Gender equality, or stupidity?

Pat

Supporter
The problem to me is the discrimination in the standards is an effort by some to make the military a "incubator of social change". "Gender norming" is now the rule at all three service academies, so that women are measured against other women, rather than against men (who may have outperformed them) or objective norms dictated by years of combat experience. Standards are standards, if they are valid, there should NEVER be a waiver for gender, age, or whatever. The price is sadly is often paid in blood.

I've written before about Navy Lt. Kara Hultgreen who was killed attempting to land her F-14A Tomcat fighter on the USS Abraham Lincoln. The Navy's official public report was the crash "was precipitated by a malfunction of the left engine." At the time, rumblings from the ranks about pilot error were greeted with counter charges of sexism. As part of the Navy's media press management, ABC's newscaster Peter Jennings said there had been a "vicious campaign against allowing women to serve in combat." As today, honest discussion about the events was shouted down and those attempting to raise the issue were savaged by the media and the political/military establishment. Several careers were ended over it. The truth was actively suppressed and not fairly addressed for years. Some say it still hasn't.

But back to Lt Hultgreen, here's what really happened. On approach to the USS Abraham Lincoln, she made five major errors and ignored repeated wave-off signals by ship's landing signal officer (ironically one of her former flight instructors). One of those errors caused the F-14A's left engine to stall, sending the plane out of control because Lt. Hultgreen mistakenly jammed on the rudder in contravention of established emergency protocols. Her radar intercept officer successfully ejected and survived.
In the twenty years of F-14A's service, no pilot had ever stalled an engine this way. In an effort to back up their lie that the crash was due to engine failure and not due to the systemic breakdown of standards and leadership, the Navy selected nine male pilots to "fly" through Lt. Hultgreen's pre-crash conditions in a ground simulator. Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Jeremy M. Boorda (who later committed suicide) reported "the situation was re-created in an F-14 flight simulator. Eight of nine pilots in the simulator were unable to fly the plane out of the replicated regime." What Admiral Boorda failed to say was that the male pilots had been ordered not to execute the F-14A manual's so-called Bold Face Instructions, the critical things a pilot must do to fly through an emergency similar to Lt. Hultgreen's.

Documents later obtained in related litigation, show that Lt. Hultgreen not only had subpar performance on several phases of her training but had four "downs" (major errors), just one or two of which are sufficient to justify the dismissal of a trainee. Political pressure to speed more women in combat is the direct cause of Lt. Hultgreen's death. But the story doesn't end there.
A second female F-14A pilot, was also allowed to continue training despite marginal scores and seven "downs", the last of which was not recorded so she could pass the final stages of training. She was later taken off flight status as she was regarded as so dangerous, no one would fly with her. She subsequently sued the Navy.

These double standards are destructive in several important ways. They risk the lives not only of young women like Lt. Hultgreen and her female peers but the lives of fellow military men and women. They dumb-down aviation and other combat standards as if they are some sort of perverse affirmative action program. After all what do we do when a male flight trainee, washed out because he had four "downs" and subpar performance, accuses the Navy of sex discrimination? In the name of sex equality, do we lower standards for males? Will we do that if they simply claim they are homosexual or come from a lower economic zip code? Finally, special concessions for female pilots, some politician's child (or anybody else) undermine military morale and respect not to mention adding to the already dangerous business of combat.

I actually know one of those involved in this and he said the sad part was that Lt Hultgreen was actually a good aviator who had tremendous potential. She just wasn't ready for the transition from sub-sonic anti-sub aircraft to carrier based fighters. The conclusion of many, including the LSO and former instructor was that if they were allowed to recycle her and give more time to meet the normal standard, she would have done it. But the politics at the time prevented any such washout. Those politics are the basis of my criticism.

If the military establishes critical double standards for female aviation trainees and others, the nation should debate wisdom of the Navy's affirmative action policy. Then there's the pure military mission question: how much military efficiency are we prepared to sacrifice to promote a feminist or other activist's vision of equality? When 10% of the female sailors become pregnant during a ship's deployment are we comfortable with the obvious impact on the vessels combat readiness? Should a nuclear sub have provisions for infant care?

Certainly these examples do not equate to "all military women", some percentage of both male and female combat pilots will be excellent flyers, while some other percentage of both male and female combat pilots will be poor flyers. My point is there is simply no excuse for relaxing standards or rushing unqualified women (or men) through requirements for political grand standing. Nor does detract from realizing that some women can be highly qualified combat pilots and meet the standards. But to waive standards implies, women can't fairly make the cut which in my opinion is a sexist assumption in itself. We have to be able to live with the fact that men and women are different the gender population percentages that can meet certain physical criteria are different.

Lt. Hultgreen was by all standards a class act. Ironically, Hultgreen herself felt the pressures of militant feminism and gender quotas and wanted no part of it. On behalf of female naval aviators, she had earlier appealed to Rear Admiral Robert Hickey, saying, "Guys like you have to make sure there's only one standard. If people let me slide through on a lower standard, it's my life on the line. I could get killed."
They did and she died.
 
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Larry L.

Lifetime Supporter
The above post should be required reading for the media, the Pentagon, and every pinhead on the hill in D.C.

'Dead serious.

Well said.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Pat, that story sums up what I think also. Thanks for posting.

Jim, believe it or not I am interested in your opinion on whether women should be allowed in front line combat or not. Particularly the foot soldier role, AL's post was about marines.
Pat's post was about an aviatrix ( sorry sexist word) who was apparently fast tracked because of gender.
I am interested in your opinion on whether woman should serve alongside men on the ground and should the standards be "adjusted" to suit a greater participation of women in front line combat?
 

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Our Military is all volunteer........If after training the Military decideds that this persons highest and best use is as a combat soldier, then thats how it sould be.

Pete, earlier in post #12 a said the above, but the question is really much more complicated than that.

Like alot of these issues I could easily argue both sides of this one. You may not believe this but....if everyone here was strongly pro-Women in combat, I would present a strong argument against Women in combat.

Its not that I'm being hypocritical, two faced or even argumentitive, is just that when there are two sides to adebate and almost everyone in the discussion agressivly takes one side, I feel a sense of fairness and a duty to stronly present the other side.

I do know that even in times of war, only a very small per cent of those in the Military are in "combat". Additionally there are a huge number of very important support jobs that need to be filled.

Although I have never been in the Military I would like to think that all folks as they enter the service go through training and also go through a number tests to show special ability, skills or previous training that could be put to use.........

Perhaps a skilled mechanic or commputer nerds should not become a Squad leaders.....

Now I know that Pat will correct me if I get this wrong, but I imagine as the early training ends and people are assigned to their duty stations their abilities are taken into consideration.

I'd like to think that the worst shot in a basic training class would not be sent to sniper school or even to a front line unit.

Now, if after training, a person (regardless of race, religion or sex) has the qualifications and the ability for front line combat than thats how it should be.

But that said, if a person is not smart enough, not big enough or not strong enough to do a job then they should not do be given that assignment.

That holds true for all.

The military has always set standards for folks to meet and they change. In WW2 they took almost everyone who was even marginally acceptable.

Same for Viet Nam.

Today our all volunteer military can be more picky, I think they now require a HS education and the physical requirment have been raised. This is a good thing.

They need to set the requirements to what is needed to do the job. If you cant meet the requirement then you need to do something else.

The only caveat to this is that the ability necessary needs to fit the job, setting standard artifically high to exclude folks capable of doing the job is not acceptable either.
 
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No mention here of the 19,000 annual sexual assaults on women in the US military, that is just the reported cases. How can this possibly be an acceptable situation with a handful of women alongside thousands of men ?? So what we have here is women that want to be men and men that are expected to be angels.

Bob
 
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Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
No mention here of the 19,000 annual sexual assaults on women in the US military, that is just the reported cases. How can this possibly be an acceptable situation with a handful of women alongside thousands of men ?? So what we have here is women that want to be men and men that are expected to be angels.

Bob

Bob, men expected to be Angels doesn't wash with me. There is no, none, nada
Excuse for sexual assault whatsoever.
 
Bob, men expected to be Angels doesn't wash with me. There is no, none, nada
Excuse for sexual assault whatsoever.

Of course there is no excuse for sexual assault but take a million guys you dont know and chuck in a few thousand women. The chance of at least a few of them getting unwanted attention is not only probable but inevitable. The 19000 reported cases prove that Pete , these stats were out of date and have now increased to in excess of 21000 which is probably proportionate to the increased number of women employed , then we can move on to the compensation claims for sexual harassment in the workplace. Its all sounding expensive to me.

Bob


Get your cheque book out Obama you need to fuck more of the nations money away.:)
 
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Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
So are you saying that women should not be in the armed forces because they risk sexual assault? If not I'm sorry I'm missing your point.
 
So are you saying that women should not be in the armed forces because they risk sexual assault? If not I'm sorry I'm missing your point.

What I am saying Pete is there are huge implications involved in adding women into the armed forces both financial and ethical.The proof stares us in the face and despite the ideal world scenario`s it is not realistic to have women alongside men in the battlefield. Why should there be a financial burden on the armed forces because a handful of women want to play soldiers ? This is not a sexist statement but from a realists point of view.

Bob
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
Agree with Pete this isn't a political issue.

Agree with Pete the Israelis seem to have no issue with this.

Agree with Pete the military should decide this not a bunch of internet hacks like myself.

Fuck, I agree with Pete.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Bob, if you are saying that women should not be in front line combat I agree with you.
If you are saying they shouldn't be in non combat roles then I disagree.
If you are saying they shouldn't be in the military because of the risk of sexual
Assault then you might as well ban them from civilian jobs as well. And I obviously don't agree with that.
I do say that absolutely no standards should be dropped or changed to accommodate women in any area.
 
Bob, if you are saying that women should not be in front line combat I agree with you.
If you are saying they shouldn't be in non combat roles then I disagree.
If you are saying they shouldn't be in the military because of the risk of sexual
Assault then you might as well ban them from civilian jobs as well. And I obviously don't agree with that.
I do say that absolutely no standards should be dropped or changed to accommodate women in any area.

No I can go along with them being employed within the forces but as a separate attachment like catering ,medical corps or even logistics. But shoulder to shoulder with the men spells trouble unless we bring back the bromide tea. Its not about standards or dropping them its about sensible segregation in attempt to protect them which in turn would oil the gears not chuck sand into them.

Bob
 
If standards are set, then everyone should meet those standards, no ifs, ands, or buts.
This seems more than obvious. it is not about the sex of a soldier, it is about their ability to perform the role, whatever that may be.

If role A requires the person to be able to lift a certain weight, or run a specific distance, in a specific time, then that person applying for that role should be able to meet the target requirement. If they can't, then they are not suitable for the role. Period.

Not one target for Male, one for Female, one for Gay, one for Black, one for White, one for Latino. Then throw them all into the same role. It is obvious that you would then create a mixed bag of ability, rather than fielding a high level squad of top trained, maximum ability soldiers.
 

Pat

Supporter
Just for the record, in the IDF 90% of military roles, not all, are open to women and only 3% of combat positions have female soldiers. What is different is the U.S. is evaluating opening close-combat roles in both infantry, armor and special forces to women by 2016.
So direct comparisons to the Israeli army don't fully align.

The other issue is requiring women to be subject to and register for the draft as all U.S. males are. In 1981, a Supreme Court case ruled that women did not have to register for the Selective Service as men ages 18 to 25 do because of a combat exclusion rule. That rule has been eliminated. So now what?
I'm interested to hear the politician that presses for drafting women. If we really are about gender equality, women need to be subject to the draft - you can't have it both ways.
 
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