Best ECU available in the US
- Thread starter mlevea
- Start date
Neal
Lifetime Supporter
I went back and forth on stack vs. Webers. My cobra had injection and it made it a wonderful car to drive. I don't dispute that injection offers more flexibility and perhaps driveability, but being a nostalgia buff, Webers became a must. The irony is that I work in a highly technical field and love to see the latest technology being used. Either way, it's still cool...
Don't worry about price Wayne. You have a neat setup that will sell itself.
The upside to my ECU is that there is no wiring or programming involved. The downside is that it only functions at 10% of it's capacity, it is subject to memory loss and occassionally makes irrational decisions.
Don't worry about price Wayne. You have a neat setup that will sell itself.
The upside to my ECU is that there is no wiring or programming involved. The downside is that it only functions at 10% of it's capacity, it is subject to memory loss and occassionally makes irrational decisions.
In response to some e'mails I received with regards to the newly released Haltech E11 ECU system, I'd like to share a few recently learned facts in effort to shed some light on a few issues some of you might find interesting.
First of all, despite the information shared on the Haltech webpage, the E11 is at this point in time largely unavailable. Haltech USA only received a very limited quantity of E11 systems, which are STILL intended as a Beta-evaluation release only. These may be made available to select Haltech dealers in the next few days, once the pricing schedule has been solidified. At that point, these systems will no doubt go quickly, as they have been in demand for quite some time as a result of months of rumors regarding its development/release.
I have spent some time studying the differences between the new E11 and the wildly popular E6K systems, and I must admit that I'm pleased. The E11 will allow users to run sequential injection on engines with up to 12 cylinders, waste-spark distributorless ignition on engines up to 12 cylinders, and coil-per-plug direct fire ignition on engines with up to six cylinders. It also offers two different modes of turbocharger anti-lag, one for launch control and the other for anti-lag between shifts (rally mode.) The E11 retains all of the handy auxiliary input/output functions of the E6K, and boasts greater processing power.
Something that people have been pestering Haltech for many months is Windows based tuning software. I have messed around with this new program, and am pleased to report that it has retained the user-friendliness and intuitiveness of the DOS based program it supercedes. It works exactly like the DOS program, but includes additional menus and options to take advantage of the new ECUs additional features and capability. It also has GREATLY improved datalogging and graphical depiction capabilities, thus negating the need to import text datalog files into spreadsheet programs to create graphs to represent changing engine parameters during engine operation. All this can be configured to display in real-time, an interesting feature that I've only seen before in extremely costly high-end engine management systems.
As exciting as the new E11 is, don't discount the E6K as obsolete! The biggest advantage I can see the E11 holding over the E6K is the ability to run full sequential injection and distributorless ignition. If you're a user who doesn't HAVE to have both (like myself, for example) there's money to be saved by buying an E6K instead of the E11. However, if you're leaning toward distributorless ignition anyway, or perhaps already have the crank/cam triggers necessary for the installation, the E11 is certainly a terrific way to go!
I would be willing to sponsor a group buy of any and all of Haltech products, offering a reasonable yet substantial discount. I would like to have no less than five orders, but the greater the number of committed buyers, the greater the discount I would be willing to give. Be aware that I am NOT merely an E'bay Haltech distributor (have never sold ANYTHING on E'bay, I use the same user name there as here.) Mark Le Vea can vouch for me, as we have spoken at length about how he can benefit from one of these systems. You can also call Haltech USA and ask them about me if you wish.
Please contact me off the list if you are interested in a group buy. I would like to make a large order prior to the next price increase in order to maximize everyone's savings. You can e'mail me with questions or post them here if you'd like to share the response with the rest of the crowd. Understand that I prefer to deal with folks with enough technical ability to accomplish the installation and setup on their own. This is not a good project for some kid's High School shop class, nor is it wise for somebody who has never dealt with electrical installations or is uncomfortable using a computer. Read and follow the directions, and if you really need help, I'm here to provide your solution.
Thanks in advance,
Brian Kennedy
First of all, despite the information shared on the Haltech webpage, the E11 is at this point in time largely unavailable. Haltech USA only received a very limited quantity of E11 systems, which are STILL intended as a Beta-evaluation release only. These may be made available to select Haltech dealers in the next few days, once the pricing schedule has been solidified. At that point, these systems will no doubt go quickly, as they have been in demand for quite some time as a result of months of rumors regarding its development/release.
I have spent some time studying the differences between the new E11 and the wildly popular E6K systems, and I must admit that I'm pleased. The E11 will allow users to run sequential injection on engines with up to 12 cylinders, waste-spark distributorless ignition on engines up to 12 cylinders, and coil-per-plug direct fire ignition on engines with up to six cylinders. It also offers two different modes of turbocharger anti-lag, one for launch control and the other for anti-lag between shifts (rally mode.) The E11 retains all of the handy auxiliary input/output functions of the E6K, and boasts greater processing power.
Something that people have been pestering Haltech for many months is Windows based tuning software. I have messed around with this new program, and am pleased to report that it has retained the user-friendliness and intuitiveness of the DOS based program it supercedes. It works exactly like the DOS program, but includes additional menus and options to take advantage of the new ECUs additional features and capability. It also has GREATLY improved datalogging and graphical depiction capabilities, thus negating the need to import text datalog files into spreadsheet programs to create graphs to represent changing engine parameters during engine operation. All this can be configured to display in real-time, an interesting feature that I've only seen before in extremely costly high-end engine management systems.
As exciting as the new E11 is, don't discount the E6K as obsolete! The biggest advantage I can see the E11 holding over the E6K is the ability to run full sequential injection and distributorless ignition. If you're a user who doesn't HAVE to have both (like myself, for example) there's money to be saved by buying an E6K instead of the E11. However, if you're leaning toward distributorless ignition anyway, or perhaps already have the crank/cam triggers necessary for the installation, the E11 is certainly a terrific way to go!
I would be willing to sponsor a group buy of any and all of Haltech products, offering a reasonable yet substantial discount. I would like to have no less than five orders, but the greater the number of committed buyers, the greater the discount I would be willing to give. Be aware that I am NOT merely an E'bay Haltech distributor (have never sold ANYTHING on E'bay, I use the same user name there as here.) Mark Le Vea can vouch for me, as we have spoken at length about how he can benefit from one of these systems. You can also call Haltech USA and ask them about me if you wish.
Please contact me off the list if you are interested in a group buy. I would like to make a large order prior to the next price increase in order to maximize everyone's savings. You can e'mail me with questions or post them here if you'd like to share the response with the rest of the crowd. Understand that I prefer to deal with folks with enough technical ability to accomplish the installation and setup on their own. This is not a good project for some kid's High School shop class, nor is it wise for somebody who has never dealt with electrical installations or is uncomfortable using a computer. Read and follow the directions, and if you really need help, I'm here to provide your solution.
Thanks in advance,
Brian Kennedy
I used the 10% savings for the purchase of the ProFlo EFI at Summit racing and I saved $251.00. Brought the price down to $2255.00. I also returned a Trick Flow intake manifold that I bought almost 2 years ago and they gave me a 100% credit toward this purchase. This brings my total out of pocket to only $1750.00 Yawhoo!!!
Daniel
Daniel
No, I double checked. The E11 is supposed to be able to fire 12 injectors and six coils independently. Check out the E11 manual on the Haltech website, and look near the very end of the book where it describes compatable engine configurations.
I'm calling Monday to get an order in. Anyone who wants something would be doing good to let me know before then.
BK
I'm calling Monday to get an order in. Anyone who wants something would be doing good to let me know before then.
BK
Hmmm. Just ran across this website for those that would like to do their own!
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
No endorsement of any kind from me. Saw the website for the first time this evening. I run a Haltech E6K.
This looks interesting if you're electronically/computer inclined and don't want to spend much.
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
No endorsement of any kind from me. Saw the website for the first time this evening. I run a Haltech E6K.
This looks interesting if you're electronically/computer inclined and don't want to spend much.
Dear Folks!,
Allow me to try and clear the "air" on some of these ideas about Motec Systems.
I know that I can be dismissed as 'predujiced' or blowing my own horn, but in fairness, this should be stated.
1)Motec controllers (ecu) prices start at $1600 for the M4 controller. The M48 (very popular with the V-8 crowd) is $2591.00.The "flagship" of the product line, the M800 is $4500. Agreed, that is expensive and probally more ecu than most would require, unless you are considering serious racing endevors.All of these units will run a V-8 no problem, with the added convience of using a vast array of trigger and ignition schemes.
2) For those of you who wish for a "distributorless" direct fire and/or coil on plug ignition, an ignition expander is used in conjunction with the ecu. The expander is $325.00. In those configurations both crank and cam signals are generated by a Ford distributor as in the TFI or also refered to as the "narrow-tooth" trigger.Many other techniques are available as well to suit the individual tastes or requirements.
No Other Controller Offers This Versatility.
No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.
And this is but the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to what you get for the price of the Motec.
3) Any Motec Controller will use a "narrow-band" O2 sensor (Bosch). This is without extra charge. If one wishes to have "wide-band" O2 for high-performance tuning, all Motec controllers come with 6hrs. of "engine run time" to aid in the tuning for your engine.After that the option for "wide-band" O2 is $770.00.
4)Software is,and has been Free.I invite everyone to visit at www.motec.com, and click on the 'software' button and take whatever they wish.This is operational software and will run a motec controller, it is the real stuff guys.
5)Motec Systems U.S.A. and Motec World Wide,
work dilligently to provide the best-bar none support after the sale in our industry.
We are very serious about this. It is a PRIME directive.
Having said that, we will make all resonable attempts to halt the importation of ecu's and related gear by non-offical methods.Every component is serialized and will be very difficult to get operational if it is "bootlegged"!
6)Harnesses can be custom designed and built by us or by one of our specialists around the country. I know of NO $3000 engine harnesses that were produced by us. Although for clarity, Motec has state-of-the-art systems that entail much more than just the engine loom and these "combined"constructed (read:"the whole car")harnesses can and do get into the $3000-$4000 range.These are very, very sophisticated constructions, and are not good comparisons to engine harnesses.
So in review, a M48 with an ignition expander and 8 coils for direct fire and a typical engine harness, will be in the$4600.
range. Note : this is a Fully Sequential control with idividual coil per clyinder ignition.
Thanks for hearing me out, and good luck on all your projects.
gic
Allow me to try and clear the "air" on some of these ideas about Motec Systems.
I know that I can be dismissed as 'predujiced' or blowing my own horn, but in fairness, this should be stated.
1)Motec controllers (ecu) prices start at $1600 for the M4 controller. The M48 (very popular with the V-8 crowd) is $2591.00.The "flagship" of the product line, the M800 is $4500. Agreed, that is expensive and probally more ecu than most would require, unless you are considering serious racing endevors.All of these units will run a V-8 no problem, with the added convience of using a vast array of trigger and ignition schemes.
2) For those of you who wish for a "distributorless" direct fire and/or coil on plug ignition, an ignition expander is used in conjunction with the ecu. The expander is $325.00. In those configurations both crank and cam signals are generated by a Ford distributor as in the TFI or also refered to as the "narrow-tooth" trigger.Many other techniques are available as well to suit the individual tastes or requirements.
No Other Controller Offers This Versatility.
No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.
And this is but the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to what you get for the price of the Motec.
3) Any Motec Controller will use a "narrow-band" O2 sensor (Bosch). This is without extra charge. If one wishes to have "wide-band" O2 for high-performance tuning, all Motec controllers come with 6hrs. of "engine run time" to aid in the tuning for your engine.After that the option for "wide-band" O2 is $770.00.
4)Software is,and has been Free.I invite everyone to visit at www.motec.com, and click on the 'software' button and take whatever they wish.This is operational software and will run a motec controller, it is the real stuff guys.
5)Motec Systems U.S.A. and Motec World Wide,
work dilligently to provide the best-bar none support after the sale in our industry.
We are very serious about this. It is a PRIME directive.
Having said that, we will make all resonable attempts to halt the importation of ecu's and related gear by non-offical methods.Every component is serialized and will be very difficult to get operational if it is "bootlegged"!
6)Harnesses can be custom designed and built by us or by one of our specialists around the country. I know of NO $3000 engine harnesses that were produced by us. Although for clarity, Motec has state-of-the-art systems that entail much more than just the engine loom and these "combined"constructed (read:"the whole car")harnesses can and do get into the $3000-$4000 range.These are very, very sophisticated constructions, and are not good comparisons to engine harnesses.
So in review, a M48 with an ignition expander and 8 coils for direct fire and a typical engine harness, will be in the$4600.
range. Note : this is a Fully Sequential control with idividual coil per clyinder ignition.
Thanks for hearing me out, and good luck on all your projects.
gic
Thank you all for your interest! The basic E11 will sell for $1500. This includes the ECU, software, flying lead harness, inlet temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, and TPS. You'll need the connector kit to finish out your harness, and though I didn't get a figure on how much THAT will be, I'd be willing to bet that it will be in the $70-$80 range (there are a lot of connectors!) This kit does not include the O2 or MAP sensors. These are available seperately for a reasonable price, or you can purchase them locally from most auto parts stores. Contact me by e-mail for more details.
Brian Kennedy
Brian Kennedy
I’ve got a few comments to make about the Motec products. Maybe GIC can share some thoughts on some of these for us. I’m not trying to create a flame war, I’m just curious about a few things that only a Motec dealer/distributor could accurately comment on.
First of all, understand that I think Motec products are GREAT!!!! However, I live in the real world where money doesn’t grow on trees, and it’s important to get the most benefit for dollars spent. This is where (for me, anyway) Motec falls down. I’d like to address each of the points GIC brought up one at a time, starting with a quote and then my question.
From GIC:
1) Motec controllers (ecu) prices start at $1600 for the M4 controller. The M48 (very popular with the V-8 crowd) is $2591.00.The "flagship" of the product line, the M800 is $4500. Agreed, that is expensive and probally more ecu than most would require, unless you are considering serious racing endevors.All of these units will run a V-8 no problem, with the added convience of using a vast array of trigger and ignition schemes.
From BK:
1) I have absolutely no doubt that the Motec ECUs would brilliantly control any engine combination that I’m ever likely to throw at it. Motec has also done a terrific job of offering a very comprehensive array of additional options and accessories, most of which are very cleverly executed, and have a modular “plug-and-play” nature that I’m sure is envied by all programmable ECU makers. Where I have to jump off the Motec bandwagon, however, is when I look at the cost of the ECUs and the options that I’d be most likely to use. I would be interested in hearing/reading some justification for the cost of these things. The typical response that “you have to pay a lot more to get the very best” will not cut it. Programmable Engine Management Systems are becoming more and more commonly used, and there is more and more competition every day from other ECU makers. Premium features that used to be the Motec staple are now found on many of the much more affordable management systems. How will Motec respond to these changes in the ECU market?
From GIC:
2) For those of you who wish for a "distributorless" direct fire and/or coil on plug ignition, an ignition expander is used in conjunction with the ecu. The expander is $325.00. In those configurations both crank and cam signals are generated by a Ford distributor as in the TFI or also refered to as the "narrow-tooth" trigger.Many other techniques are available as well to suit the individual tastes or requirements.
No Other Controller Offers This Versatility.
No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.
And this is but the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to what you get for the price of the Motec.
From BK:
2) I can only speak for myself and the products that I’m familiar with, but I’d like to comment on your statements that “No Other Controller Offers This Versatility” (ignition triggers, I think) and “No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.” Depending on how many cylinders/rotors used on the engine in question, there are several other non-Motec ECUs that offer flexible triggering options, and most any programmable ECU will allow you to use whatever injector you need in order to suit the fueling needs of the engine in question. The obvious exceptions to both of my above statements would be (respectively):
A) Those systems offered as a direct replacement for a particular vehicle’s OEM computer; and
B) The ‘wanna-be programmable’ engine management systems that work by altering the OEM computer’s inputs and outputs in order to manipulate the resulting engine operation to achieve the desired results.
The primary issues with regards to the injector selection is of course whether the injector output drivers are able to drive both low and high impedance injectors, and whether or not they can operate the number of injectors necessary to fuel your engine.
Haltech systems (on the other hand) are perhaps the most flexible of all in terms of what will work as an appropriate trigger. Where it’s true that Motec offers an option to use the Ford TFI distributor with the long/short-pulse home/trigger, most people who want distributorless ignition don't WANT a distributor for anything other than a means to drive their oil pump! Furthermore, most of the people I’ve spoken to argue that the distributor is a bad place to get a trigger signal, citing the ‘slop’ that exists in the cam chain/belt and the inherent inaccuracies that it creates within the ignition system. That means the Motec expander is a $325 option with a built in handicap! This would not be a smart purchase, in my humble opinion.
From GIC:
3) Any Motec Controller will use a "narrow-band" O2 sensor (Bosch). This is without extra charge. If one wishes to have "wide-band" O2 for high-performance tuning, all Motec controllers come with 6hrs. of "engine run time" to aid in the tuning for your engine.After that the option for "wide-band" O2 is $770.00.
From BK:
3) I don’t feel that the ability to use a narrow band O2 sensor is something that a Motec guy would wish to be boastful about. Just about every programmable ECU system offered these days includes this as a standard feature. I do find the Motec ‘Professional Wideband Lamda Meter’ to be an exceptional value and relavance, though I do rather think that for the cost of the Motec systems, the built-in wideband option should be a standard feature, rather than a $770.00 add-on. Also, could you please elaborate on this 6 hours of “engine run time?”
From GIC:
4) Software is,and has been Free.I invite everyone to visit at www.motec.com, and click on the 'software' button and take whatever they wish.This is operational software and will run a motec controller, it is the real stuff guys.
From BK:
4) I don’t think that this is a very fair statement to make. The software that you can see and play around with (and get a fuzzy feeling in your tummy, spurring you to reach for the AmEx card) is free, but you have to pay fees to unlock certain functions. Where it’s not wrong for Motec to handle their upgrades in this fashion, I find it to be a little silly that someone talks about ‘free software.’ For what it’s worth, if you want Haltech software, I’ll give it to you. It’s no big secret, folks! Realize that there is a lot more to a system/company’s merit than whether or not their website offers free downloads for their tuning software. Bandwidth costs money, and every time you download software, somebody has to pay for it. The more a company spends to make it’s software available, the more they’ll charge those of us who actually end up buying the system. They MUST pass on their operating costs to the consumer, as that’s just how running a business works.
From GIC:
5) Motec Systems U.S.A. and Motec World Wide,
work dilligently to provide the best-bar none support after the sale in our industry.
We are very serious about this. It is a PRIME directive.
Having said that, we will make all resonable attempts to halt the importation of ecu's and related gear by non-offical methods.Every component is serialized and will be very difficult to get operational if it is "bootlegged"!
From BK:
5) I’m totally with GIC on this point. Motec does do a great job of supporting its product, and I’m sure that’s where a good portion of the cost of each system comes from. I’ll also stand behind GIC on the issue of grey-market ECU imports. When customers cut domestic retailers and distributors out of the loop, everyone ends up losing. If we’re not able to market these products, then we can’t earn a living. Then people who buy grey-market products come to us expecting support, even though they know they cheated us out of our slice. Ethics and fairness dictates who gets help and who doesn’t, and I think it’s fair for domestic retailers to refuse support to those who bought from and overseas supplier. A little money saved up front can cost you big-time later down the road. Your dealer should help you find solutions to your issues. Don’t expect another dealer to give technical assistance for free if you didn’t give him/her an opportunity to make the sale.
From GIC:
6) Harnesses can be custom designed and built by us or by one of our specialists around the country. I know of NO $3000 engine harnesses that were produced by us. Although for clarity, Motec has state-of-the-art systems that entail much more than just the engine loom and these "combined"constructed (read:"the whole car")harnesses can and do get into the $3000-$4000 range.These are very, very sophisticated constructions, and are not good comparisons to engine harnesses.
From BK:
6) The MIL-SPEC connectors (canon plugs) offered as an option by Motec are seriously nice if you’re building a full-effort racecar. For most of us, it’s huge overkill unless you want to be the ‘Boulevard Pimp’™ and impress your friends. Those connectors are very costly, and are extremely labor intensive when building the finished harness. Time spent assembling the harness, the special tooling required, and the materials themselves all add up to what is hard to call an economical solution. Depending on how much time it takes a technician to build a wiring loom, $3000 might not be so far out of reason. I give credit to Motec for even being willing to provide this level of custom wiring as an option.
From GIC:
So in review, a M48 with an ignition expander and 8 coils for direct fire and a typical engine harness, will be in the$4600.
range. Note : this is a Fully Sequential control with idividual coil per clyinder ignition.
Thanks for hearing me out, and good luck on all your projects.
gic
From BK:
In review, the Motec systems are still very serious money. If you want to do an 8cylinder sequential and distributorless waste-spark ignition (sorry, the E11 can only do 6 cylinders in coil-per-plug configuration at present time) you can buy the E11 kit ($1500), termination kit ($80), and MAP sensor (cost varies by application.) Add four waste-spark coils with ignitors, and you will be money ahead in most cases, rather than buying the more costly Motec offerings. In closing, I think that Motec has some fantastic products. I really just think that they’re cost prohibitive and impractical for most of us who are just building performance vehicles for pleasure/personal use, rather than race cars with sponsorship dollars at stake. Motec certainly has it’s place, but I don’t think it’s under the boot/bonnet of most casual enthusiast vehicles.
Respectfully Yours,
Brian Kennedy
First of all, understand that I think Motec products are GREAT!!!! However, I live in the real world where money doesn’t grow on trees, and it’s important to get the most benefit for dollars spent. This is where (for me, anyway) Motec falls down. I’d like to address each of the points GIC brought up one at a time, starting with a quote and then my question.
From GIC:
1) Motec controllers (ecu) prices start at $1600 for the M4 controller. The M48 (very popular with the V-8 crowd) is $2591.00.The "flagship" of the product line, the M800 is $4500. Agreed, that is expensive and probally more ecu than most would require, unless you are considering serious racing endevors.All of these units will run a V-8 no problem, with the added convience of using a vast array of trigger and ignition schemes.
From BK:
1) I have absolutely no doubt that the Motec ECUs would brilliantly control any engine combination that I’m ever likely to throw at it. Motec has also done a terrific job of offering a very comprehensive array of additional options and accessories, most of which are very cleverly executed, and have a modular “plug-and-play” nature that I’m sure is envied by all programmable ECU makers. Where I have to jump off the Motec bandwagon, however, is when I look at the cost of the ECUs and the options that I’d be most likely to use. I would be interested in hearing/reading some justification for the cost of these things. The typical response that “you have to pay a lot more to get the very best” will not cut it. Programmable Engine Management Systems are becoming more and more commonly used, and there is more and more competition every day from other ECU makers. Premium features that used to be the Motec staple are now found on many of the much more affordable management systems. How will Motec respond to these changes in the ECU market?
From GIC:
2) For those of you who wish for a "distributorless" direct fire and/or coil on plug ignition, an ignition expander is used in conjunction with the ecu. The expander is $325.00. In those configurations both crank and cam signals are generated by a Ford distributor as in the TFI or also refered to as the "narrow-tooth" trigger.Many other techniques are available as well to suit the individual tastes or requirements.
No Other Controller Offers This Versatility.
No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.
And this is but the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to what you get for the price of the Motec.
From BK:
2) I can only speak for myself and the products that I’m familiar with, but I’d like to comment on your statements that “No Other Controller Offers This Versatility” (ignition triggers, I think) and “No Other Controller Offers The Ability To Choose Any Injector Available To Match Flow Requirements For Fueling.” Depending on how many cylinders/rotors used on the engine in question, there are several other non-Motec ECUs that offer flexible triggering options, and most any programmable ECU will allow you to use whatever injector you need in order to suit the fueling needs of the engine in question. The obvious exceptions to both of my above statements would be (respectively):
A) Those systems offered as a direct replacement for a particular vehicle’s OEM computer; and
B) The ‘wanna-be programmable’ engine management systems that work by altering the OEM computer’s inputs and outputs in order to manipulate the resulting engine operation to achieve the desired results.
The primary issues with regards to the injector selection is of course whether the injector output drivers are able to drive both low and high impedance injectors, and whether or not they can operate the number of injectors necessary to fuel your engine.
Haltech systems (on the other hand) are perhaps the most flexible of all in terms of what will work as an appropriate trigger. Where it’s true that Motec offers an option to use the Ford TFI distributor with the long/short-pulse home/trigger, most people who want distributorless ignition don't WANT a distributor for anything other than a means to drive their oil pump! Furthermore, most of the people I’ve spoken to argue that the distributor is a bad place to get a trigger signal, citing the ‘slop’ that exists in the cam chain/belt and the inherent inaccuracies that it creates within the ignition system. That means the Motec expander is a $325 option with a built in handicap! This would not be a smart purchase, in my humble opinion.
From GIC:
3) Any Motec Controller will use a "narrow-band" O2 sensor (Bosch). This is without extra charge. If one wishes to have "wide-band" O2 for high-performance tuning, all Motec controllers come with 6hrs. of "engine run time" to aid in the tuning for your engine.After that the option for "wide-band" O2 is $770.00.
From BK:
3) I don’t feel that the ability to use a narrow band O2 sensor is something that a Motec guy would wish to be boastful about. Just about every programmable ECU system offered these days includes this as a standard feature. I do find the Motec ‘Professional Wideband Lamda Meter’ to be an exceptional value and relavance, though I do rather think that for the cost of the Motec systems, the built-in wideband option should be a standard feature, rather than a $770.00 add-on. Also, could you please elaborate on this 6 hours of “engine run time?”
From GIC:
4) Software is,and has been Free.I invite everyone to visit at www.motec.com, and click on the 'software' button and take whatever they wish.This is operational software and will run a motec controller, it is the real stuff guys.
From BK:
4) I don’t think that this is a very fair statement to make. The software that you can see and play around with (and get a fuzzy feeling in your tummy, spurring you to reach for the AmEx card) is free, but you have to pay fees to unlock certain functions. Where it’s not wrong for Motec to handle their upgrades in this fashion, I find it to be a little silly that someone talks about ‘free software.’ For what it’s worth, if you want Haltech software, I’ll give it to you. It’s no big secret, folks! Realize that there is a lot more to a system/company’s merit than whether or not their website offers free downloads for their tuning software. Bandwidth costs money, and every time you download software, somebody has to pay for it. The more a company spends to make it’s software available, the more they’ll charge those of us who actually end up buying the system. They MUST pass on their operating costs to the consumer, as that’s just how running a business works.
From GIC:
5) Motec Systems U.S.A. and Motec World Wide,
work dilligently to provide the best-bar none support after the sale in our industry.
We are very serious about this. It is a PRIME directive.
Having said that, we will make all resonable attempts to halt the importation of ecu's and related gear by non-offical methods.Every component is serialized and will be very difficult to get operational if it is "bootlegged"!
From BK:
5) I’m totally with GIC on this point. Motec does do a great job of supporting its product, and I’m sure that’s where a good portion of the cost of each system comes from. I’ll also stand behind GIC on the issue of grey-market ECU imports. When customers cut domestic retailers and distributors out of the loop, everyone ends up losing. If we’re not able to market these products, then we can’t earn a living. Then people who buy grey-market products come to us expecting support, even though they know they cheated us out of our slice. Ethics and fairness dictates who gets help and who doesn’t, and I think it’s fair for domestic retailers to refuse support to those who bought from and overseas supplier. A little money saved up front can cost you big-time later down the road. Your dealer should help you find solutions to your issues. Don’t expect another dealer to give technical assistance for free if you didn’t give him/her an opportunity to make the sale.
From GIC:
6) Harnesses can be custom designed and built by us or by one of our specialists around the country. I know of NO $3000 engine harnesses that were produced by us. Although for clarity, Motec has state-of-the-art systems that entail much more than just the engine loom and these "combined"constructed (read:"the whole car")harnesses can and do get into the $3000-$4000 range.These are very, very sophisticated constructions, and are not good comparisons to engine harnesses.
From BK:
6) The MIL-SPEC connectors (canon plugs) offered as an option by Motec are seriously nice if you’re building a full-effort racecar. For most of us, it’s huge overkill unless you want to be the ‘Boulevard Pimp’™ and impress your friends. Those connectors are very costly, and are extremely labor intensive when building the finished harness. Time spent assembling the harness, the special tooling required, and the materials themselves all add up to what is hard to call an economical solution. Depending on how much time it takes a technician to build a wiring loom, $3000 might not be so far out of reason. I give credit to Motec for even being willing to provide this level of custom wiring as an option.
From GIC:
So in review, a M48 with an ignition expander and 8 coils for direct fire and a typical engine harness, will be in the$4600.
range. Note : this is a Fully Sequential control with idividual coil per clyinder ignition.
Thanks for hearing me out, and good luck on all your projects.
gic
From BK:
In review, the Motec systems are still very serious money. If you want to do an 8cylinder sequential and distributorless waste-spark ignition (sorry, the E11 can only do 6 cylinders in coil-per-plug configuration at present time) you can buy the E11 kit ($1500), termination kit ($80), and MAP sensor (cost varies by application.) Add four waste-spark coils with ignitors, and you will be money ahead in most cases, rather than buying the more costly Motec offerings. In closing, I think that Motec has some fantastic products. I really just think that they’re cost prohibitive and impractical for most of us who are just building performance vehicles for pleasure/personal use, rather than race cars with sponsorship dollars at stake. Motec certainly has it’s place, but I don’t think it’s under the boot/bonnet of most casual enthusiast vehicles.
Respectfully Yours,
Brian Kennedy
Brian, thanks for posting the info about the Motec. The Electromotive TEC3 system uses the crank trigger, wasted spark coil packs and is full sequential on the injectors. I sell the complete TEC3 for the Ford small block with everything but spark plug wires for $2650. It has 4 GPO's(general purpose outputs), 4 GPI's, 2 MB of on board data logging(can datalog 27 channels at once), onfly programing, coil packs, O2 sensor, dual rev limiters, MAT sensor, MAP sensor, coolant sensor, harnesses, crank trigger wheel, mag pick up, software and ECU. You can download the full software here to see all the features.
Thanks for the insights..
Again I see that I should clarify some points
further.
1)BK said,(sic)"...where I have(?) to jump off the Motec bandwagon,however,is when I look at the cost of the ECU's and the options that I'd be most likely to use.I would be interested in hearing/reading some justification for the cost of these things." OK then, lets define this better if I can. When Motec started as a corporation, a "model" of business (plan) was drawn up to insure survival for many years.This was not ,as you might think, solely built on profit alone.Motec took a long look at the industry as a whole and we saw that in reality, "the aftermarket/enthusiast programmable engine control" is NOT a component business, but rather a SERVICE business with a ECU attached. Furthermore,if Motec or anyone else in this business does not keep improving their software and component packages, develope on-going technical applications as the OEM's and others develope their's; you're LOST. The development of your product is instead left to the end user, (your customer) without the benefit of on-going technical support or software.And yes, you can sell units,kits,whatever, for a much lower price, because you don't have a "middle man", who in this case should be the point man who can make the necessary decisions on what is correct for the application.Otherwise, you have a guy who has a sizable investment in a say, GT40, and spends his time earning or maintaining his income doing Dental, medical, Managerial, CEO, left to make decisions on how well his project runs or worse yet, why it doesn't. Not one day goes by when I am not engaged on the phone to someone,somewhere,doing damage control on somebody's other system because the poor guy is frustrated beyond reason. I am NOT implying that anyone in this forum is part and parcel to this situation, but I am trying to make clear, that if you are "comparing" on price alone, you stand to lose because the details remain cloudy. Genius and the devil both are in the details.
2) On the ignition expander details, I must have confused things worse when I combined the Ford TFI distributor in the same paragraph.I apologise. The facts are, the ignition expander allows the use of up to 8 coils, either wasted or individual spark. All that is required by the controller is a cam signal,(once per cycle)and a crank signal(evenly spaced teeth divisable into 360). The Ford TFI distributor is one of about 60 software selectable solutions for engine triggering. I honestly can stand corrected,but BK, I don't believe Haltech can do that many.
Further, on the subject of injector current control,I should be more accurate and to-the-point here as well. Simply saying that a ECU can drive "high/low" impedance injectors is not enough. Software selected CURRENT control based on the design characteristics of the injector combined with user defined software selected battery voltage definitions (comps)is what Motec offers as standard;not a section selection of "high or low". Again I can stand corrected, but my knowledge is that only a few manufacturers including Motec Systems can do this.I have never seen these items in detail I described in any of the software from Haltech, Electromotive,DFI,Accel, and so on.
3) In reference to the statement I made about 6 hrs. of engine run time for wide band lambda and logging, allow me to clarify.
When a Motec controller is "put to life" as a first time, new box, application, the feature list for wide band lambda and data logging remain 'ON' and active for any RPM > 250 for six hours.If the engine is stopped anytime during this period, the "timer" stops,and resumes again after 250 rpm is achieved.This is done to aid,without increasing cost to the application,in the setup and tuning process.Frankly, if it takes longer than this to do, that person should not, in my opinion, be doing this type of work.
4)Finally,(you got to be tired of me by now!)in the case of "free software", it is and has always been FREE.It is fully operational when connected to the corresponding Motec device.The UPGRADES are firmware via code to the units themselves per the serial number(s) on the box.This can be done over the phone.
In closing I want to thank BK and everyone who took the time to read me and respond. Your inputs are valued, as I /we are determined to deliver the best and most comprehensive equipment possible.
"it only takes a dozen or so years to become an 'overnight' success;and one soft wind on a house of cards to bring it down."
Regards,
gic
Again I see that I should clarify some points
further.
1)BK said,(sic)"...where I have(?) to jump off the Motec bandwagon,however,is when I look at the cost of the ECU's and the options that I'd be most likely to use.I would be interested in hearing/reading some justification for the cost of these things." OK then, lets define this better if I can. When Motec started as a corporation, a "model" of business (plan) was drawn up to insure survival for many years.This was not ,as you might think, solely built on profit alone.Motec took a long look at the industry as a whole and we saw that in reality, "the aftermarket/enthusiast programmable engine control" is NOT a component business, but rather a SERVICE business with a ECU attached. Furthermore,if Motec or anyone else in this business does not keep improving their software and component packages, develope on-going technical applications as the OEM's and others develope their's; you're LOST. The development of your product is instead left to the end user, (your customer) without the benefit of on-going technical support or software.And yes, you can sell units,kits,whatever, for a much lower price, because you don't have a "middle man", who in this case should be the point man who can make the necessary decisions on what is correct for the application.Otherwise, you have a guy who has a sizable investment in a say, GT40, and spends his time earning or maintaining his income doing Dental, medical, Managerial, CEO, left to make decisions on how well his project runs or worse yet, why it doesn't. Not one day goes by when I am not engaged on the phone to someone,somewhere,doing damage control on somebody's other system because the poor guy is frustrated beyond reason. I am NOT implying that anyone in this forum is part and parcel to this situation, but I am trying to make clear, that if you are "comparing" on price alone, you stand to lose because the details remain cloudy. Genius and the devil both are in the details.
2) On the ignition expander details, I must have confused things worse when I combined the Ford TFI distributor in the same paragraph.I apologise. The facts are, the ignition expander allows the use of up to 8 coils, either wasted or individual spark. All that is required by the controller is a cam signal,(once per cycle)and a crank signal(evenly spaced teeth divisable into 360). The Ford TFI distributor is one of about 60 software selectable solutions for engine triggering. I honestly can stand corrected,but BK, I don't believe Haltech can do that many.
Further, on the subject of injector current control,I should be more accurate and to-the-point here as well. Simply saying that a ECU can drive "high/low" impedance injectors is not enough. Software selected CURRENT control based on the design characteristics of the injector combined with user defined software selected battery voltage definitions (comps)is what Motec offers as standard;not a section selection of "high or low". Again I can stand corrected, but my knowledge is that only a few manufacturers including Motec Systems can do this.I have never seen these items in detail I described in any of the software from Haltech, Electromotive,DFI,Accel, and so on.
3) In reference to the statement I made about 6 hrs. of engine run time for wide band lambda and logging, allow me to clarify.
When a Motec controller is "put to life" as a first time, new box, application, the feature list for wide band lambda and data logging remain 'ON' and active for any RPM > 250 for six hours.If the engine is stopped anytime during this period, the "timer" stops,and resumes again after 250 rpm is achieved.This is done to aid,without increasing cost to the application,in the setup and tuning process.Frankly, if it takes longer than this to do, that person should not, in my opinion, be doing this type of work.
4)Finally,(you got to be tired of me by now!)in the case of "free software", it is and has always been FREE.It is fully operational when connected to the corresponding Motec device.The UPGRADES are firmware via code to the units themselves per the serial number(s) on the box.This can be done over the phone.
In closing I want to thank BK and everyone who took the time to read me and respond. Your inputs are valued, as I /we are determined to deliver the best and most comprehensive equipment possible.
"it only takes a dozen or so years to become an 'overnight' success;and one soft wind on a house of cards to bring it down."
Regards,
gic
Big thanks to GIC for responding to my questions. It's good that we have this forum as a place to discuss the relative merits of various different engine control solutions.
I would have to say that Motec is easily one of the leaders in the ECU field, and for what their systems cost, they very well SHOULD be. With that said, I hope to at some point in the future become a Motec retailer/installer. However, at this juncture, I'm still partial to the more value oriented systems such as the Haltech, Autronic, Accel DFI, and FAST computers.
Admittedly, each of these DOES have it's limitations. Having established that as fact, selection of a suitable ECU solution for your project should not merely be about which system offeres the most bells and whistles. Ask yourself very seriously just exactly what you need your engine computer to do. Don't struggle with a system that barely covers your requirements. You'll end up regretting spending money on the wrong machine, and will end up buying something else instead. But on the other hand, there is such thing as buying more than you need. You would never put a Powerstroke DITD engine in a Mazda B2000 pickup, would you? After all, you could never use the power that engine will provide, and the time and money you spent on the brawny engine would be largely wasted.
Do your homework and get your questions answered before you dole out money for your ECU. Don't accept hype and price as substitues for value and performance.
BK
I would have to say that Motec is easily one of the leaders in the ECU field, and for what their systems cost, they very well SHOULD be. With that said, I hope to at some point in the future become a Motec retailer/installer. However, at this juncture, I'm still partial to the more value oriented systems such as the Haltech, Autronic, Accel DFI, and FAST computers.
Admittedly, each of these DOES have it's limitations. Having established that as fact, selection of a suitable ECU solution for your project should not merely be about which system offeres the most bells and whistles. Ask yourself very seriously just exactly what you need your engine computer to do. Don't struggle with a system that barely covers your requirements. You'll end up regretting spending money on the wrong machine, and will end up buying something else instead. But on the other hand, there is such thing as buying more than you need. You would never put a Powerstroke DITD engine in a Mazda B2000 pickup, would you? After all, you could never use the power that engine will provide, and the time and money you spent on the brawny engine would be largely wasted.
Do your homework and get your questions answered before you dole out money for your ECU. Don't accept hype and price as substitues for value and performance.
BK
Interesting thread. It can probably be summed up by saying that any of the ECU's discussed can and do run engines of many different configurations. The ECU's are like cars themselves. All perform the same basic functions. Some cost more than others because of enhanced functions, more engineering costs, more bells and whistles, and of course, name. A BMW costs more than a Chevy. How much of that additional cost is name and how much advanced engineering or features?
In my case, I had a real hard time justifying 2+ x the cost of a Haltech to buy a Motec. More bells and whistles on the Motec? Not really for my intended purpose. The Haltech offered injector control, ignition control, direct fired/crank triggered ignition, closed loop O2, etc. My car will spend 99+% of it's life on the street. Every bit of HP from the engine isn't a requirement. 410 is enough for a daily driver. I've had good service and luck with Haltech over the years. They've been around a while. I get excellent support from the vendor that sells them (he sells Motec too). He provided a start up map and services on the dyno to fine tune the maps..took about 2 hours.
I don't have a sponser. I pay the bills from my pocket. Would I like to have a Motec? Sure!! But realistically, I couldn't justify the additional cost for the same or similar features that Haltech offered. A BMW and a Chevy? Maybe, but the Chevy gets me where I need to go and it didn't cost near as much.
[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: DaveWharran ]
In my case, I had a real hard time justifying 2+ x the cost of a Haltech to buy a Motec. More bells and whistles on the Motec? Not really for my intended purpose. The Haltech offered injector control, ignition control, direct fired/crank triggered ignition, closed loop O2, etc. My car will spend 99+% of it's life on the street. Every bit of HP from the engine isn't a requirement. 410 is enough for a daily driver. I've had good service and luck with Haltech over the years. They've been around a while. I get excellent support from the vendor that sells them (he sells Motec too). He provided a start up map and services on the dyno to fine tune the maps..took about 2 hours.
I don't have a sponser. I pay the bills from my pocket. Would I like to have a Motec? Sure!! But realistically, I couldn't justify the additional cost for the same or similar features that Haltech offered. A BMW and a Chevy? Maybe, but the Chevy gets me where I need to go and it didn't cost near as much.
[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: DaveWharran ]
I have the Motec M800 in my GT40. It works well. A less expensive unit that had the wide band lambdas for free would be better. This is something that should be included in all ECU's. It's just good common sense because the consumer is going to be able to tune his engine more easily and do it again after he decides to make some mechanical changes to the engine.
Motec sounds like IBM 20yrs ago on the
personal computer. We all know the out come of that deal. My take on this is that Motec
competitors will become more popular to consumer demands for a product within their price range and one that gives good value for the money. I see no way that Motec can continue with there current prices for long. As the compitition increases more companies are going to give more for the dollar to get more sales. Just like PC's today, Dell, Gateway, and others all compete and the prices are better and the quality is good. The consumers and the manufacturers all win. To this day IBM is still playing catch up in the PC market. That's because of their poor judgement of the consumers and the market. Just my two
cents worth but only time will tell.
The profit margin on an M800 is exorbatant and obscene. Motec could lower the price by
a $1000 on the M800 and they would still make a tidy sum. That doesn't include the cost for the codes to unlock all the other goodies one may want. In all fairness though Motec is the leading choice in High tech motorsports. They will most likely continue to be as IBM is still the leader in mainframe and Mid-range computers today.
I admit that the M800 goes way beyond my needs. I wish I had done my home work. I did not need all those bells and whistles.
I'll never buy the codes to unlock them.
Brain makes a wise statement, don't buy more than you will need and do your homework. Take it from someone who didn't.
Using an M800 in my GT40 is like using a Mainframe computer to surf the net and for nothing else.
Hersh
Motec sounds like IBM 20yrs ago on the
personal computer. We all know the out come of that deal. My take on this is that Motec
competitors will become more popular to consumer demands for a product within their price range and one that gives good value for the money. I see no way that Motec can continue with there current prices for long. As the compitition increases more companies are going to give more for the dollar to get more sales. Just like PC's today, Dell, Gateway, and others all compete and the prices are better and the quality is good. The consumers and the manufacturers all win. To this day IBM is still playing catch up in the PC market. That's because of their poor judgement of the consumers and the market. Just my two
cents worth but only time will tell.
The profit margin on an M800 is exorbatant and obscene. Motec could lower the price by
a $1000 on the M800 and they would still make a tidy sum. That doesn't include the cost for the codes to unlock all the other goodies one may want. In all fairness though Motec is the leading choice in High tech motorsports. They will most likely continue to be as IBM is still the leader in mainframe and Mid-range computers today.
I admit that the M800 goes way beyond my needs. I wish I had done my home work. I did not need all those bells and whistles.
I'll never buy the codes to unlock them.
Brain makes a wise statement, don't buy more than you will need and do your homework. Take it from someone who didn't.
Using an M800 in my GT40 is like using a Mainframe computer to surf the net and for nothing else.
Hersh
Hershal, I thought you had used the Wolf system in your car?
BTW The Electromotive TEC3 will run full time closed loop with a wide band O2. It has a table just like the fuel and ignition that you just specify the A/F ratio, for thousands less than the Motec. And it has battery voltage correction and selectable high/low impedence injector drivers.
BTW The Electromotive TEC3 will run full time closed loop with a wide band O2. It has a table just like the fuel and ignition that you just specify the A/F ratio, for thousands less than the Motec. And it has battery voltage correction and selectable high/low impedence injector drivers.
Dear Folks,
Thanks for the great discussions and input.
I can make no promises, but I will use these threads in our corporate meeting and my 2003 industry compilation report(s). Having said that, we have lowered our prices in the past year on our M4 controller and all the options most requested for the M4 and M48's. Our PLM (Professional Lambda Meter) has been cross compared and analyzed by several High-End corporate users using the Horiba Metaxa (Uego)and has the same accuracy (in useful range)while costing thousands$ less. But enough said, I not going to 'advertise' here.
If anyone is in Indianapolis during December 5th to 7th, visit us (and myself) at the PRI trade show at the RCA dome at booth 225.Or, if you find yourself in Huntington Beach Ca. come on by. I will give you the tour of the place. Or if you are near Charlotte N.C. give our office in Mooresville a call.
Best Regards,
gic
ps. I know the case study of IBM....we're not them.
Thanks for the great discussions and input.
I can make no promises, but I will use these threads in our corporate meeting and my 2003 industry compilation report(s). Having said that, we have lowered our prices in the past year on our M4 controller and all the options most requested for the M4 and M48's. Our PLM (Professional Lambda Meter) has been cross compared and analyzed by several High-End corporate users using the Horiba Metaxa (Uego)and has the same accuracy (in useful range)while costing thousands$ less. But enough said, I not going to 'advertise' here.
If anyone is in Indianapolis during December 5th to 7th, visit us (and myself) at the PRI trade show at the RCA dome at booth 225.Or, if you find yourself in Huntington Beach Ca. come on by. I will give you the tour of the place. Or if you are near Charlotte N.C. give our office in Mooresville a call.
Best Regards,
gic
ps. I know the case study of IBM....we're not them.
I discussed the wide band at SEMA with Electromotive. They are going to have their own universal wide band in 2 weeks with a seperate display. Currently the TEC3 can use any of the wide band sensor out there now if you know what the output voltage to A/F ratio is. The parameters for the O2 sensor can be specified in the software.
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