Best ECU available in the US

That term "wideband compatable" is pretty misleading when people are comparing systems. Most modern fuel computers will allow you to define the O2 sensor parameters, even including the OUTPUT from wideband A/F Meters. Notice I said METER, and not the sensor. Wideband sensor output is completely useless unless you have the appropriate controller/interface unit. Sure, the BOSCH LSU wideband sensors can be bought for approximately $200, but they're no better than an OEM style BOSCH O2 sensor unless you've got the controller for it. Same goes for the NTK UEGO sensor. These are a little more, but are COMPLETELY useless unless you have the controller. Figure on spending at least$1000 for a decent wideband AFM with an analog output that can be interfaced with your ECU. I have an M&W Ignitions UEGO, and LOVE IT! I also have used and like the Autronics Model "A" and "B" widebands, and I think the Motec wideband is a great product as well.

But make no mistake, the handfull of ECU makers who offer the true wideband O2 option will make you pay for it, and it's really no cheaper than if you were to buy a portable wideband AFM that you can move from car to car. The Motec wideband option is no-doubt terrific, as is FAST (SpeedPro) and Accel-DFI. BUT IT COSTS MONEY, folks!!!! You're not going to get something without paying for it, right GIC? Mr. Presley? I'm sure we'll all agree on that point. . .

Brian Kennedy

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Yes Wayne, that's true. Wolf sent me their newest version 4.0 and it was basically a Beta unit. It had way to many issues to get over in order for it to be operable for my car. I'm sure the Wolf system is a good unit. But the new version was not quite ready. If I had the knowledge then that I have now I'm sure I would have taken a different route.

Hersh

 

From Electromotive's docs I get that their O2 sensor covers 13.5 to 16 A/F ratios. While M&W's meter covers 10 to 20:1. Maybe Electromotive's new box will do this range? It doesn't look like the TEC3 handles that range though. Not having the experience yet I don't know how close a canned base map will get you to the range presently covered by their O2 sensor. Comments? Brian? Wayne? GIC?

 

Anyone who tries to sell you a line to the effect that their system will accurately read an Air/Fuel ratio ANYWHERE beyond stoichometric is full of crap! OEM style O2 sensors are essentially a switching element, with a median output that changes right where the mixture goes from lean to rich or vice-versa. To the best of my knowlege, Electromotive DOES NOT have wideband capabilities of any sort, other than being able to use an analog output from an external wideband AFM to trim fuel to desired values at predefined engine speeds and load points.

In MY opinion, it's foolish to use a wideband AFM for anythign besides mapping. Using it as a permanent means of feedback opens you up for all sorts of problems. What do you suppose happens if the meter malfunctions and the fuel computer uses the erroneous AFM feedback, causing the fuel maps to become corrupted? Same thing would happen if you have an injector or spark plug malfunction. The AFM will do it's job, and the fuel computer will try to do it's job. The problem is, you'll be driving merrily down the road, and your engine will be self-destructing. Catch my drift here?

The OEM style O2 sensor IS a great thing, but it's usefullness is limited to small-value fuel trim at part throttle cruise/light load power settings. Don't make the mistake of thinking you can properly tune anything with the OEM style O2 sensor. There is a pretty good selection of good wideband AFMs out there, but you'll get what you pay for.

And sorry if I sound like I'm Electromotive bashing. I have the Electromotive systems available for sale, but was turned off of them a few years ago when I initially became interested in programmable engine control. The salesperson said that the system would do a lot of things I learned later to be false, and the value just wasn't (and still isn't) there, in my opinion. Your mileage may vary, but I still maintain that your buying decision should be based on value and not hype.

Sorry, rant mode off. . .

Brian Kennedy

 

Allow me to eleborate somewhat. . .

The wideband AFM is usefull in deveoping fuel maps for all engine loads between part-throttle and WOT. There are ECUs that will 'self-tune' to a degree, and I think that's great! HOWEVER, this feature should NOT be turned on and left to run forever because of the scenario I mentioned in my prior post. The wideband AFM output is only reliable when the injectors and ignition system are working properly, and there are NO misfires! Burn a spark plug wire or have an injector begin to stick, and you can consider that wideband AFM useless.

There's a big difference between using an OEM O2 sensor to trim cruise fuel values and a wideband to 'self tune' full power values. The base values should be developed by a human tuner using common sense and experience. The O2 sensor should never be used to trim more than a few percent plus or minus the base map fuel value for a given speed/load point. Read it in ANY of the ECU installation/owner's manuals. . . . O2 SENSOR TRIM IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR PROPER MAPPING. This includes ignition as well, and since I am not aware of a self-tuning ignition computer, I'd say the self-tuning fuel computer function is largely a mis-nomer, as ignition tuning has a large effect on measured A/F ratio numbers as well.

Brian Kennedy

 

[40 Bud]

I have been thinking about building a 331cu. in.with aluminum heads and have been wondering what to do for a fuel system. After seeing this thread I have decided that Hershal has the right idea. That Edelbrock system sure sounds less complicated and less expensive. Not to mention you seem to lose nothing from the performance.

 

[Ron Earp]

And a set of webers or a 4 barrel don't look bad either. I'm with you, after reading this thread I'm keeping the webers I have. Might get it running first with a 4 barrel for ease and then switch it later.

Ron

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Still after all that's been said here I give a big Thumbs up to Brian, GIC and all the other vendors or ECU people. We learn alot from these folks and I want them to know I definetly appreciate their efforts to explain these complicated systems.
I don't want anyone to think that I'm against any of these systems. My opinion is that of a person that's learning through experience. My Edelbrock systems was a piece a cake. It's still going strong after 8 yrs. The Motec is the best but I bought the Mercedes when a Chevy would have been enough.

Hersh

 

[Robert Logan]

To all,

I almost feel that Roaring Forties are to blame with the introduction of the INJECTION in general and the MoTeC in specific terms.

The reason that my company went down the injection path and eventually the MoTeC path is that here in Australia all new cars must have injection and their engines must comply with the emmisions standards. I basically had no option !!!!!

My first GT40 had a 650 double pumper Holley and this was just great. I am building a monocoque and she will have Webbers. I agree with Hershal in the point of using a cannon when a peashooter would do. In full support for MoTeC, they produce outstanding products that are truely WORLD class, they use first class parts such as all their sensors and as the race industry has proven, the MoTeC system is highly reliable. Yes it has all the "bells and whissles" but we have carfully selected the options that we NEED and only use them and have reduced the cost accordingly. The M48 will do the job just as well and should be considered as an option for all GT40's.

In support for their pricing policy, they have huge overheads especially with regards to programmers and there would be many man years of time invested in the 800 series EMS. You get what you pay for and I believe that the MoTeC represents (in Australia) good value for money.

Unfortunately I am unable to sell MoTeC products to anyone other than one of my Roaring Forties customers and if I was than the back up that all of our cars recieve from MoTeC USA would cease.

Best wishes to you all,

Robert

 

Brian, Can you list the best price scenerio using the Haltech E11. Put together a complete system as offered by Edelbrock to show a bottom line comparison. As close to apples to apples as you can get. Maybe the Haltech has some bells and whistles that the edelbrock doesnt have. I guess that would be a plus to go for the Haltech. But being that 2400 is what someone is hoping to spend.. what can you put together. Please list this in your next post. It would be greatly appreciated. Who knows.. if something comes close, your solution is what people may opt for. If you cant do it then let us know..
Thank you.
Daniel

 

Gotten a little off topic into EFI. But since I asked the original question I'll interject. I wanted a Weber looking set up without the pains that usually go with carburetor equipped vehicles. I figured 8 stacks in the back window would be perfect and programmable performance would be desired. I'm not afraid of a bit of a learning curve and will get my desired affect. The 8 stack Hilborn should arrive this week just in time for trial fitting of all the things in the engine compartment. I plan on getting the ECU soon and will give a report once I get it all ironed out. My target is to have the car road ready by spring.

My thanks to all who have contributed. It's been a learning experience all around. Further duscussion is welcomed.

BTW, leafing through dyno liturature I see a wide band O2 sensor with controller for $1595. Just a data point for those pricing them.

 

I'll see what I can come up with as far as some hypothetical price comparisons are concerned. But before I do so, I'd like to point out a few differences between the Edelbrock-type offerings and the less 'all inclusive' offerings by other makers.

Edelbrock has made a great name for itself over the years by offering very well matched component combinations for street performance enthusiasts and hobby racers. It's tough to go wrong while putting together a project vehicle when the Edelbrock R&D department has done the hard work for you, figuring out what works and what doesn't.

However, I feel that in a lot of ways, Edelbrock makes a lot of compromises that may NOT be acceptable to folks who would consider making the move to a programmable engine management system. Though I have no hands-on experience with the Edelbrock system, I rather suspect that it's probably NOT what one would call cutting edge. Rather, I'd bet that it's a design that offers the majority of the most widely sought features and capabilities, all rolled together in a nice, tidy, easy to install package that will save a lot of folks a lot of grief and get them on the road that much faster.

Below are some problems I see with Edelbrock's EFI system. Understand that I’m going off of what I’ve found on the Edelbrock website and other information I’ve found on the web. Also understand that I’m not trying to bash the system, but rather point it out for what it is and is not. Let’s begin.

First of all, the MEFI system marketed by Edelbrock is in no way, shape, or form a contender in a class that we’ll call the Standalone ECU Market. Compared to other systems with the fewest, most basic features, the Edelbrock system is a bit of a letdown.

Let’s look at some of the positive points before I drag up the negatives. From the looks of things, you get a box full of stuff that Edelbrock says you need, and thus have to use. That’s fine and dandy if you haven’t already been shopping and collecting parts for your EFI project. Edelbrock uses a nice air-valve, fuel rails, and probably a very nice intake manifold. The fuel pump is probably adequate, and the wiring harness comes completely terminated and is compatible with factory sensors. This kit also includes a nice MSD distributor and a hand-held pendant to program the system to individual liking. You don’t have a laptop compute? No problem!

But what if you’ve already got an intake manifold and throttle bodies, fuel system, etc? What if you’re building a real knuckle-dragger, and those injectors included in their kit aren’t big enough? What if you need datalogging? What if you want to run forced induction? What if you want distributorless spark?

The Edelbrock MEFI kit, as well packaged and convenient as it is, seems to me to be a “would be,” and not a real standalone system. It’s a batch-fire only system where you MUST use their included distributor as a trigger, thus preventing use of distributorless spark ignition systems. The MAP sensor and calibration software does NOT permit tuning for above ambient manifold pressure conditions (bye-bye blowers and turbos.) From what I can see, there are no auxiliary inputs or outputs, nor are there any additional functions other than providing fuel and spark management. PERIOD. Furthermore, I doubt that many tuners/dyno operators are going to sing your praises regarding that little pendant handheld programmer gizmo. I hate to say it, but that thing’s a real POS.

Although I’m not a huge fan of Holley products, I’d have to say that I’d prefer the new Holley Commander 950 EFI systems. Even though it’s still not what I consider to be a real engine management system, it at least allows you several trigger options, as well as optional MAP sensors permitting power-adder usage.

So before I spend a lot of time arguing the Edelbrock Vs. Haltech (or ECU of your choice) dilemma, allow me to ask exactly what the point would be? To me, the Edelbrock system is like buying a mountain bike with training wheels that you can never take off. Sure, it looks like other mountain bikes in a lot of ways, but those permanent training wheels will be a permanent hindrance. No matter what kind of knobby tires and glow in the dark handle grips you put on it, those training wheels will always keep you from being one of the ‘big-boys.’

In closing, the Edelbrock system might be the easy solution, and a couple of you seem to be quite pleased with it. That’s great! Still, all buyers should exercise due-diligence before opening their wallets for ANY system. You just have to decide what you want, what sum of money you want to spend, and how much you’re willing to learn in order to make it happen.

Brian Kennedy

 

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: DanielD ]

 

[Mike Dozier]

Hey Hersh...

Your Cobra sounds darned stout!
What engine combo/trans does it run?

I'm curious how fast someone can go with
the "cheap" Edelbrock EFI.

MikeD

 

[Guest]

Brian,

11:91 at 124 MPH in the 1/4 mile and 21 MPG with a small block doesn't sound like training wheels to me. This is the bottom line end result, surely within 5 percent(or less) of a Haltech EFI setup. The only real difference would be looks and price. The Haltech would seem to be less "bolt on" thereby requiring more technical support. This includes answering questions. The questions I've posted to this thread still go unanswered, surely a consideration when deciding where to spend the big bucks....

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Mike,
I had weber IDF's on the Cobra for years then when I went to Arizona I had to go through emmisions and the Webers didn't cut it. I looked into the Edelbrock about eight or nine years ago. I liked the idea of getting everything in one package to convert from carbs to EFI. So I bought it and I have been happy ever since.
My Cobra is not your everyday variety for sure. It has a chevy engine with a T-56 Borg warner 6spd trans. The frame is round tube set up for a 1988 vette rear and front suspension components. Final drive is a 3:73
gear. The engine is a Clone of a Smokey Yunik small block that was built in the mid 1970's. It is a 350 block four bolt mains, bored 0.30 over with a 327 large journal forged crank. The heads give me a 10:1 compression and they are iron not alumimium. They were specially prepared with the 2.02 valves, double springs and roller rockers. They were bench flowed and modified where needed. It has a custom grind solid lifter cam. It's been Line bored, blueprinted and all the other things that make it reliable and fast. After 14yrs its been nothing but a pleasure to drive.

Hersh

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi all,
Interesting thread this. Roy and I used an Accel DFI system (batch fired in pairs) with Kinsler throttle bodies as our first foray into EFI. This worked quite well and almost instantly gave an improvement in both cold starting and idle to part throttle operation with a moderately wild cam that had been a 'pig' previously on several 4-barrel setups. We used this system for several seasons and included a remotely mounted distributor for ignition with MSD coil drive. (see pic below)

The remote dizzy worked well most of the time but was not too happy in the wet as it tended to get too wet!

Hence, the move to the Motec M48 8 coil setup. Once again this has transformed the car and offers many additional benefits, not cheap I agree but well worth it in my opinion.

The only slight problem is adjustment of the chokes to attain a sensible tickover but once set, they remain ok most of the time.

Another consideration is the actual throttle linkage, with a multiple barrel/stack system, the motion really needs to be logarithmic with a slow start whereby half pedal movement gives only a few degrees of choke movement. A linear pedal gives a somewhat 'loony' feel to the car.

I have developed a prototype fly-by-wire throttle that uses a high speed ball-raced servo for direct actuation of the chokes. This involved reading a potentiometer fitted to the pedal movement with a small microprocessor and then translating this input reading to a signal for the servo to respond to. This would enable many things including:
1) multiple throttle profiles - one for track another for road
2) different drivers profiles (expert / novice?)
3) 'service mode' to perhaps limit throttle available against say revs for safe service
4) cruise control? - oop's - ignore that one!

The list is endless and as we have 'toyed' with ideas for a semi sequential shift system using paddles for shifting, the system could be used for throttle 'blip' on downshifts.

I should also point out that whilst the system worked on the test rig, we have not yet tried on a car and it did include multiple failsafes to prevent a WOT fail condition (scary!!!) including both fuel and ignition cut in event of failure.

Finally - Dave Parker is currently using the Edelbrock Pro-flo injection setup on his R42 which does indeed work very well = especially with its idle air control valve for a programmed tickover. He is however also purchasing a Motec M48 system with 8-coil setup to replace the Weber Marelli managemant which I will be helping install / map this winter in preparation for next year. No doubt we will report the results in due course and who knows - Dave might move to an 8 stack system (Kinsler?) at a future date....or maybe a couple of turbos!.......+ NOS! - sorry, getting carried away again..... watch this place!

regards

Paul Thompson
[email protected]

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Thompson ]

 

[Mike Inglis]

What an interesting thread, I never would have guessed that there waere so many ways to skin the same cat!
I have been using Jenvey 48mm throttle bodies and DTA electronics for 2 years on a fairly vigorous 302 giving around 500bhp without any problem whatsoever. The whole setup cost around £3000 and it looks very sexy. Starts first time every time and is fully programmable.
Jenvey and DTA are on the web. Have a look.

Mike

 

[Ron Earp]

Hershal,

That is excellent! Sure ain't no training wheels or a would be BMX bike, that is for sure. I've got $5 that says mid-11s should be possible with some tweaking and slicks - that engine is strong, I'd estimate 340-360 rwhp? Have you dynoed it? Goes to show you don't have to spend $8000 on a engine management system to have a strong runner.

Ron

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Ron,
I have had the engine dynoed twice the first dyno was on a dyno jet and it proclaimed 388 RWHP. The second was a Mustang Dyno and it came up with less at 335 RWHP. I will admit that it was really out of whack and I really didn't take the time to set it up for the pulls.
Sometime soon I will be taking the Cobra down and rebuilding it. It as been a good car but she is getting a little ruff around the edges. I will also go through the engine and do whatever is needed to get it back to peak.
I do plan on taking it to Run and Gun for a good work out. If things stay status quo I will be able to go to many more events this coming year and compete.

Hersh