B.O. Supports Mosque near ground zero.

Some of you make me laugh (those of you from Europe) with the stuff you post; especially about the poor children getting mistreated. While it is an absolute atrocity to mistreat ANY CHILD it is a completely different story when THAT SAME CHILD IS HOLDING AN AK47 AND FIRING IT AT YOU. Those little sons of a gun have become such a problem that it is now standard order for the Israeli rules of engagement that the Israel army must shoot rubber bullets FIRST (ONE CLIP) in an attempt to KNOCK DOWN those POOR CHILDREN WITHOUT KILLING THEM so that they could get at the fine men standing BEHIND those same kids shooting at the military. Once the FATHERS have been dealt with all that is left is a mournful combatant child that lies to the news once reporters are allowed back in. Case in point (and some of you military guys will be able to back me up on this) that ridiculous example of the poor child that witnessed his father with hands up being what in his description as murder. How do none of you call B.S. on that. First of he was placed in a house with other people (noncombatants) and the house was rocked so hard by shells that THE HOUSE LIFTED OFF THE FLOOR :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!! Do any of you level headed men stop to ask yourself what king of shock wave would have to be generated in order to do just that? How about what the human body is actually capable of with standing. That child's ears would have been completely destroyed not to mention that his lungs would have been all but destroyed (funny how you guys from england forget what happened to you people when Hitler unleashed Blitzkrieg on you. Remember the term LUNG DEATH?). At some point you must ask yourself AM I THAT GULLIBLE? You think that they don't start to train at an early age over there? Guys stop and think for just a second and watch how you angry you get at yourself for even believing this crap.

Now there are always INNOCENT lives lost in any war and that is something that while atrocious is also UNAVOIDABLE. On that note lets talk about how Israel not only goes out of their way to avoid innocent loss but also champions it. Before they (Israel) does ANY FORM OF BOMBING they actually broadcast their intentions over loud speakers, drop panthlets and through word of mouth all telling of what's to come. After a predetermined amount of time they then proceed with the onslaught. If you get caught in the crossfire than THAT IS ON YOU PERIOD. They told you it was coming and when it happens don't act all surprised. While some families are STUCK there MOST ARE NOT!!!!!!! Either way I know when I am getting to emotional about a topic and I will back out so please continue with ths debate as that is the only way peace will ever blanket the earth.
 
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Case in point (and some of you military guys will be able to back me up on this) that ridiculous example of the poor child that witnessed his father with hands up being what in his description as murder. How do none of you call B.S. on that. First of he was placed in a house with other people (noncombatants) and the house was rocked so hard by shells that THE HOUSE LIFTED OFF THE FLOOR :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:!!!! Do any of you level headed men stop to ask yourself what king of shock wave would have to be generated in order to do just that? How about what the human body is actually capable of with standing. That child's ears would have been completely destroyed not to mention that his lungs would have been all but destroyed (funny how you guys from england forget what happened to you people when Hitler unleashed Blitzkrieg on you. Remember the term LUNG DEATH?). At some point you must ask yourself AM I THAT GULLIBLE? You think that they don't start to train at an early age over there? Guys stop and think for just a second and watch how you angry you get at yourself for even believing this crap.

Damian,

Not sure if you have seen the video, if you had a film crew were in the hospital filming when the child and his friend were bought in but I expect that was all staged as well.

As for surviving, some people walked away from under the rubble of the twin towers, there was quite a shock wave and debris then from the documentaries I have seen, and their ears were not completely destroyed. there lungs or those who were hit by the debris were not destroyed.

Even if you were correct and the hospital scenes were staged, the doctors were complicate in this, the lad who talked about his fishing boat being regularly attacked and shot at ,and his friend killed was lying. You cannot stage the games those children played and those games said everything about what they had witnessed.

The Israeli army do not always warn before fireing, you may argue children goading a tank from a distance deserved this response, I don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWpFkhH2AZA&feature=related

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
 
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Nick PLENTY of Sep-11 survivors have had complications due to to many KPA from when the towers fell (think about how many people were holding their ears or yelling when there was NO BACKGROUND NOISE). Now I said that there will always be SOME collateral damage but you must remember that an EXCEPTION TESTS A RULE NEVER PROVES IT!!! I love the way YOU didn't address the facts I posted in relation to KPA injuries on the human body.

Now if you want to throw horror stories or B.S. stories that are based in an obscuring of the truth (what the fishing guy didn't mention that NOTHING HAPPENED TO HIS BOAT IDF confirms firing at a Lebanon fishing boat - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News Oh and lets not forget that since June 2006 there has been a BLOCKADE OF ALL BOATS sailing off the coast of Gaza so what exactly was that poor fisherman doing there? It is not as if there were not plenty of fishing grounds that DID"T VIOLATE A BLOCKADE!!!!!! Way to help perpetuate B.S. Nick . Keep up the good work.) You know what; I can lead some of you to water but that doesn't mean that you will drink and with that regardless of what is posted I am done.
 
I love the way YOU didn't address the facts I posted in relation to KPA injuries on the human body.

.

Damian,

Forgot to mention, I got it wrong it was a young girl not a lad, she was taken to the house then they started firing shells at the house. She has shrapnel lodged in her brain, they were trying to get treatment for her in a hospital in Israel, as it was effecting her health but the doctors decided it was to dangerous.

Funnily, the footage of her being brought into hospital pleading for water after being rescued from the house, the X-rays they show, and filmed Israeli doctors consultation tend to make me feel it's no B.S.

I wish there was some way you could see the film.
 
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Nick, when I viewed the film, I had a number of questions and when I get some time, will review it again, and try to show the conflict that came from their explanation. Just remember that one little girl who said that Hamas brought many of the problems onto Gaza. Under Fatah, they faired better.
 
Just remember that one little girl who said that Hamas brought many of the problems onto Gaza. Under Fatah, they faired better.

Hi Domtoni,

No problems just remember what someone told me, "an EXCEPTION TESTS A RULE NEVER PROVES IT!!! "
 
Damian.... I thiiiiiiiink :lipsrsealed:....correct me if I'm wrong here.....but do you have a vested interest in Israel? Maybe you work for the Israeli Tourist Board?
Just a thought...
Do you have any religious connection to Israel in some way? You are quite vociferous in their defence.

A Mossad agent perhaps... I'm just spitballing here....

My lips are sealed.....
 
Nick
Oh and lets not forget that since June 2006 there has been a BLOCKADE OF ALL BOATS sailing off the coast of Gaza so what exactly was that poor fisherman doing there? It is not as if there were not plenty of fishing grounds that DID"T VIOLATE A BLOCKADE!!!!!!

Damian,

I don't think being in international waters would necessarily have made any difference.

Israel faced intense international condemnation and growing domestic questions on Monday after a raid by naval commandos that killed nine people, many of them Turks, on an aid flotilla bound for Gaza.

Turkey, Israel’s most important friend in the Muslim world, recalled its ambassador and canceled planned military exercises with Israel as the countries’ already tense relations soured even further. The United Nations Security Council met in emergency session over the attack, which occurred in international waters north of Gaza.
 

Keith

Moderator
(funny how you guys from england forget what happened to you people when Hitler unleashed Blitzkrieg on you. Remember the term LUNG DEATH?).

I find your remarks extremely offensive. It's not that we forget, it just that there are very very few now left alive .. and unlike you most of us in Europe have moved on to a different level of comprehension and are seeking alternative ways to solve deadly conflicts, whereas you are still fighting the Clancy family in the OK Corral with your Buntline Special.

And I know all about Lung Death.... Thank you.

Kindly do what you promised, and hereafter STFU.
 
Nick, the block breaking flotilla was set up by Bill Ayres and his wife. Bill and Bernardine are famous for their time with the Weather Underground and SDS back in the 1960s. US Liberals say he is a nobody now, but that is not what the conservatives say. The ship knew it was breaking a blockade, and was aware of the consequences.

I have seen the videos and the Isrealis were provoked.
 
Comments from another forum, written by someone with a good deal of experience with Muslims:

LinkedIn Groups

Discussion: And The Church has an official dialogue with these people why?

Not to get into great specifics as one could literally write a book on the subject (and many have been), but the earliest writings, such as Surah 9 (read 9.5 to get a good look into the sect), are not peaceful. The sect spread in it's very infancy by the sword and not by evangelization, unless one could call chopping off heads and throwing bodies down wells evangelization. I'm sorry for any Islamic apologists or those who wish to see some middle ground, but simply accepting "cherry picked" aspects of the bible does not make them, in a historical context, truly people of the book in anything other than name alone. The extremists are following the "true" faith. Those who are not actively taking up arms again Christians, Jews, and what they term pagans, are not, per the Quarn true Muslims and are to be treated just as we are to be treated per its text. That is how they justify blowing up innocents in markets and killing their own in town after town. It has nothing to do with some hokey worldwide Jewish conspiracy, the State of Israel, or US involvement in the Middle East, or even the Crusades for that matter. These actions have been blessed by Islam since the 6th century and will continue to be blessed by them. If not, their faith is void, and they become simply wandering souls with no beliefs other than that based their own subjectivity. Wow...sounds like most of Western society. Oh, and as for verses that contradict others, that the beauty of a non-religion...God changes His mind on a constantly based on whatever imam happens to have the most bars on his cell that day for a direct uplink. For Islam, it’s always “late breaking news”...God changed His mind yet again and now my favorite wife cannot be accused of adultery because the actual act has to take place in the presence of two men other in addition to the one one doing the deed. That actually happen with Mohamed...again, how convenient.
Posted by Eoin Stewart, FSA Scot
 
Nick, the block breaking flotilla was set up by Bill Ayres and his wife. Bill and Bernardine are famous for their time with the Weather Underground and SDS back in the 1960s. US Liberals say he is a nobody now, but that is not what the conservatives say. The ship knew it was breaking a blockade, and was aware of the consequences.

I have seen the videos and the Isrealis were provoked.


Domtoni,

Unfortunately that is partly my point, all the Israelis have to say is they were provoked, whether it is a group of protesters, a fishing boat, a handcuffed blindfolded protestor, a group of kids, some civilians gathering food for their animals. They then feel it is okay to fire rockets, shoot them, attack them in International waters against International law.

As an example, if being provoked gives carte blanche to act how you like, then the Chinese authorities would be justified in murdering students in Tiananmen Square, as the students were aware of the consequences and provoked the authorities.

Socrates 'rule worthy of might.'
 
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When the Isrealis attacked the boat, the boat was already in disputed waters. When a blockade is imposed (this was also by the Egyptians not just the Isrealis) the distance is not just the normal limit.

This is from Wikipedia, Isreal was in their rights to enforce the blockade:

Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At days end, the Muslim world knows they are provoking the Isrealis trying to win your sympathy. When Sharia Law comes to the UK, you will know it, your freedoms will change, and life will be no where near as good as it is now.
 
When the Isrealis attacked the boat, the boat was already in disputed waters. When a blockade is imposed (this was also by the Egyptians not just the Isrealis) the distance is not just the normal limit.

Israel had vowed to block the flotilla from reaching Gaza, accusing the organisers of embarking on "an act of provocation" against the Israeli military, and claiming its entry into the 20 nautical mile closure of the sea off Gaza


Questions have also been raised about the violation of international maritime law by Israel, after reports that the flotilla was around 80 miles from Gaza's coast when Israeli commandos boarded
 
I haven't read all the comments about the Mosque near ground zero, but I think they ( the Muslims) should be allowed to build it. In the middle of the East River!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JOSEPH

PS: Without any foundation!!!!!!!
 
Damian.... I thiiiiiiiink :lipsrsealed:....correct me if I'm wrong here.....but do you have a vested interest in Israel? Maybe you work for the Israeli Tourist Board?
Just a thought...
Do you have any religious connection to Israel in some way? You are quite vociferous in their defence.

A Mossad agent perhaps... I'm just spitballing here....

My lips are sealed.....

We have a Mossad flunky working for Obama named Rahm Emanuel.

JOSEPH
 
This is from Wikipedia, Isreal was in their rights to enforce the blockade:

[.

Domtoni,

Everone posting on this thread has their own agenda, some thoughts on the blockade from an NEUTRAL source Amnesty International.

Saliant points if you don't want to read all of it.

World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents

Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups




Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians

More than half of Gaza's population are children

© Amnesty International


1 June 2010

Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

The situation in Gaza has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s general closure of the Rafah crossing, although this was opened following the deaths of activists on the Gaza flotilla.

However, it is Israel, as the occupying power, that bears the foremost responsibility for ensuring the welfare of the inhabitants of Gaza.

Closed crossings
Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, none of the Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel has been open in a regular or consistent way, and relatively little aid is getting through.

The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

Basic goods
The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

Economic collapse
Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

Lack of facilities
There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritized.

Aid blocked
While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

The Gaza conflict
From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

Continued violence
In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries.

Collective punishment
The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.
 
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Nick, a big +1 for that post. I don't want to go over previous posts I've made, but I HAVE to reiterate that I really don't think this information is permeated by the general media in the US, and that really saddens me.
You obviously have a handle on what really happens there (IMO), as (I hope) do I.

What this debate is lacking (in some circles, I hasten to add) is....

A BALANCED VIEW

You know exactly what I'm talking about Nick, that thing that takes an issue and tries to view it from all angles and attempts to build a cohesive and factually based discussion.
Some of the statements in this whole thread are downright inflammatory and only serve to be regressive in nature. You have presented information that is from an internationally trusted source (albeit accepted to be pacifist and humanitarian at its core (no bad thing)). For that I thank you.

A BALANCED VIEW also serves to educate those with less knowledge of a situation.

Why is it that the atrocities carried out by the Palestinian militants seem to produce so many column inches and yet the reverse is not always the case?

Anyway, rambling now.... good post Nick :thumbsup:
 
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