapons) and you’ll be fingerprinted, interviewed, pay a lot of money to the government, and put up with the possibility of home inspection. There are few Class III weapons owners in the US, but not many. Guns must be properly stored and accounted for at all times. Paperwork is to be stored in a safe deposit box. Possession or the manufacture of a fully automatic weapon is a big time felony, you will go to jail for a long time. Automatic weapons don’t figure in the FBI crime statistics because they don’t get used in crimes – this isn’t Hollywood over here.

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• “Assault Weapon” was a cleverly manufactured term that went along with the Assault Weapon Ban (AWB - Federal Assault Weapons Ban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). An “Assault Weapon” is nothing more than a semi auto rifle that had two of the following five characteristics:

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• Folding stock
• Pistol grip
• Bayonet mount
• Flash suppressor
• Grenade launcher (you can’t own grenades and other explosives without a lot of serious licenses, irrelevant)

Now, the problem is rifles, according to the FBI Statistics in 1995, only accounted for about 3.2% of the weapons used in all homicides for that year. What percentage of those rifles were “Assault Weapons”? Not many. Works out to about 0.4% of the total weapons used in homicide for that year. Banning them would have little effect. And indeed, banning weapons based on “visual characteristics” is stupid. I bought one of my AR-15s, a semi automatic 5.56 Nato rifle with match barrel after the AWB went into place because it didn’t have i) a folding stock, ii) A bayonet mount, iii) A flash suppressor, or iv) a grenade launcher. Same rifle as the banned one, just none of those “bad guy” characteristics.<o></o>
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• There are 1000s of gun laws on the books in the US. It is illegal for felons to have guns. Illegal for them to buy guns. Illegal for mentally incompetent folks to own them. Illegal to use them in a crime. Illegal to shoot someone. Illegal to carry them concealed without proper licenses (not obtainable in all states). Illegal to have automatic weapons. Illegal to drive in a car with a loaded gun (some states). Point is, there are plenty of laws about guns already

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I hope this helps a bit to understand some of the US gun situation. I’m sure there will be many point of view disagreements on a topic like this, but I’m also sure that we’ll all still get along.<o></o>
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[David Sturch]

A.J.
At least we have some rules, that most of us try to abide by and strong governments. We have all paid the price one way or another. I would not like to live in Somalia , Sudan or the Middle East. If you look at what's going on there they all seem have the rights to bare arms.
Dave

 

[Gary]

i just don't see what the big problem is. its everyone's right to bear arms. It's just not for me. i don't like the look.

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Perhaps the issue isn't so black or white - perhaps some limits upon gun ownership are good for both proponents of gun possession and gun bans? In other words, perhaps both camps benefit from a) requiring registration of gun ownership, b) not selling guns to violent criminals, and c) requiring gun safety courses? These seem like reasonable regulations consistent with a civilized society, don't they?

It seems like it's not a question of do you let private citizens possess guns or not, rather, to what degree do you require disclosure and education of the gun possessing citizenry in order to achieve a reasonable balance between competing piorities and groups? Just my $.02.

I agree 100%!!

We told our daughter we'd buy her a .22 target rifle because she LOVES shooting her moms. We told her if she wanted it, she needs to take a Hunters Education Course or join the 4H Shooting Sports program. She's too into girly stuff at the moment, but she can't go shooting with us until that's done.

Education is key, that's an understatement. The more you know, the better off you are, period. Ignorance is what gets people killed.

I live in Texas, so gun rights are a big thing here. I have a .40 caliber pistol that stays in my truck, a .308 caliber H&K G3 assault rifle and Remington 870 12 gauge tactical shotgun that stay at home. We also have a Savage .243 bolt action that my wife used to hunt, as well as a couple of .22's for fun. We live in the country. Guns are tools, to an extent. But I will not lie and say that my G3 is a tool I use every day. It's not. It's a big, mean, badass looking assault rifle that I use to scare people at shooting ranges and to punish paper targets and old metal freon tanks we find in the back part of our property. But the shotgun & .22's serve a purpose. As does the .243.

Yes, it's fun as hell to shoot things. If you've never done it, you don't know what you're missing and if you've never shot a gun and are completely and totally against guns, then you need to go shooting with a compitent and responsible gun owner. You may change your tune.

That's all for me.

Brian

 

[Mike]

I own and collect guns. Missouri allows (relatively recent change) guns (loaded) in the car. The original thread’s video testimony clearly shows one shortcoming with this. Mo. now allows “concealed carry” also, subject to all the rules and training and competence tests required to qualify.
39 states allow “concealed carry”. 9 other states have some form of legal “carry” laws.

1. I totally agree with Ron that this has to be ‘Way Down’ on the priority list of the Pres. Elect’s agenda.

Having said this,
2. We have multitudes of gun laws. We don’t have the inclination, or time, or manning to enforce them. The “feel good” approach to government is to enact some new mandate, then sit back and pat yourself on the back for how you’re “being pro-active” and “making things better”. It doesn’t make a rats whether it is remotely practical or realistic. Guns are not about to disappear from the U.S. in the foreseeable future, so the question is how to deal with them.

3. Re. training. Absolutely, you should have a clue before you’re allowed to handle a weapon…but how about a 4000 lb projectile that kills orders of magnitude more people per year? Wikipidia says 112-113 people were killed PER DAY in 2007. I can’t find a good number for gun homicides on the web. The few ‘hits’ are obviously either very left or very right wing. One stat suggests a .027+ rate, putting the number of gun murders in the mid 800’s. Any one on the forum have a good number for murders (Not suicides etc)?

The absolute minimal qualifications and virtually zero recurrent ‘competency’ requirements for driver’s licenses is in my mind a crime, but there aren’t any ‘movements’ picketing Washington for this. Example: a 90+ year old ‘in-law’, wheel chair confined, drives a Mercedes with the cruise control because he can’t put pressure on the pedals. His passenger mirror is torn off from a ‘slight’ sideswipe with a truck. Oh, did I mention he is a ‘man of influence’.

I think we have just about all the laws we need (undecided on assault weapons, regardless of semantics with suppressors or bayonet mountings etc.). If we’re serious about weapons ownership, lets put some emphasis on some standardization between states and enforcing the laws we have.

 

[Chris Duncan]

The NWO can't have the citizenry armed, it will conflict with their takeover, like the initiation of the NAU. (get ready for the Amero)

Hence the trial gun grab in New Orleans after Katrina under the NWO bushies.

YouTube - NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina

 

[Jack]

This is an education thing that goes far beyond what most realize.

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

An interesting thread to me - Thanks for the explanation of US gun law Ron, seems relatively sensible to an 'outsider' like me...

Strangely enough it was a (then) legally owned automatic 'assault' weapon that Michael Ryan used at Hungerford (AK47) and as I understand it, there are still a lot of fully automatic weapons out there that were converted from decomissioned / deactivated items, sold without a licence being required.

A short while ago a UK person was jailed for purchase of 100 x Mach10 type weapons that were supplied for 'film use'. Purchased as black firing guns, he then converted them with his machining skills to fully functional weapons, for sale to crims on an underground market. The police I believe have only traced about half of them thus far.

Sorry - completely gone off thread now....I'll shut up....:thumbsup:

 

[Jim Nielsen]

As far as kids getting shot in school there is no gun law going to rectify that. The kid that brings a gun to school and shoots someone is not going to obey a law. The criminals will always have guns. Proper education of kids is what is necessary. I am from a farm and had guns arround all my life. We were taught from an early age proper use.
I agree there are more important things on the table to take care of but trust me there is someone wanting to get them banned and will try to do it when you arent looking if they can. A gun by itself never killed anyone. A gun in the hands of a law abaiding educated person has saved alot of lives. If the criminals dont have guns they will use knives, cars and bats. So do we make all those illeagle? I agree you dont just sell a gun to any one. I believe in those buying guns should be instructed on use and responsability.

.02
Jim

 

[John W]

Ron, very informative post.

I guess your right that some people assume its a free-for-all in the US.
I did know most of what you posted, but not all, and that's probably because I'm a gun guy anyway.

I think the tricky bit is the inconsistency between states. The business of locking them up securely is a must imo.

I didn't realise you had a different procedure for right to conceal licences. Sounds like a good idea.

Sure, those that want to get illegal guns will still do so, regardless of the laws. If they have no respect for the laws now that will not change.
Harder penalties will help though. On TV here last night in Durban, SA, a guy was openly telling how he had killed two policemen in order to get their guns to do further roberies. His punishment ? 8 years inside. He said he had no remorse, he needed to do it, and went on to explain how he would do the same again, or threaten children in order to get what he wanted. In my book he'd have lost his own life by now. Changing the gun law would not get him off the streets, proper punishment would.

Those who carry guns, just like knives, are often prepared to use them.
The big problem here in Europe is the issue over what is self defence.
A guy a few years back now shot a couple of guys who were trying to steal property from him. He was in his farmhouse, and used his shotgun (I think) that he had a licence for. Despite the fact he was protecting his property from thieves he got sent down for it...

As you say its subjective, depending on where you live and what your used to. I'd say to have all states abide by the same law makes sense, but whose set of laws do you adopt...

 

[John W]

As luck would have it, there is a programme on satellite tv here talking about extreme marksmen. Some lovely looking rifles being used for 1000 yard shots

 

[Al Jones]

First - thank you Bill M for a thread that,unlike most, has stayed on track.
Second - John W,gun control is NOT a precursor to loss of freedom but without the right to bear arms the citizenry has no recourse to defend itself against personal attack or governmental supression.My statement was only one of historical fact;we're obviously not going to let our government go that way but incremental losses in freedom add up to big ones.As stated, we have a bunch of laws on the books already.We don't need more,we need to make the ones we have work.And we need to take responsibility for making sure our kids are raised properly so they don't abuse this right.
Third - David S,we might have to come up with some standardization between states but the process to legally own a gun in the US is pretty stringent.As far as the situation in Somalia, Sudan and the rest,this is the result of ANARCHY,no government and no control rather than a permissive government or anyone's actual 'right'....everyone,every faction for themselves;the guy with the biggest gun and the most ammo wins.It has devolved into total lawlessness with money and qaat as the motivator.A kind of huge ghetto that I alluded to
previously.
Ron,thanks for pointing out the specifics of what's required.There are those who may think we just walk into a store and come out equipped to start a small war.Ain't so,friends.This is not Dodge City in the 1880's but you would think so if you walked through Bridgeport or Baltimore on a Saturday night.That's it,I've used my quota of kilobits for the rest of the year. A.J.

 

[Jack]

Okay, I agree totally with Al. I have both a permit to carry and posess a small collection ranging from target rifles and pistols to "assault weapons". I have been shooting since childhood when my Father instructed me, and schooled me about the "Right to bear arms". The bad guy's will always get guns (that's why they are bad guy's/felons/criminals). We "good guys" should continue the fight to maintain our Constitutional Rights, eroding as they are.

 

[Cliff Beer]

My favorite gun-related bumper stickers...

1. "Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people"
2. "Insured by Smith & Wesson"
3. "Keep honking, I'm reloading"

 

[Mark Worthington]

I agree that the Obama administration has more important things to do than revisit the poorly named Assault Weapons Ban. Cops on the street as well as statistics will tell you that gun violence is overwhelmingly committed by criminals and gang members associated with the drug trade rather than law-abiding gun owners, particularly those who have a permit for concealed carry. Cops will also tell you that if the existing laws had been enforced by the judicial system, most of the gun crime wouldn't have happened because the perps would've been off the street. More laws aren't the answer, better law enforcement, education, and training are.

I have a concealed carry permit and I often carry a firearm (9 mm Walther). I have a safe full of pistols, rifles and shotguns, and a good-sized stockpile of ammo. I take training courses and shoot competitively and I strive to be proficient in the use of firearms. I have taught my wife and three children to shoot safely, and we all enjoy spending time together at the range. I like guns, but nobody has anything to fear from me or from my firearms unless they pose an immediate and severe threat to me or my family.

 

[John W]

Al,
I'm not sure how you qualify gun law changes with the right to defend against governmental suppression. To me that heads down the road of the anarchy you mention in other parts of the world. I know no one wants to give up a lvel of freedom, and respect what your getting at.

Mark, I do agree that to enforce the current laws would be a better approach, and if you can't do so due to lack of manpower (or whatever) how can the police be expected to enforce even more laws. This is why I say proper punishment has to be the answer.
Take the people out of circulation for good, not just for a while.

If two men have an argument and have no weapons they will use fists, and maybe pick up other things to hand (bottles, glasses, tyre irons, etc). If either of them has a gun he is likely to use it, regardless of whether it is in defence or offence. If he doesn't it'll almost certainly be used against him.
This is the reasoning behind why the UK would not allow even small pistols to be carried when they revamped the law here.

Have a read of this link:
Think tank: If each of us carried a gun . . . -Times Online

I sincerely hope you guys don't lose the right to your guns, but do think it makes sense (from an foreigners point of view) to have the same law in all states. I can't see it happening though as your states are as diverse as the countries in Europe...

 

[Randy V]

I'm certain that Ron meant N.C.I.C. (National Crime Information Center) rather than N.C.I.S. (Naval Criminal Investigative Service) in his post above..

I also have rid myself of any guns (Hand as well as Rifle/Shotgun) since returning home from the service during Vietnam.

I live in a very densely populated inner city of Minneapolis. Despite the cold of the winters, we still have a lot of violent crime on the streets. On a warm summer saturday night, you can stand out on my back stairs and listen carefully. You will hear gunshots. The ones you see on the news or newspapers are only a percentage of those shots that made someone(s) a victim of a shooting.

I hear - with very distressing frequency - of too many children that are hurt or killed by others just playing with Mommy or Daddy's weapons.

I reject the notion that the presense of another gun in the house "would have changed" the outcome of a break-in for the better. Since there is no way to go back and change the circumstances and re-play the scenario, it's all up to conjecture. Indeed the situations may have even been made worse.

If you chose to own a weapon - you had better make sure of the following;

1) You are well versed in the ordinances / laws surrounding their keeping and use
2) Have a good and secure place to store it when not within your immediate reach
3) You are well versed in it's operation
4) You are actually capable of using it as deadly force rather than just a visual threat.

To item 4 above;

I can't tell you how many people I knew in the military that were marksmen but literally froze up when it came time to use their weapon as deadly force. I was one of those people - initially - but quite luckily was shaken to reality in time to not only defend myself but to become the aggressor. My pause was but only for a moment on a clear shot. He fired off a couple of rounds before I was able to summon the courage to react. He lost. But what did those two rounds he fired off do? I'll never know.
It became easier after that. Too easy.

I wish now that somehow we could magically make all guns disappear across the face of the Earth. Wishes are just that.

2nd Amendment -
I am one of those that believe that this was written not to protect ourselves from each other or from the government itself but to protect the country itself from external aggressors. Our military of the time was in it's infancy and needed that support. Indeed it was an ammendment. One that itself was ammended many times. Perhaps it needs yet another.

I choose to remain unarmed. For now.

God watch over all of us...

 

[Jack]

Well spoken Randy. I too share your exact experience (4). Too easy becomes scary after a few years. That's why I did not own any weapons for quite a few years after
returning to the "world". An incident involving a neighbor who went to his door to answer the doorbell and was shot in the head changed my mind. Took up arms again after that. Your items 1-4 are well stated and my rules exactly

Jack..

 

[Mike]

I can't agree with John W.'s view re. 2 guys getting into an argument will degenerate into one of them pulling a gun. That's a Wild West movie scene that doesn't reflect reality. Quite the opposite, I believe having a weapon tends to make you avoid confrontation, because you can't help realize the very final consequences of pulling that weapon. It is a sobering thought. You wouldn't pull it except as a very last resort...and if it WAS a last resort, you might be very glad you had the option. Again, refer to the original post and attached video of Susan.
A look at Florida's gun laws, which was one of the first to allow concealed carry, supports the point. Nay sayers predicted a new Wild West. Reality shows a noticeable reduction in armed felonies and shootings. It may have something to do with the fact that the criminals now have to worry if the target might shoot back. An earlier post said it, "it's not the armed citizen that's the threat, it's the criminal". He's going to have access to a gun regardless of the "laws".