The shaft is centered when you dial in the adjustable bracket to help with your great big clod hoppers...
Big-Foot's RCR-40 Build Thread - "SuperCar"
- Thread starter Big-Foot
- Start date
Spent good 10 hours in the shop today..
Well I wish they were good hours..
A few weeks ago I found that the spider / or rear clip was "Z'd" about 3/8". I used a Porto-power to push it to where it needed to be to fit the contour of the rear clip. Actually I pushed it about 1/4" beyond. I didn't use any heat - I wanted to see how much memory this fiberglass had. About a week later - I removed what little pressure I had in the Porto-Power and to my surprise the Z was gone and the alignment was pretty good. Over the next two weeks the spider moved back to where it was before. (CRUD!)
I pushed it back and used my heat gun to warm up the span of the spider across the back - I didn't get it over the heat of good hot water - I could still touch it - My fear was that I was going to warp it - All I wanted to do was convince it to "forget" it's Z'd shape an remember it's new contour.
I let it sit for a a few days to cool and remember it's new shape!
I removed the pressure from the Porto-Power again and everything looked fine..
I opened up the rear clip so I could have access to the self-tapping screws used to hold the spider B-pillar as the left side was sticking out about 3/16" from the contour of the rocker panel.
Today -
When I first started to fit the spider, I found that it was 1/2" higher on the left side of the car than the right side.
The door would not fit into the hole because it (door) was too big for the hole. But that was a good problem as you can make the door smaller.. Once i carefully filed the edges of the door/roof - the door was below the top of the spider at the left front corner. The door was aligned with the rest of the spider and the front clip pretty well..
I knew I had no alternative but to put some tension on the top of the spider and use some gentle heat to get it to bow down 1/2" to get the door to fit.
I still have my center support post to keep the spider at the right height for the windshield through all of this.
I used a ratchet strap hooked in through the top left corner of the windshield and down to the floor at the rear bulkhead.. I gave the ratchet a few clicks and it pulled the roof down where it needed to be. I actually pulled it about 1/8" further (1 click).. Gentle heat once again at the lower left corner of the A-Pillar where it meets the base of the spider. Heat again at the top of the spider in the front and a bit of heat across the back of the spider..
I went in for dinner and to call a friend. About an hour later I went back out to give it another go.
I released the tension on the now-cool spider and was happy when the spider went exactly to where I wanted it at the top of the A-pillar and it was the same as the height of the other side..
A little more trimming on the door for the desired 1/8" gap and the left door is now fitted.
I then lowered the rear clip only to find out that the spider had gone back to it's "Z" again and the rear clip does not even come close to aligning with the contour of the spider.
It's off by 3/8" or more on the left side..
I'm really not very happy with this fiberglass right now..
Tomorrow I go out and pull the alignment studs out and figure out how to get this rear clip to fit...
I'm not a bad fabricator but body work like this really frustrates me...
Fran / Jeff / Tom / Rob / Ron / Jac - anyone!!!
If you have any ideas on just what in the h*ll is going on with this body - I could sure use a hand....
Pictures follow;
LF Corner is now "Perfect" height
Across the front - not bad
A bit tight at the base of the A-pillar but that will clean up
Left side of clip is parallel to the rocker - 1/8" gap
Left side B-pillar alignment - note that I needed a 1/16" washer to increase the gap of the B-pillar to bring the angle of the B-Pillar back just about 1.5 degrees to be same as other side
Spider body lines are weird on left side - I suspect that the door and the spider molds were not from the same car - even when spider was not canted 1.5 degrees, it still didn't align.
HERE's the part that really torques my nutz
I don't think that MK1s were supposed to have an extra scoop on the left side!
3/8" misalignment
It's off by 1/4" on the right side
and here's a shot across the roof
Here's my Porto-power in position when I was taking the Z out
Has **ANYONE** had this much trouble getting the pieces of the puzzle to work for them? I don't care if it's an RCR / RF / Tornado / CAV / DRB / MDA - they're all GT40's and all clones of an original...
Any suggestions short of dynamite or a can of gas and a match would be VERY appreciated!!!
Well I wish they were good hours..
A few weeks ago I found that the spider / or rear clip was "Z'd" about 3/8". I used a Porto-power to push it to where it needed to be to fit the contour of the rear clip. Actually I pushed it about 1/4" beyond. I didn't use any heat - I wanted to see how much memory this fiberglass had. About a week later - I removed what little pressure I had in the Porto-Power and to my surprise the Z was gone and the alignment was pretty good. Over the next two weeks the spider moved back to where it was before. (CRUD!)
I pushed it back and used my heat gun to warm up the span of the spider across the back - I didn't get it over the heat of good hot water - I could still touch it - My fear was that I was going to warp it - All I wanted to do was convince it to "forget" it's Z'd shape an remember it's new contour.
I let it sit for a a few days to cool and remember it's new shape!
I removed the pressure from the Porto-Power again and everything looked fine..
I opened up the rear clip so I could have access to the self-tapping screws used to hold the spider B-pillar as the left side was sticking out about 3/16" from the contour of the rocker panel.
Today -
When I first started to fit the spider, I found that it was 1/2" higher on the left side of the car than the right side.
The door would not fit into the hole because it (door) was too big for the hole. But that was a good problem as you can make the door smaller.. Once i carefully filed the edges of the door/roof - the door was below the top of the spider at the left front corner. The door was aligned with the rest of the spider and the front clip pretty well..
I knew I had no alternative but to put some tension on the top of the spider and use some gentle heat to get it to bow down 1/2" to get the door to fit.
I still have my center support post to keep the spider at the right height for the windshield through all of this.
I used a ratchet strap hooked in through the top left corner of the windshield and down to the floor at the rear bulkhead.. I gave the ratchet a few clicks and it pulled the roof down where it needed to be. I actually pulled it about 1/8" further (1 click).. Gentle heat once again at the lower left corner of the A-Pillar where it meets the base of the spider. Heat again at the top of the spider in the front and a bit of heat across the back of the spider..
I went in for dinner and to call a friend. About an hour later I went back out to give it another go.
I released the tension on the now-cool spider and was happy when the spider went exactly to where I wanted it at the top of the A-pillar and it was the same as the height of the other side..
A little more trimming on the door for the desired 1/8" gap and the left door is now fitted.
I then lowered the rear clip only to find out that the spider had gone back to it's "Z" again and the rear clip does not even come close to aligning with the contour of the spider.
It's off by 3/8" or more on the left side..
I'm really not very happy with this fiberglass right now..
Tomorrow I go out and pull the alignment studs out and figure out how to get this rear clip to fit...
I'm not a bad fabricator but body work like this really frustrates me...
Fran / Jeff / Tom / Rob / Ron / Jac - anyone!!!
If you have any ideas on just what in the h*ll is going on with this body - I could sure use a hand....
Pictures follow;
LF Corner is now "Perfect" height
Across the front - not bad
A bit tight at the base of the A-pillar but that will clean up
Left side of clip is parallel to the rocker - 1/8" gap
Left side B-pillar alignment - note that I needed a 1/16" washer to increase the gap of the B-pillar to bring the angle of the B-Pillar back just about 1.5 degrees to be same as other side
Spider body lines are weird on left side - I suspect that the door and the spider molds were not from the same car - even when spider was not canted 1.5 degrees, it still didn't align.
HERE's the part that really torques my nutz
I don't think that MK1s were supposed to have an extra scoop on the left side!
3/8" misalignment
It's off by 1/4" on the right side
and here's a shot across the roof
Here's my Porto-power in position when I was taking the Z out
Has **ANYONE** had this much trouble getting the pieces of the puzzle to work for them? I don't care if it's an RCR / RF / Tornado / CAV / DRB / MDA - they're all GT40's and all clones of an original...
Any suggestions short of dynamite or a can of gas and a match would be VERY appreciated!!!
Randy, Sounds like you have 'stored' the spider and other body parts in an unsupported or unnatural position at some time where the ambient temp was higher than when the body parts were manufactured and they have taken a 'set' in this 'new' shape. I know builders of composite aircraft often 'bake' their parts to a temp higher than its ever likely to experience to avoid problems later. I think Rutan & co initially painted the fresh parts with water based blackboard paint and set them outside in the midday sun @ mojave while still jigged in the correct position/shape to effectively bake them at an elevated temp. While your 'warming' the effected area helps to temporarily bring it back to shape the distortion / tension will actually spread further thru the part than you can visualise as the heat that allowed this distortion would probably have been applied to the whole car etc, unless it was from say a skylight or other localised source, so in the next day or so when the temp climbs it may be enough for things to relax and move again. Talk to Frans f/glass guy to confer with him on this though,- I can see me getting in a load of trouble with both you & Fran if I tell you how I would deal with it
You really need to know the properties etc of the resin system & any foam etc that have been used to decide on how much heat to use.
You really need to know the properties etc of the resin system & any foam etc that have been used to decide on how much heat to use.Randy
Fom what i see and my experience is you are fare to quick with your heat gun and tries to have the body fitting at one certain point.
I hope you have done your door fitting with the recommanded weatherstripping, because it is standard the the top of the door is about up to 3/8" below the spider without it. Once you fit it, it´s all leveled.
How are you quoting that you spider is z´d ? both rear doors lines fit nice ( at least what i can see on the pics) for me it could as well be that your rear clip is not square mounted to the chassis.
Try to measure it using your correct adjusted track and the tires and wheels as a reference from left to right and the distance from your spider hoop to the rear of the spoiler ( Dont take the gap inbetween clip and spider as a reference, measure all the way to the end of the spoiler. Adjust the height left and right at the same points to the floor. I have pictured a lot of this in my build log , more pictures on my photobucket account.
schwabtom/BODY ALIGNEMENT - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Try to keep every panel floating for adjustments, the only thing i had fixed was the front of the spider and the b pillars and even this i had just done with a few metalscrews in slotted holed to be able to move it also.
I lost your phone number, would you send it again, than i call you today
TOM
Fom what i see and my experience is you are fare to quick with your heat gun and tries to have the body fitting at one certain point.
I hope you have done your door fitting with the recommanded weatherstripping, because it is standard the the top of the door is about up to 3/8" below the spider without it. Once you fit it, it´s all leveled.
How are you quoting that you spider is z´d ? both rear doors lines fit nice ( at least what i can see on the pics) for me it could as well be that your rear clip is not square mounted to the chassis.
Try to measure it using your correct adjusted track and the tires and wheels as a reference from left to right and the distance from your spider hoop to the rear of the spoiler ( Dont take the gap inbetween clip and spider as a reference, measure all the way to the end of the spoiler. Adjust the height left and right at the same points to the floor. I have pictured a lot of this in my build log , more pictures on my photobucket account.
schwabtom/BODY ALIGNEMENT - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
Try to keep every panel floating for adjustments, the only thing i had fixed was the front of the spider and the b pillars and even this i had just done with a few metalscrews in slotted holed to be able to move it also.
I lost your phone number, would you send it again, than i call you today
TOM
Randy:
It is really hard to analyze the situation without seeing it in the flesh. But here are some thoughts:
1. rotating the front of the clip (base of windshield) slightly clockwise or counterclockwise will cause the opposite rear corner of the clip to go up or down
2.Pushing the B pillar in will cause the opposite side to go up.
3. Shortening (cutting or sanding) the leading edge of the top of the rear clip will cause it to come down in relation to the rear of the spider.
4. As Tom has suggested, let all the body parts "float". Experiment with twisting and sliding the parts in and out.
5. The firewall may limit the lateral movement of the rear of the spider. I had to file off about an eighth of an inch on the right upper corner.
6. Weather stripping must be in place for these adjustments.
Now some specific observations, for what they are worth
1. I appears that the gap between the A pillar and the left door is tight. You may need another spacer plate on the leftside.
2. Setting the left door out a bit will lead to moving the B pillar on the left out a bit. That may close the gap between the left side of the rear clip and the spider
3. Check to see if the fire wall is interferring with the alignment You may also have to file away a bit of glass at the base of the B pillars to get them into proper position.
4. Enlarge the holes in the spider at the base of the B pillar to give you a bit more room for movement. Just set the screws in without tightening them so you can move the spider. The base of the B pillar looks like it needs to go out a bit.
5. Don't tighten the rocker panels yet. Need to be able to move them in and out as well
6. Set doors in the opening without fastening to the hinges once you have moved the spider around a bit to close that gap on the left rear. Then you can adjust the spider fore and aft to accomodate the doors
7. Don't be too concerned about the alighment around the scoops yet. Focus on the lines between the doors, spider and rear clip top edge. There is a lot of extra glass, particularly on the leading edge of the rear clip aronund the scoop, and with some careful sanding on the glass nice straight lines can be achieved with minimal filler
I agree with Tom: avoid the heat gun and avoid any cutting or sanding until you have exhausted all possible alignment options.
This is almost an art where patience is a real virtue. I often would spend a couple of hours takinng parts off and on without any real progress. Then after sleeping on it an idea would pop up and a bit of progress would follow the next day. We spent several weeks fiddling around before we cut anything.
Take these comments for what they are worth. Tiny adjustments of an eight of an inch can affect the alignment in several places, so without hands on it is hard to be sure
Good luck
It is really hard to analyze the situation without seeing it in the flesh. But here are some thoughts:
1. rotating the front of the clip (base of windshield) slightly clockwise or counterclockwise will cause the opposite rear corner of the clip to go up or down
2.Pushing the B pillar in will cause the opposite side to go up.
3. Shortening (cutting or sanding) the leading edge of the top of the rear clip will cause it to come down in relation to the rear of the spider.
4. As Tom has suggested, let all the body parts "float". Experiment with twisting and sliding the parts in and out.
5. The firewall may limit the lateral movement of the rear of the spider. I had to file off about an eighth of an inch on the right upper corner.
6. Weather stripping must be in place for these adjustments.
Now some specific observations, for what they are worth
1. I appears that the gap between the A pillar and the left door is tight. You may need another spacer plate on the leftside.
2. Setting the left door out a bit will lead to moving the B pillar on the left out a bit. That may close the gap between the left side of the rear clip and the spider
3. Check to see if the fire wall is interferring with the alignment You may also have to file away a bit of glass at the base of the B pillars to get them into proper position.
4. Enlarge the holes in the spider at the base of the B pillar to give you a bit more room for movement. Just set the screws in without tightening them so you can move the spider. The base of the B pillar looks like it needs to go out a bit.
5. Don't tighten the rocker panels yet. Need to be able to move them in and out as well
6. Set doors in the opening without fastening to the hinges once you have moved the spider around a bit to close that gap on the left rear. Then you can adjust the spider fore and aft to accomodate the doors
7. Don't be too concerned about the alighment around the scoops yet. Focus on the lines between the doors, spider and rear clip top edge. There is a lot of extra glass, particularly on the leading edge of the rear clip aronund the scoop, and with some careful sanding on the glass nice straight lines can be achieved with minimal filler
I agree with Tom: avoid the heat gun and avoid any cutting or sanding until you have exhausted all possible alignment options.
This is almost an art where patience is a real virtue. I often would spend a couple of hours takinng parts off and on without any real progress. Then after sleeping on it an idea would pop up and a bit of progress would follow the next day. We spent several weeks fiddling around before we cut anything.
Take these comments for what they are worth. Tiny adjustments of an eight of an inch can affect the alignment in several places, so without hands on it is hard to be sure
Good luck
Hi Guys... Thanks for the help and thoughts...
Jac - The Spider has never been off the chassis since it was picked up at RCR last June 30th. The front and rear clips were removed late last fall (November) and stored in my enclosed racecar trailer until about a month ago. I live in Minneapolis MN and it's not a very warm place at all. Mind you we just saw our first 80 degree F temp last Friday. You make some good points about Rutan and getting everything to "Cure" together... Maybe later this summer while it's still in Gel-Coat I will hit the body with a light coat of black primer and roll the car out into the sun for a few days..
Tom - I PM'd you my phone number. The "Z" I am talking about is from side to side.
Here is a drawing I made to illustrate what I see as the issue;
The alignment is done. The car is level and the wheels are on the car now and they are propped up to the correct ride height.
The rockers are still on the car as picked up from RCR. The right side rocker is pushed back as far as it will go.. The right side rocker panel is forward about 1/4" from the alloy tub. This is correct per Fran. As you can see from the pictures below - the wheels are in the arches in about the most correct position they can be given that the right side rocker can not go back any further without cutting part of it away as it is right up against the alloy tub.
I do have pieces of weather-stripping (Thanks Chuck - same stuff you bought from McMaster) and taking that one step further I have some nuts that are exactly the right thickness taped into place in the channels on top of the car to keep the door tops in perfect alignment so the doors would not stick up or hang down.
B-Pillar screw holes - Yes I slotted them as they were not where they needed to be..
Tom - I've gone over your build thread and Chuck's many times over. I felt pretty certain that I was following the proper path here.. I only used the heat-gun sparingly. The fiberglass never got to the point where I could not put my hand on it and hold it there.. I've done fiberglass work before and while I don't like it - I've not had anything kick my butt (even FFR stuff) the way that this thing has..
Chuck!
I have consumed your entire response and have made careful notes...
Your first point about rotating the base of the windshield may well be part of the answer.
Yes - the left side door hinge needs to be shimmed out about 1/8". There is no shim in there at all right now.
I am going to remove the spider and get the firewall out of the car (for the first time) as well as the original roll-bar which will not be used..
When I reinstall the spider I am going to leave it loose to "float" and see where I am at..
I'll have to get the windshield back out of storage to do some trial fits again to make sure I have not goofed anything up there..
Below you can see the measurement points I used to determine that the top of the spider was too high on the left side as compared to the right side - The measurements were made from the points of the arrow straight down to the floor of the tub. I used a level on the tape measure to make sure I wasn't introducing any angle error;
Thanks again for your help and for the well wishes I have rec'd in email and PM..
Jac - The Spider has never been off the chassis since it was picked up at RCR last June 30th. The front and rear clips were removed late last fall (November) and stored in my enclosed racecar trailer until about a month ago. I live in Minneapolis MN and it's not a very warm place at all. Mind you we just saw our first 80 degree F temp last Friday. You make some good points about Rutan and getting everything to "Cure" together... Maybe later this summer while it's still in Gel-Coat I will hit the body with a light coat of black primer and roll the car out into the sun for a few days..
Tom - I PM'd you my phone number. The "Z" I am talking about is from side to side.
Here is a drawing I made to illustrate what I see as the issue;
The alignment is done. The car is level and the wheels are on the car now and they are propped up to the correct ride height.
The rockers are still on the car as picked up from RCR. The right side rocker is pushed back as far as it will go.. The right side rocker panel is forward about 1/4" from the alloy tub. This is correct per Fran. As you can see from the pictures below - the wheels are in the arches in about the most correct position they can be given that the right side rocker can not go back any further without cutting part of it away as it is right up against the alloy tub.
I do have pieces of weather-stripping (Thanks Chuck - same stuff you bought from McMaster) and taking that one step further I have some nuts that are exactly the right thickness taped into place in the channels on top of the car to keep the door tops in perfect alignment so the doors would not stick up or hang down.
B-Pillar screw holes - Yes I slotted them as they were not where they needed to be..
Tom - I've gone over your build thread and Chuck's many times over. I felt pretty certain that I was following the proper path here.. I only used the heat-gun sparingly. The fiberglass never got to the point where I could not put my hand on it and hold it there.. I've done fiberglass work before and while I don't like it - I've not had anything kick my butt (even FFR stuff) the way that this thing has..
Chuck!
I have consumed your entire response and have made careful notes...
Your first point about rotating the base of the windshield may well be part of the answer.
Yes - the left side door hinge needs to be shimmed out about 1/8". There is no shim in there at all right now.
I am going to remove the spider and get the firewall out of the car (for the first time) as well as the original roll-bar which will not be used..
When I reinstall the spider I am going to leave it loose to "float" and see where I am at..
I'll have to get the windshield back out of storage to do some trial fits again to make sure I have not goofed anything up there..
Below you can see the measurement points I used to determine that the top of the spider was too high on the left side as compared to the right side - The measurements were made from the points of the arrow straight down to the floor of the tub. I used a level on the tape measure to make sure I wasn't introducing any angle error;
Thanks again for your help and for the well wishes I have rec'd in email and PM..
Update;
A number of good folks here and on the ffcobra forum have offered up help and advice.
I printed the information out and went back to the shop to take another shot at it.
As Fran has told us - Aligning a GT40 body is a very tedious process. He's right!
1) Took the spider loose front and rear
2) Removed the firewall
3) Removed the RCR Street roll-bar
4) I took everything loose except the doors.
5) There are two mounting pins for the rear clip on each side - removed the forward ones as they were bolted into the aluminum of the tub.
6) Propped up the rear clip and removed the bolts
7) Right side rocker is all the way against side of the tub and slid back so it hits the front of the tub (behind RF wheel)
8) Went to space the rockers from the 65.5" that they came spaced at - to 66" as specified by manual
9) Found that I could no longer put the left front mounting pin in for the rear clip because there was no aluminum under it (past the edge of the tub) - I left the forward pins out and just use the rear pins to locate the rear clip and went back to the 65.5" spacing.
10) The rear clip fit much differently now. Much of the "Z" of the spider was no longer evident.
11) Put the rear bolts back into the rear clip so I could lift it (I'm by myself).
12) Measured the rear clip:
Measurements were outside to outside at the point where the clip "feet" sit down against the rocker panels.
** The rear clip is 65.5" wide where the rear-most mounting pins are.
** At the front of the rear clip, it is 65.75" wide.
Now here's where the interesting part is...
The rear clip's mounting pins were set to maintain a width of 65.5"
When pushed down over the 4 pins, the rear clip would deform - therefore the Change in the shape of the clip. This change I observed would push the clip in such a direction that it would no longer fit the profile of the rear of the spider.
Below is a drawing of the body and it shows how the body fits down on the chassis. Note that the green lines are parallel and the red lines show the basic direction (with some exaggeration to show effect)
I spent about an hour on the phone with Tom (EGLITOM) this afternoon talking about the dynamics of the body and mounting positions. We discussed many of his mods.. I think that they are not only more original looking but I think they would make a positive impact on overall fit.. Tom - Thank you SO much for your call and taking the time to help me..
So - With the help of Tom, Chuck, Mark, Jeff, Jac and Fran - I have a good idea as to what happened - and how to fix it..
After making careful measurements it seems that the rear clip may have been cut about 3/8" short on the left side - when the clip is lined up with the back of the spider, it is turned clockwise (looking down from the top) slightly which shows via the red-lines as referenced to the green lines.
Also there is some warping in the clip as the two mounting surfaces (feet) are not parallel but they should be.
Now - I have a couple of options here;
1) Mount the rear clip slightly twisted in the clockwise direction.
Option 1 would be the easiest. I doubt that you would even be able to see it unless you looked hard for it.
Option 2 would be the hardest for a number of reasons;
a) Adding material to the left front edge of the clip would not be easy and I would have to question the strength of the addition unless it were reinforced from the inside.
b) I will have to reposition the left side rocker panel toward the rear.
c) The front clip will now have to rotate counter clockwise to meet with the rocker panel on the left side. It does not fit well anyway as evidenced by my having to use a pair of ratchet straps to hold it down (see previous posts).
d) The spider will need to be re-positioned yet again to compensate.
e) The fitting I've already done on the left door will be void and may require a lot of work to rebuild / repair the "work" already done.
I've never been known to take the easy way out...
Any thoughts and advice are appreciated...
---------------
Reference measurements on rear clip length
---------------
Right side - Started at the same distance from the center of the rear spoiler;
Measured to the point of the body above the right side scoop;
It's 59-3/8"
LEFT SIDE
Again the same equal distant point on the rear spoiler;
Measured to the point above the left side scoop;
It's 59"
A number of good folks here and on the ffcobra forum have offered up help and advice.
I printed the information out and went back to the shop to take another shot at it.
As Fran has told us - Aligning a GT40 body is a very tedious process. He's right!
1) Took the spider loose front and rear
2) Removed the firewall
3) Removed the RCR Street roll-bar
4) I took everything loose except the doors.
5) There are two mounting pins for the rear clip on each side - removed the forward ones as they were bolted into the aluminum of the tub.
6) Propped up the rear clip and removed the bolts
7) Right side rocker is all the way against side of the tub and slid back so it hits the front of the tub (behind RF wheel)
8) Went to space the rockers from the 65.5" that they came spaced at - to 66" as specified by manual
9) Found that I could no longer put the left front mounting pin in for the rear clip because there was no aluminum under it (past the edge of the tub) - I left the forward pins out and just use the rear pins to locate the rear clip and went back to the 65.5" spacing.
10) The rear clip fit much differently now. Much of the "Z" of the spider was no longer evident.
11) Put the rear bolts back into the rear clip so I could lift it (I'm by myself).
12) Measured the rear clip:
Measurements were outside to outside at the point where the clip "feet" sit down against the rocker panels.
** The rear clip is 65.5" wide where the rear-most mounting pins are.
** At the front of the rear clip, it is 65.75" wide.
Now here's where the interesting part is...
The rear clip's mounting pins were set to maintain a width of 65.5"
When pushed down over the 4 pins, the rear clip would deform - therefore the Change in the shape of the clip. This change I observed would push the clip in such a direction that it would no longer fit the profile of the rear of the spider.
Below is a drawing of the body and it shows how the body fits down on the chassis. Note that the green lines are parallel and the red lines show the basic direction (with some exaggeration to show effect)
I spent about an hour on the phone with Tom (EGLITOM) this afternoon talking about the dynamics of the body and mounting positions. We discussed many of his mods.. I think that they are not only more original looking but I think they would make a positive impact on overall fit.. Tom - Thank you SO much for your call and taking the time to help me..
So - With the help of Tom, Chuck, Mark, Jeff, Jac and Fran - I have a good idea as to what happened - and how to fix it..
After making careful measurements it seems that the rear clip may have been cut about 3/8" short on the left side - when the clip is lined up with the back of the spider, it is turned clockwise (looking down from the top) slightly which shows via the red-lines as referenced to the green lines.
Also there is some warping in the clip as the two mounting surfaces (feet) are not parallel but they should be.
Now - I have a couple of options here;
1) Mount the rear clip slightly twisted in the clockwise direction.
Option 1 would be the easiest. I doubt that you would even be able to see it unless you looked hard for it.
Option 2 would be the hardest for a number of reasons;
a) Adding material to the left front edge of the clip would not be easy and I would have to question the strength of the addition unless it were reinforced from the inside.
b) I will have to reposition the left side rocker panel toward the rear.
c) The front clip will now have to rotate counter clockwise to meet with the rocker panel on the left side. It does not fit well anyway as evidenced by my having to use a pair of ratchet straps to hold it down (see previous posts).
d) The spider will need to be re-positioned yet again to compensate.
e) The fitting I've already done on the left door will be void and may require a lot of work to rebuild / repair the "work" already done.
I've never been known to take the easy way out...
Any thoughts and advice are appreciated...
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Reference measurements on rear clip length
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Right side - Started at the same distance from the center of the rear spoiler;
Measured to the point of the body above the right side scoop;
It's 59-3/8"
LEFT SIDE
Again the same equal distant point on the rear spoiler;
Measured to the point above the left side scoop;
It's 59"
Randy:
I think you may be closer than you think. A few thoughts:
Forget about the rear clip locating pins. I moved ALL of mine. I should have mentioned that in a previous post. I enlarged the rear hole to give a bit of adjustment slack for the pin, then relocated the forward pin once everything was lined up.
If I am reading your diagram correct, the leading top edge of the rear clip is 4 15/16 on the R and 4 11/16 on the L. Lets just say almost 5 inches and a quarter inch difference one side to the other. Now this may sound like heresy, but I would dare say you could shave the leading edge of the clip down a fair bit, which would give you the ability to line up the entire perimeter of the rear clip with the spider. Mine ended up at 3 1/2 inches. The longest distance when the car was received, before sanding anything, was just under 4" on the left, so you are already starting with almost an inch more to work with than mine.
I know what you are thinking. The rocker panel won't line up with the forward wheel well opening on the rear clip if a quarter or 3/8 inch is removed. But that little bit of gap can be easily corrected with a tiny bit of filler at the bottom of the wheel opening. That is much easier than trying to lengthen the forward flange on the rear clip. You are probably also thinking that the rear wheels won't be as nicely centered as they are now. That may also be true, but a quarter or 3/8" forward or back won't likely be noticed.
I think you are also on the right track by letting the width of the rear clip 'float' with less tension even though it may be a bit wider than 'spec.' Another reason to remove the forward centering pin while aligning the clip.
The alignment between the side scoops and spider and doors will come together. Align it so that you can take the extra off the rear clip, where there is a lot of extra glass. You can get a nice alignment with minimal filler.
This process in part involves selecting the lesser of evils. Decide which imperfections can be most easily fixed and then take those, in exchange for correcting the big issues. Like the alignment between the clip and the spider.
Regarding the spider being skewed to one side, a couple of thoughts. The fit between the rear clip and spider is relatively snug once you get the weather stripping around the rear of the spider, so that when the clip is in place it will tend to line it up. You may want to defer too much energey on that issue until the rear clip is fitted to it. Next, the firewall can skew the alignment and trying to check it with the fire wall out is a good idea. But also note that the fire wall can be used as a support to secure the spider where it should be by placing spacers between the fire wall and the spider in appropriate places. Finally a bit of rotating the front edge of the spider can also make a difference. I suspect yours will come into place
Finally, dont' get too hung up on symmetrical dimensions from one side to the other. Mine had the same variations, which I assume is like the original. Those dimensions give a good relative indication. Rely on how it looks even though all the dimensions will not match up exactly left to right.
Slight adjustments raising the left or right rear of the clip can make big differences as well, which I suspect you have already discovered.
I think you are making really good progress. I am sure Tom gave you some good advice, as he did me. His alignment is really impressive.
It seems we worked on the alignment for hours and hours and then it all seemed to finally come together in a short time. Hopefully your are about there. Good luck
Chuck
I think you may be closer than you think. A few thoughts:
Forget about the rear clip locating pins. I moved ALL of mine. I should have mentioned that in a previous post. I enlarged the rear hole to give a bit of adjustment slack for the pin, then relocated the forward pin once everything was lined up.
If I am reading your diagram correct, the leading top edge of the rear clip is 4 15/16 on the R and 4 11/16 on the L. Lets just say almost 5 inches and a quarter inch difference one side to the other. Now this may sound like heresy, but I would dare say you could shave the leading edge of the clip down a fair bit, which would give you the ability to line up the entire perimeter of the rear clip with the spider. Mine ended up at 3 1/2 inches. The longest distance when the car was received, before sanding anything, was just under 4" on the left, so you are already starting with almost an inch more to work with than mine.
I know what you are thinking. The rocker panel won't line up with the forward wheel well opening on the rear clip if a quarter or 3/8 inch is removed. But that little bit of gap can be easily corrected with a tiny bit of filler at the bottom of the wheel opening. That is much easier than trying to lengthen the forward flange on the rear clip. You are probably also thinking that the rear wheels won't be as nicely centered as they are now. That may also be true, but a quarter or 3/8" forward or back won't likely be noticed.
I think you are also on the right track by letting the width of the rear clip 'float' with less tension even though it may be a bit wider than 'spec.' Another reason to remove the forward centering pin while aligning the clip.
The alignment between the side scoops and spider and doors will come together. Align it so that you can take the extra off the rear clip, where there is a lot of extra glass. You can get a nice alignment with minimal filler.
This process in part involves selecting the lesser of evils. Decide which imperfections can be most easily fixed and then take those, in exchange for correcting the big issues. Like the alignment between the clip and the spider.
Regarding the spider being skewed to one side, a couple of thoughts. The fit between the rear clip and spider is relatively snug once you get the weather stripping around the rear of the spider, so that when the clip is in place it will tend to line it up. You may want to defer too much energey on that issue until the rear clip is fitted to it. Next, the firewall can skew the alignment and trying to check it with the fire wall out is a good idea. But also note that the fire wall can be used as a support to secure the spider where it should be by placing spacers between the fire wall and the spider in appropriate places. Finally a bit of rotating the front edge of the spider can also make a difference. I suspect yours will come into place
Finally, dont' get too hung up on symmetrical dimensions from one side to the other. Mine had the same variations, which I assume is like the original. Those dimensions give a good relative indication. Rely on how it looks even though all the dimensions will not match up exactly left to right.
Slight adjustments raising the left or right rear of the clip can make big differences as well, which I suspect you have already discovered.
I think you are making really good progress. I am sure Tom gave you some good advice, as he did me. His alignment is really impressive.
It seems we worked on the alignment for hours and hours and then it all seemed to finally come together in a short time. Hopefully your are about there. Good luck
Chuck
Hi Chuck,
The distance I measured at the top of the clip was from the leading edge of the clip to the rear window opening itself.
I can't imagine having that much less material than you have. Did you measure from the front edge of the clip to the in-set (reveal?) where the rear window screws to the body?
If it weren't for the fact that these cars where not symmetrical to begin with - compromise would not be an option. I'll find the lesser of the evils in the name of esthetics.
Thanks for your reply - Your logic is good!
-----
As I measure further and take stock in what might have happened to the original 1008 car that this mold was reported to be taken from, I found more clues that the left side of the car is shorter than the right side.
The door on the left is also cut shorter than the one on the right by 1/4".
Left Door at 1-7/8"
Right door at 2-1/8"
The distance I measured at the top of the clip was from the leading edge of the clip to the rear window opening itself.
I can't imagine having that much less material than you have. Did you measure from the front edge of the clip to the in-set (reveal?) where the rear window screws to the body?
If it weren't for the fact that these cars where not symmetrical to begin with - compromise would not be an option. I'll find the lesser of the evils in the name of esthetics.
Thanks for your reply - Your logic is good!
-----
As I measure further and take stock in what might have happened to the original 1008 car that this mold was reported to be taken from, I found more clues that the left side of the car is shorter than the right side.
The door on the left is also cut shorter than the one on the right by 1/4".
Left Door at 1-7/8"
Right door at 2-1/8"
Randy,
you are correct....if you ask a few guys that have measured original GT40's many of them will tell you that one door is indeed 1/4" shorter than the other....as is the RCR.
Obviously the fact that the RCR40 is truly an original shape, it shares the same idiosyncrasies as an original but your patience will be worthwhile when the car is complete, as you can see from other finished cars on the forum.....
you are correct....if you ask a few guys that have measured original GT40's many of them will tell you that one door is indeed 1/4" shorter than the other....as is the RCR.
Obviously the fact that the RCR40 is truly an original shape, it shares the same idiosyncrasies as an original but your patience will be worthwhile when the car is complete, as you can see from other finished cars on the forum.....
Randy:
Yes, indeed, my measurement was to the window opening. Pic attached. Here is the cool part. I ended up trimming the leading edge of the clip so that dimension was exactly 3 1/2 inches on both sides - so when it was trimmed symmetrically it did indeed line up well!
And you and Fran are indeed correct, one side is shorter than the other. I can tell the difference in the slight descrepancy in the wheel well openings on the right side, both front and rear. Pic of the rear atttached. A bit of filler made the descrepancy go away.
I wil soon post some detailed pics on my blog of the 'corrections' we made to address all these little details. When I think back to the descrepancys we originally had (most of which you are now experiencing) and where we are now I am really amazed at the result. You will be too. Just keep plugging away.
Chuck
Yes, indeed, my measurement was to the window opening. Pic attached. Here is the cool part. I ended up trimming the leading edge of the clip so that dimension was exactly 3 1/2 inches on both sides - so when it was trimmed symmetrically it did indeed line up well!
And you and Fran are indeed correct, one side is shorter than the other. I can tell the difference in the slight descrepancy in the wheel well openings on the right side, both front and rear. Pic of the rear atttached. A bit of filler made the descrepancy go away.
I wil soon post some detailed pics on my blog of the 'corrections' we made to address all these little details. When I think back to the descrepancys we originally had (most of which you are now experiencing) and where we are now I am really amazed at the result. You will be too. Just keep plugging away.
Chuck
Attachments
Thanks for the encouragement guys...
Fran - As long as I keep my eye on this :thumbsup: ;
I won't end up with something like this :thumbsdown: ;
Chuck / Tom / Rob / Bill - I am a regular on your build logs....
Thanks for taking the time to go through the effort of documenting the process...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Fran - As long as I keep my eye on this :thumbsup: ;
I won't end up with something like this :thumbsdown: ;
Chuck / Tom / Rob / Bill - I am a regular on your build logs....
Thanks for taking the time to go through the effort of documenting the process...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
