Kiwi scratchbuilt
- Thread starter Russ Noble
- Start date
Hi Russ, First things first, Great to hear that you have got the miss fixed and the car is starting to get some mileage on it and starting to show the results you are hoping for and cudos to your driving as well, as cars can't win races without someone who knows what hes doing behide the wheel. Great shots as well, I showed one of my mates the other night and he asked why I'm not building one of those, I then sugested he should and I would help him. Watch this space.
In answer to your PM, yes please!! I love to read anything written about the M20. I read an article by Pete Lyons when he went for a ride with Reter Revson in the M8F.
I haven't done anything on the Trans this time home as I have been working on my 4x4 as I'm taking the kids away for a few days over Newyears so nonthing to report there. My address is : 24 Tainui Terrace,
Inglewood, 4330
Taranaki
Anyway , have a good Christmas and Newyear and good luck at SFOS. What are the dates as I'm back in country on the 10th of Feb.
Cheers Leonmac
In answer to your PM, yes please!! I love to read anything written about the M20. I read an article by Pete Lyons when he went for a ride with Reter Revson in the M8F.
I haven't done anything on the Trans this time home as I have been working on my 4x4 as I'm taking the kids away for a few days over Newyears so nonthing to report there. My address is : 24 Tainui Terrace,
Inglewood, 4330
Taranaki
Anyway , have a good Christmas and Newyear and good luck at SFOS. What are the dates as I'm back in country on the 10th of Feb.
Cheers Leonmac
The answer to that Leon is the M20 will be lighter, faster, quicker to build, and more importantly, real race cars don't have a roof!
Winging it's way toward you as we speak. With any luck you'll have a bit of light reading for Christmas Day....
Thanks, you and yours too!
Ruapuna 8-10 Feb
Levels 15-17 Feb
Teretonga 22-24 Feb
Have just whipped the motor and trans out of the car to give them a bit of a check over and stripped out the uprights to check everything there too. Have found that I've got a problem with the ball bearing that takes the side thrust, it is not standing up too well, a lot of wear. I am going to have to go to a heavier duty version in the same size. Lim is teeing up some from Singapore in the next few days, the cost of buying them locally here is ridiculous, particularly if I have to replace them every few meetings.
So the car's in bits again......
My appearance at practice for the Ron Silvester Memorial race on 1 Nov prompted a brief piece in the latest 'NZ Racer'.....
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Hi Russ, Thanks, that mag arrived today and I had a quick flick through it, will sit down and enjoy it when I have some time after Christmas day madness has past.
Interesting about the bearings, is it just the rears or are the fronts doing the same?? if you give me the bearing inner and outer specs I will compare with the Tapper Nissan ones, it might not be a big deal to change and you can buy a set for both sides for around $200. Looking at your set up it is similar to mine, and might just be a case of sizing. Are you using the same size bearings front and rear??
Anyway thanks for the Mag and will hear from you latter, and send me your address so I can post this back once I have read it.
Cheers Leonmac.
Interesting about the bearings, is it just the rears or are the fronts doing the same?? if you give me the bearing inner and outer specs I will compare with the Tapper Nissan ones, it might not be a big deal to change and you can buy a set for both sides for around $200. Looking at your set up it is similar to mine, and might just be a case of sizing. Are you using the same size bearings front and rear??
Anyway thanks for the Mag and will hear from you latter, and send me your address so I can post this back once I have read it.
Cheers Leonmac.
Front and rear are the same size and are both showing excessive wear. I have a needle roller for the outer and these are fine. It is just the deep groove ball bearing that is on the inner and takes the side thrust that is chopping out. It is a 6308, 40x90x23 and is commonly a Hi Lux rear. The heavy duty version that I am going to try is a DL308 and it is shielded, not sealed, but that shouldn't be a worry.
Changing to taper rollers inner and outer is a major, major mission and it makes more sense to just have a strict bearing replacement regime. However the DL308s may be all that is required to overcome the problem. As always, time will tell......
WRT the mag. Look on it as a Christmas present. It's yours to keep :thumbsup:
Now, its just been pointed out that I've made a cockup in the dates given above for SFOS. The races are of course run on the weekends and the correct dates are
Ruapuna 5-7 Feb
Levels 12-14 Feb
Teretonga 19-21 Feb
Must have been too much blood in my alcohol stream that night..........
There are some good action pics, due to arrive very shortly, taken at the Ruapuna club day that I will post on my thread in the RaceTrack sub forum when I get them.
Thanks Jac Mac,
This modern wonder that is the internet never ceases to amaze me......I can search worldwide with queries but the answer always seem to lie in my back yard!!! :speechless:
The DL308s are enroute from Singapore right now. I will fit them and see how they last, and look at getting some QJ308s if need be.
This modern wonder that is the internet never ceases to amaze me......I can search worldwide with queries but the answer always seem to lie in my back yard!!! :speechless:
The DL308s are enroute from Singapore right now. I will fit them and see how they last, and look at getting some QJ308s if need be.
Russ,
I was looking at the next size up in a single row angular contact NTN 7308C this has 15 Deg contact on the race. High Precision. Much along I guess with your QJ308.
Dave
I was looking at the next size up in a single row angular contact NTN 7308C this has 15 Deg contact on the race. High Precision. Much along I guess with your QJ308.
Dave
Russ
Great to see you getting some action, those pics look great and you have really captured the intent of the car with its stance. Sadly my Mclaren has been idle due to moving house, ran out of space and the hill was getting to hard on the grannies so found a large flat site close to Murrays Bay Beach and have been hard at work building a granny flat and hope to move them in some time January. Then I can start building my workshop. Hopefully I can remember where I have stored all my stuff around work and friends. Looking forward to the big Mclaren race meeting at Hampton Downs in January, strictly as a spectator, there are over 160 overseas entries and something like 48 Formula 5000`s entered so it should be awsome.
Hope your bearings work out and all the best for the new year.
Cheers
Great to see you getting some action, those pics look great and you have really captured the intent of the car with its stance. Sadly my Mclaren has been idle due to moving house, ran out of space and the hill was getting to hard on the grannies so found a large flat site close to Murrays Bay Beach and have been hard at work building a granny flat and hope to move them in some time January. Then I can start building my workshop. Hopefully I can remember where I have stored all my stuff around work and friends. Looking forward to the big Mclaren race meeting at Hampton Downs in January, strictly as a spectator, there are over 160 overseas entries and something like 48 Formula 5000`s entered so it should be awsome.
Hope your bearings work out and all the best for the new year.
Cheers
Russell, I'm sure you appreciate the buzz I'm getting just having the car going after such a lot of work and time. You would have been the same, it's a most satisfying experience!
I would have loved to have gone up to Hampton Down to watch, and also possibly while in town get to see your car 'in the flesh', but unfortunately work commitments and race meetings either side of it just make that impossible. Bummer!
I would have loved to have gone up to Hampton Down to watch, and also possibly while in town get to see your car 'in the flesh', but unfortunately work commitments and race meetings either side of it just make that impossible. Bummer!
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Hi Russ
I have been reading the posts regarding your choice of bearings for front and rear hubs.
I am curious and I am sure there are a lot of others out there curious as well as to why you headed down that track and not just used double taper combination.
You obviously had a good a reason at the time.
thanks
KB
I have been reading the posts regarding your choice of bearings for front and rear hubs.
I am curious and I am sure there are a lot of others out there curious as well as to why you headed down that track and not just used double taper combination.
You obviously had a good a reason at the time.
thanks
KB
Ah Kevin,
A good and incisive question , and one that I have been asking myself a lot lately.... :laugh:
Actually it is a setup that was first used by Bruce on his CanAm cars. I remember reading about it in an article some time ago and liked the idea for several reasons. Basically the needle roller takes most of the radial loads, which with wide offset wheels are a lot higher than normal, and the deep groove ball on the inner controls the side thrust.
The benefits should be greater bearing longevity and this should certainly be true of the needle rollers. Because there is no preload on the bearings there should be less friction/less heat/less rolling resistance all of which are desirable attributes and of course as opposed to taper rollers there is no need to be continually adjusting them.
In fact you can't, so that is the downside. When you get a little bit of wear they must be replaced. I must admit, bearing in mind the wider tyres, greater down force, higher speeds, and length of races in the CanAm Series, I never expected to have to replace any of them after less than one hundred laps. However the article I was reading didn't go into specifics so more than likely they may have been using the much more heavy duty (and expensive) 4 point high axial thrust type as mentioned by Jac Mac.
One of the benefits of the 4 point bearing, besides taking higher loads, is that it has a split inner so it is possible for cheapskate kiwis to grind a few microns off the flat mating surfaces to take up any slight wear.......:idea:
The DL308s arrived yesterday from Singapore $20 ea, as opposed to $120 ea for the same brand to buy them here locally. Sometimes we get totally shafted on pricing in this not always idyllic paradise! Unfortunately because I wanted them quickly, fast freight was $25 ea but they still work at about 1/3 the price! The DL308s have 11 balls as opposed to the 8 in the 6308s and they are very smooth and have a really nice feel to them. These are the equivalent of the 7308Cs that Dave was talking about.
However I think the QJ308s are what I will wind up using when these new bearings are done so I will freight some in by the cheaper slow freight so I have them on hand when I need them. $70 ea in Singapore, I shudder to think what they would cost here!
So there we are, a bit of a saga along the lines of a little information can be a dangerous thing!
But like everything else, we will get on top of it (eventually!) :thumbsup:
As you suggested, I had a good reason at the time, I think the reasoning is still valid, it's just a matter of establishing the detail.
Now all I need is some smart arse to inform me that McLarens only used it for one meeting before going back to the tapers.... Jac Mac?????
I might have to have a chat to Wally Willmot at the SKOPE......
A good and incisive question , and one that I have been asking myself a lot lately.... :laugh:
Actually it is a setup that was first used by Bruce on his CanAm cars. I remember reading about it in an article some time ago and liked the idea for several reasons. Basically the needle roller takes most of the radial loads, which with wide offset wheels are a lot higher than normal, and the deep groove ball on the inner controls the side thrust.
The benefits should be greater bearing longevity and this should certainly be true of the needle rollers. Because there is no preload on the bearings there should be less friction/less heat/less rolling resistance all of which are desirable attributes and of course as opposed to taper rollers there is no need to be continually adjusting them.
In fact you can't, so that is the downside. When you get a little bit of wear they must be replaced. I must admit, bearing in mind the wider tyres, greater down force, higher speeds, and length of races in the CanAm Series, I never expected to have to replace any of them after less than one hundred laps. However the article I was reading didn't go into specifics so more than likely they may have been using the much more heavy duty (and expensive) 4 point high axial thrust type as mentioned by Jac Mac.
One of the benefits of the 4 point bearing, besides taking higher loads, is that it has a split inner so it is possible for cheapskate kiwis to grind a few microns off the flat mating surfaces to take up any slight wear.......:idea:
The DL308s arrived yesterday from Singapore $20 ea, as opposed to $120 ea for the same brand to buy them here locally. Sometimes we get totally shafted on pricing in this not always idyllic paradise! Unfortunately because I wanted them quickly, fast freight was $25 ea but they still work at about 1/3 the price! The DL308s have 11 balls as opposed to the 8 in the 6308s and they are very smooth and have a really nice feel to them. These are the equivalent of the 7308Cs that Dave was talking about.
However I think the QJ308s are what I will wind up using when these new bearings are done so I will freight some in by the cheaper slow freight so I have them on hand when I need them. $70 ea in Singapore, I shudder to think what they would cost here!
So there we are, a bit of a saga along the lines of a little information can be a dangerous thing!
But like everything else, we will get on top of it (eventually!) :thumbsup:As you suggested, I had a good reason at the time, I think the reasoning is still valid, it's just a matter of establishing the detail.
Now all I need is some smart arse to inform me that McLarens only used it for one meeting before going back to the tapers.... Jac Mac?????
I might have to have a chat to Wally Willmot at the SKOPE......
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One could argue/debate that using two taper roller brgs some distance apart in an alloy/ magnesium upright with a steel axle would require some allowance for the greater expansion of the upright & the effect that would/could have on brg preload. In that instance Russ's idea of one thrust type brg is good, next best would be back to back tapers with an outboard roller or ball race. What Im thinking is given the upright failure you have already experienced that if you still have any deflection in that area the ball race will be objecting to that...eg: the bearing is trying to show you whats wrong.
I have considered the back to back tapers in recent days but this would entail a new uprights and spindles. Not a course I intend to follow unless other avenues are exhausted. I think the existing system will be fine, it's just a case of using the right spec bearings.
I am sure the bearing housing is sufficiently stout that there is no deflection there. Minimum WT 5mm and OD is just over 100.
Good suggestions, as always, Jac Mac.
I am sure the bearing housing is sufficiently stout that there is no deflection there. Minimum WT 5mm and OD is just over 100.
Good suggestions, as always, Jac Mac.
What about double taper with the needle roller in the middle.???
When looking at my rears, they use 2 tapered rollers which I think are 3208s (40mm x 68 mm) but there is only a couple of mm between them and I wonder if this is a good combo.
I'd appreciate some comment.
I am not that happy with the axle either so looking to do some wider arrangement.
KB
When looking at my rears, they use 2 tapered rollers which I think are 3208s (40mm x 68 mm) but there is only a couple of mm between them and I wonder if this is a good combo.
I'd appreciate some comment.
I am not that happy with the axle either so looking to do some wider arrangement.
KB
I think the needle roller in the middle would be redundant. I think in that scenario, the taper rollers would be providing the support and doing all the work.
The idea is the needle rollers are outboard and take nearly all the radial load. I'm hoping my new balls will last a lot longer and not suffer the premature rejection that my old ones did! Otherwise it's back to the drawing board and maybe a pair of back to back tapers for the inner.
I wonder how the rear hub bearing assemblies on the likes of Commodore, Falcon, Corvette maybe some Japppas and no doubt others would hold up under the racing loads imposed by 14" wheels configured with a small back spacing....? Or indeed the average GT40 road car? From what I can gather RF use Commodore, DRB and RCR Corvette. Something like that could be a good option for your car. Commodore stuff has got to be readily available in our neck of the woods. Or maybe you could just go with more widely spaced tapers.....
The idea is the needle rollers are outboard and take nearly all the radial load. I'm hoping my new balls will last a lot longer and not suffer the premature rejection that my old ones did!
Otherwise it's back to the drawing board and maybe a pair of back to back tapers for the inner.I wonder how the rear hub bearing assemblies on the likes of Commodore, Falcon, Corvette maybe some Japppas and no doubt others would hold up under the racing loads imposed by 14" wheels configured with a small back spacing....? Or indeed the average GT40 road car? From what I can gather RF use Commodore, DRB and RCR Corvette. Something like that could be a good option for your car. Commodore stuff has got to be readily available in our neck of the woods. Or maybe you could just go with more widely spaced tapers.....
Russ
IRS Commodores and I guess Falcons use a double row ball bearing as per picture.
This type of bearing is also common is FWD vehicles
In the case of the Commodore I think from memory they are 37 X 72 x 37 or close to that.
Corvette is the same arrangement I believe
This bearing is also used on the front of Nissan Skyline, Cefiro etc
A heavier version of this is used in the front of the Skyline turbo 4WDs
IRS Commodores and I guess Falcons use a double row ball bearing as per picture.
This type of bearing is also common is FWD vehicles
In the case of the Commodore I think from memory they are 37 X 72 x 37 or close to that.
Corvette is the same arrangement I believe
This bearing is also used on the front of Nissan Skyline, Cefiro etc
A heavier version of this is used in the front of the Skyline turbo 4WDs
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