302 main bearings
- Thread starter Skorpion
- Start date
The only explanation for the cam failure inside of twenty miles would be incorrect cam/lifter break in procedure. Its probably been left idling after rebuild, thats enough to wipe out a cam. The scuffed pistons are probably from the tighter of the bores unless its also been cooked. I think you need to get the block to a decent engineering shop and have it honed, hot tanked and flushed out . Fit a new set of pop up pistons to address the low compression issues and call it a day till you upgrade to a stroker. At least there is plenty of material left in the bores till you get to 040 oversized.
Bob
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Cleaned the block today for a second time.
Now waiting for a quote from a local engine shop for honing, removing paint and good inside cleaning.
Also removed the pistong rings and cleaned all the pistons.
Some pistons insides were really burried in a kind of mud but they came out nice.
Let's wait what they quote says for the engine shop.
Now waiting for a quote from a local engine shop for honing, removing paint and good inside cleaning.
Also removed the pistong rings and cleaned all the pistons.
Some pistons insides were really burried in a kind of mud but they came out nice.
Let's wait what they quote says for the engine shop.
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Found some pictures of the dismantling of the engine.
YOu can see the mud after 20 miles of running :stunned:
and one lifter and camlobe which were lacking oil or a break-in issue.
Engine is now clean, ready to start ordering the new parts and honing balls.
Sounds dirty :laugh:
YOu can see the mud after 20 miles of running :stunned:
and one lifter and camlobe which were lacking oil or a break-in issue.
Engine is now clean, ready to start ordering the new parts and honing balls.
Sounds dirty :laugh:
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This pic of the 'mud' or sludge in the pan suggests that there has also been water getting into the oil, if the oil pan, heads and block were similarily clean at the time of the previous build then the discolouration of the oil has been due to cam lobe failure along with sludge buildup and lobe failure due to possible not enough care taken with valve spring pressure etc along with assembly tips that mike & others have drawn attention to. It almost looks like someone has wire brushed the oil galleries and forgotten to flush them out or perhaps used a detergent base oil for run in that cleaned them during that period.
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If your measurements of the bores are anywhere near accurate honing balls wont bring the bores to size, they are really only for glaze busting and putting a finish on the bores. The amount that needs to come out of the tight bores to get them to size will need to be done with a power hone like a Delapena.
Bob
Mike Pass
Supporter
That looks pretty grim. Somebody didn't do it right. Take the block to a shop with the proper equipment who can hone it with proper stones to an exact size so the bores are cylindrical, cross hatched and true using a a torque plate to simulate the distortion when the heads are torqued down.
Cheers
Mike
Cheers
Mike
A real bore/hone session here in Belgium costs a fortune and it is cheaper to buy a refurbished block in the States which is prepped as a stroker. I had the plan to use this engine for the first year so no need to have this one perfect.
The block and all clearances look okay but...there is always a but...on inspection the inlet manifold (after cleaning) revealed
a) the chrome is turning black and chipping off (only cosmetic - not a showstopper)
b) noticeable machining grooves on the surface which can be felt quite severe. Scotch brite will not help to flatten them out.
c) the water hole passage are enlarged too big (see water mark). The gasket was not on the right spot and perhaps the bottom of the gasket was not able to seal the hole.
d) the "grinded?" surface is curved. Imagine the inlet is sitting on the engine. The front and rear edges are curved downwards so the middle shows a gap. See picture. I was able to put a feeler guage in 0.15 mm = 0.006" which feels will not be flatten out on tightening. Together with this bad surface, I can imagine this is a big risk trying to re use it.
Reconsidering the plan again of trying to safe this engine:shout:
The block and all clearances look okay but...there is always a but...on inspection the inlet manifold (after cleaning) revealed
a) the chrome is turning black and chipping off (only cosmetic - not a showstopper)
b) noticeable machining grooves on the surface which can be felt quite severe. Scotch brite will not help to flatten them out.
c) the water hole passage are enlarged too big (see water mark). The gasket was not on the right spot and perhaps the bottom of the gasket was not able to seal the hole.
d) the "grinded?" surface is curved. Imagine the inlet is sitting on the engine. The front and rear edges are curved downwards so the middle shows a gap. See picture. I was able to put a feeler guage in 0.15 mm = 0.006" which feels will not be flatten out on tightening. Together with this bad surface, I can imagine this is a big risk trying to re use it.
Reconsidering the plan again of trying to safe this engine:shout:
Attachments
Mike Pass
Supporter
Hi Andy,
The manifold looks like an Edelbrock Performer RPM with the "Endurashine" finish which is a bit bling. I believe that it is not actual chrome but is a metallic looking powder coating. If the machined faces which meet the heads are not flat they can be lightly skimmed if you know someone with a milling machine. If not then they can be made flat by glueing some carborundum paper onto something very flat like a big sheet of glass or mdf. Then rub the warped surface on this until it is flat, checking with a good straight edge steel ruler. The Edelbrock Performer RPM is a good dual plane manifold and ideal for a street engine - I have one on my car and it works well. With a bit of work it should be OK. Remove the minimum of material to get it the mating surfaces flat.
Cheers
Mike
The manifold looks like an Edelbrock Performer RPM with the "Endurashine" finish which is a bit bling. I believe that it is not actual chrome but is a metallic looking powder coating. If the machined faces which meet the heads are not flat they can be lightly skimmed if you know someone with a milling machine. If not then they can be made flat by glueing some carborundum paper onto something very flat like a big sheet of glass or mdf. Then rub the warped surface on this until it is flat, checking with a good straight edge steel ruler. The Edelbrock Performer RPM is a good dual plane manifold and ideal for a street engine - I have one on my car and it works well. With a bit of work it should be OK. Remove the minimum of material to get it the mating surfaces flat.
Cheers
Mike
Andy, you have to remember that this whole car was built using mostly parts given to him from our scrap bins, parts that we had already consigned as no further use. He regularly visited both Mick and myself scrounging anything we would be throwing away, so its not surprising that scrap yard parts are not good!
Andy, purely out of interest, what is the cost of having a block honed/bored in Belgium?
There are three different versions of inlet manifold gaskets for Windsor engines- the early 289/302 which would have water passage size close to your intake manifold size- 351 w which has provison for an extra bolt at each corner and is 'L' shaped, and the later '5.0' liter gasket which has a larger 'square hole' water passage and appears to be what your engine was using going by the 'watermark'.
There are three different versions of inlet manifold gaskets for Windsor engines- the early 289/302 which would have water passage size close to your intake manifold size- 351 w which has provison for an extra bolt at each corner and is 'L' shaped, and the later '5.0' liter gasket which has a larger 'square hole' water passage and appears to be what your engine was using going by the 'watermark'.
Hi Jac,
Slighly hone with the balls is 150 euro. (The pounds is strong now so for UK it is much less).
For a hone to spec is about 500 euro. When decking and all stuff comes in, going towards 800 euro to 1000 euro. For this money, you can buy a fully prepped one in the states (painted, with bearing and plugs renewed ready for a stroker).
Today I worked on the curved inlet manifold to see if I could straighten the surface. Nothing to loose...
One side was quite flat, and the other side only the edge were high spots... After a couple of hours sanding the high spots (old fashion way - sanding <> looking <> sanding <> looking * 10000 times), I think I am very close to a flat surface.
Still can see some low spots (marks) but they are not critical anymore.
Tomorrow I will see how the old chrome let itself paint with a special engine paint. Looks like a transparent coating is detaching in some areas and in other areas the chrome is totally loose. Sanding it off will be impossible due to the many cavities. perhaps sandblaster...I which I had one
Everyday it is a pingpong between "salvage the engine" or "newbuild":drunk:
Slighly hone with the balls is 150 euro. (The pounds is strong now so for UK it is much less).
For a hone to spec is about 500 euro. When decking and all stuff comes in, going towards 800 euro to 1000 euro. For this money, you can buy a fully prepped one in the states (painted, with bearing and plugs renewed ready for a stroker).
Today I worked on the curved inlet manifold to see if I could straighten the surface. Nothing to loose...
One side was quite flat, and the other side only the edge were high spots... After a couple of hours sanding the high spots (old fashion way - sanding <> looking <> sanding <> looking * 10000 times), I think I am very close to a flat surface.
Still can see some low spots (marks) but they are not critical anymore.
Tomorrow I will see how the old chrome let itself paint with a special engine paint. Looks like a transparent coating is detaching in some areas and in other areas the chrome is totally loose. Sanding it off will be impossible due to the many cavities. perhaps sandblaster...I which I had one
Everyday it is a pingpong between "salvage the engine" or "newbuild":drunk:
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Mike Pass
Supporter
The manifold faces are now good enough to use. The gaskets will fill the remaining very small hollows. On the shiny powdercoat which is a bit bling and nasty anyway I would use chemical stripper and remove it all, wire brush and spray it silver from a can. Many of the chemical strippers are now rubbish. Try and get a professional one which contains methylene chloride - they work a treat.
Your engine prep prices are very high. Have a holiday in the UK and get it done over here.
Cheers
Mike
Your engine prep prices are very high. Have a holiday in the UK and get it done over here.
Cheers
Mike
Haha...not sure you quite got my drift regarding boats Jac...:laugh:
No, sadly, it had to go 2 years ago....
Howard Jones
Supporter
So now I'm interested....... What would be the cost of that same machine work in England guys. Couldn't the block just get shipped to England and back?
Hi Frank,
I didn't knew the guy was a regular customer searching for the cheapest parts.
I had already this feeling during dismantling of the car. Good to get confirmation. some people on this forum praised the guy's buildingskills in his advert :stunned:
not surprisingly I am replacing almost every part, bolt and nut on this car.
Do you have more background on this engine ?
It would make the decision easier whether it is wise to continue investing time and money in it.
If you have other background info about the car, gearbox, engine or any of its parts, let me know via PM. This car deserves to become a safe and good handling drivers car.
I didn't knew the guy was a regular customer searching for the cheapest parts.
I had already this feeling during dismantling of the car. Good to get confirmation. some people on this forum praised the guy's buildingskills in his advert :stunned:
not surprisingly I am replacing almost every part, bolt and nut on this car.
Do you have more background on this engine ?
It would make the decision easier whether it is wise to continue investing time and money in it.
If you have other background info about the car, gearbox, engine or any of its parts, let me know via PM. This car deserves to become a safe and good handling drivers car.
