Healthcare

[Nick]

Even so, that stat is a fact, It would seem that the remedy is to NOT live on welfare and GET A JOB. I am 66 years old with one year of after high school education. I have never wanted for a job because if you want to work, there is employment of some kind until something better comes along, even in this economy. I don't see a reason other than a physical or mental disability for not being able to work to better yourself, and there are lot's of people on welfare that don't fit in those catagories.

Al,

This is an argument that is often put forward in the UK, I have been lucky enough to only have been unemployed for 6 months of my life. However, if I was looking now and seeing the recent experiences of young people I know trying to find work it's not as easy as you imply.

From one of our national newspapers.

Soaring unemployment has left an average of ten people chasing every vacancy, figures revealed yesterday.
Ministers were on the defensive last night over claims that unemployment was climbing sharply in areas where Jobcentres were closing and will exceed two million this week.

The Government is diverting hundreds of officials from other posts to serve as welfare advisers.

Nearly 1,000 civil servants working on child maintenance and disability claims have been drafted in to reinforce job centres.

A survey by the TUC found that in some parts of the country, the number of jobseekers far exceeds the number of vacancies.

Despite claims by Gordon Brown that there are up to 500,000 unfilled vacancies, the study found extensive job shortages.

The TUC says 60 workers are available for each vacancy in the South East.

The Isle of Wight is the worst hit, with 3,152 registered jobless in an area where there are just 53 registered vacancies.

General secretary Brendan Barber said: 'These shocking figures blow out of the water the Government's claim that there are plenty of jobs available for people who are prepared to look.'


Regards

Nick

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al,

This is an argument that is often put forward in the UK, I have been lucky enough to only have been unemployed for 6 months of my life. However, if I was looking now and seeing the recent experiences of young people I know trying to find work it's not as easy as you imply.

I've found that people only look in agencies and newspaper ads. Most don't "cold call" at a business to inquire about work. I remember when I was a teenager and my brother was out of work, we went to houses that had cars in the yard that were not running. We bought or just removed the car for nothing and sold it at a salvage yard, not a lot of money, but money. I'm just saying that there is always something you can do to make ends meet. If your broke you need to humble yourself a bit. My dad was an immigrant from Sweden, he had a high school education. He worked through the Depression, but he wasn't afraid to work. He could do anything and do it well, from being a factory superintendent to masonry or finish carpentry work. He gave me something that I value above everything. When I was in my early teens I asked him how he could do all of those things. He said " If you want to do something bad enough, you can do it and do it well". Consequently, I have never thought that anything was impossible if I tried hard enough. That's what a lot people lack, they dont try hard enough!

 

[Jack]

Big +-1 on that Al!

 

[Keith]

Al, with respect to you, that attitude will get nowhere with the young because they don't understand it. But I totally agree with you. It just doesn't wash anymore is the problem.

You are of an age that thought differently, worked harder and had many more values than they have today. If you were brought up in an era of hard knocks I would have to say you were lucky as am I.

Consider the difference today. Brought up on junk food, easy credit, celebrity hypnotised, easy come easy go, insular internet and a relentess bombardment of the media for commercial gain, these kids have no chance and I feel sorry for them.

It's not THEIR fault, it's ours. We the parents who have shunned our collective responsibilities and have left them to the mercy of other more sinister forces to act as role models. Gangs, computer games, violent movies and dishonest politicians without honour. That's a sweeping generalisation for sure, but I bet it describes 30-40% of the youth population of both the USA and UK.

I was part of this process in the entertainment business, but always had qualms about the morality. Now i'm finished with it - I just wish I was never part of the decline of youth.

There are of course, brilliant achieving kids in both countries, but no-one mentions them or sings their praises, they just get on with it. Some are products (proteges) of dominating parents but many just do it because they want to. But peer pressure gradually wins the day. Want to think about 10 years hence?

I don't know the answers, and I guess that this injustice, for that is what it is, starts right at the top, and perhaps is what your President is trying to achieve.

Finally I would say, that vital as the American "Frontier" philisophy was in forging your great nation, it has no place in the circumstances of today. If you want a true democracy and true freedom, it mustn't be for a select few - it must be available to all.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Doug S.]

Al, with respect to you, that attitude will get nowhere with the young because they don't understand it.....It's not THEIR fault, it's ours. We the parents who have shunned our collective responsibilities ........

I'm with you on all but the last part, Keith. I've been preaching for years that our generation made things too easy for our children. Hungry? Don't want to wait 30 minutes for dinner to be made? Well, there's always that fast-food place down the street, or how about leftovers that we can reheat in less than 3 minutes in the microwave? No need to wait, heaven forbid that we would ask you, our children, to endure that!

It IS our fault, but I don't agree that we shunned or collective responsibilities, with one exception. We just wanted our kids to have the benefits we never had. My 26 year old daughter can't remember a home without a message machine, a video-recording device of some sort, a microwave, etc., b/c we (and by that I mean our generation) wanted our kids to have those conveniences we didn't have as children. We wanted our kids to have better lives than we had, and we adopted the consumer philosophy to make sure it happened. Now kids in the 8 to 10 year old range think they have to have cell phones.......and parents are giving them to the children b/c we can, we have the technology.

The exception to your philosophy that we abdicated our responsibilities lies in this--by giving our children ALL those conveniences, we seem to have absolved them of the responsibility to learn to persevere in the face of adversity. Yep, things were made TOO easy for them, and now they think life ought to be that easy as young adults b/c it has always been that easy for them, we made sure of it--and if life was too hard for them, we found an excuse, ADHD, whatever, to hopefully keep them from thinking they were failures. They think they ought to be able to graduate from high school and walk right into good paying jobs, never mind that we had to endure endless dead-end job after dead-end job to get where we are, they didn't see that so it doesn't exist to them. They only see the income we have and the lifestyle we provided for them.

Yes, there are notable exceptions to this theory, youngsters who are willing to work hard and are achievement oriented, but they are truly the exceptions.......and we wonder why it's now necessary to enact legislation that will make it easier for this generation to survive, such as subsidized healthcare (that is what this thread is about, right?), when we find that they can't provide those things for themselves after we can no longer provide them for them. In the U.S. I could only carry my daughter on my health insurance until her 25th birthday, after that the law won't permit it unless she is one of those individuals Al mentioned with mental or physical disabilities. She got thyroid cancer at 24 years of age, she's looking at a lifetime without medical insurance unless we can throttle the insurance companies who will ALWAYS refuse her coverage if they can, and more and more employers (where she could get coverage under a group policy) are dropping their health insurance coverage for employees b/c of the cost factor.

So, yeah, I've freely and frequently admitted to friends that it's our fault, not the kids.....but in doing so I am not attempting to absolve them of the responsibility to figure out what to do about it, just frustrated that in making things so easy for them that we might have rendered them unable to do so.

Like Al says, it's all about drive, determination, and the ability to persevere in the face of adversity.......we didn't teach our kids that, or (as in my case) even when we did, our society attempted to tell them that we were mean and that things would get better someday.

Right.......I'm not holding my breath, that's for sure.

Doug

 

[Bill Musarra]

Doug,
There is only one flaw I see in your argument. If we give these things(cell phones, latest electronic toys etc) we as parents have the Responsibility of setting the limits on them. Who they can(can't) call, where they can(can't) surf, who they can(can't) hangout with. And not worry if it makes them not cool or feel left out. They have to be Taught Limits, Responsibility, Respect and how to get it. How to stand up for themselves and values that we want them to have, and the consequences that can befall them. If we don't have an active role in their life, then you can't blame them for not having the right values. Talking at a sit down dinner table(yours not McDonalds) gives you the time to talk to the kids, find out what is going on in their lives, and a chance to be honest with them.
Sure there is a lot they have to learn, but I want to be the one that does most of the teaching, not some child(friend) who hasn't a clue or has a warped sense of reality. If I give them the fundamentals then they have a better chance of making the right decision when the time comes.
One other point , if they understand the history leading up to where they are, they will have a different picture of where they are, or where they are going. I realize this makes us old fogies, but if they don't know the history, they, as the line goes, are bound to repeat the mistakes. If you keep giving in to the instant gratification, then You are the one to blame for the impetuousness.

Bill

 

[Nick]

Douglas, My brother,,,,,,ME LIKES you!!!!

The unfortunate thing is that in Capitalism the word empathy has been BURNED OFF of all literature.

I despise religion, but I am curious what Jesus Christ would think of Capitalism, it is his BDAY today right?!!

Faili

Apologies to you, I was so busy trying to be clever and justify my arguments it took me a while to realise how profound your posting was. Although I don’t hate religion, just what men do in the name of religion.

I’m no expert but one thing that stands out to me. Jesus did say to a man who asked him what he must do to inherit eternal life, that he must go and sell everything he has and give it to the poor, the ultimate in wealth redistribution?.

Presumably, and in the interest of trying to stay on topic, this would include the poor contained in the groups, "of the illegal aliens and all of the dead weights on welfare”.

I really hope this does not sound to sanctimonious, personally, I think Jesus was just trying to make a point, I have no intention of selling everything I have and giving it to the poor, I delegate that responsibility to the government and try not to complain too much about my taxes, hopeing an increasing proportion of it does end up helping the poor, and if that includes paying for their healthcare, then so be it.

Regards
Nick

(Flame suit on)

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Douglas, My brother,,,,,,ME LIKES you!!!!

The unfortunate thing is that in Capitalism the word empathy has been BURNED OFF of all literature.

I despise religion, but I am curious what Jesus Christ would think of Capitalism, it is his BDAY today right?!!

2 years ago, I had 3 motorcycles, 2 trucks and 2 sports cars (all at the same time!!). IMHO, it is irrelevant to say, "WELL, I didn't steal them, I earned them by working hard". If they can NOT see what is wrong with "the above picture", then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I believe that in our capitalist system we do empathize with those in need. The US citizen, rich and poor gives about 1/4 of a trillion dollars to charity each year. There are lots of ultra rich (Bill Gates, Jon Huntsman, Tiger Woods, and Google to name a few) that give back each year. Jon Huntsman goes beyond giving back. Huntsman Cancer Institute Capitalist empathize, we just want the healthy and able to get off their ass and give work a try.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Faili



I delegate that responsibility to the government and try not to complain too much about my taxes, hopeing an increasing proportion of it does end up helping the poor, and if that includes paying for their healthcare, then so be it.

Regards
Nick

(Flame suit on)

Taxes, I do complain when we piss away what will turn out to be a few billion to buy votes through the senate and congress.
Nelson, Nebraska. No State Medicaid and Medicare taxes in perpetuity.
Louisiana $300 million
Dodd Connecticut funds for a hospital.
These are just a few, our tax dollars used to pay for bribes. We the tax payer are going to have to pay for these bribes. We would get arrested if we did this! They are awfully generous with someone elses money.

 

[Keith]

Unfortunately there is no statistic in the world that can differentiate those desperate to get work and those who are shy of it but I'll bet a clapped out Pinto to an SPF that there's more people willing to work than those that aren't and that many of them find themselves trapped in a downward spiralling poverty trap which is hard, if not impossible to get out of.

It might be worth a brief personal history to illustrate a point.

I lost my career exactly 8 years ago because of a work related criminal injury with a handgun. Prior to this, apart from a brief career in journalism when I left school (at 15) I have never worked for anyone else ever. I have created my own career, thought on my feet and made a pile of money which I spent quickly because I'm not that fond of accumulating it.

I never saw July 21st 2001 coming, and since then have scrabbled around trying to do what I do best without much success because I had lost a lot of confidence.

Then 3 years ago I developed a chronic degenerative lung disease which requires constant medical attention. I have no insurance, I am National Health patient. Ay my age I cannot get a job for love nor money - in the UK they want idiots they can train 'monkey see - monkey do' not someone with a life time of experience in managing people and processes. I had some savings and I recieved over $100,000 in some sort of compensarion because my client was proved to be negligent.

I don't claim anything because I am too proud preferring instead to live on my own resources and put bread on my own table even though I am entitled as a 45 year contributor to NHI (National Health Insurance).

I start a new business with nothing 3 years ago and it is very successful for the effort I put in, grossing $200,000 but profits swallowed by start-up costs. 1 year ago - respiratory failure business doomed asssets stripped bailiffs called.

I now only have my house and the creditors want it. So, I'm to be cast on the street with a short life expectancy which will diminish even further if I don't find the right conditions.

Which country would I rather be in at this point?

This is not a contest it is just plain facts. Remember, I lived in the USA for over 6 years and have experienced both systems, but I am typical of thousands of good people in the UK who, through no fault of their own and most likely victims of the 'unnacceptable face of capitalism' corruption and failed politics to say nothing of poor health - are in this very same situation. The difference is, here in the UK there is help - immediate and effective despite what people have said about our 'system'. Talk to someone in that system for the plain truth.

I would not be alive today if it wasn't for the Social Services and medical care available in the UK absolutely free of charge! Of course the system is exploited by the lazy buggers, the itinerants and the crooks, but that doesn't make the system bad.

I am not a socialist but I care deeply about others, and I don't care what people dish out to me I will not change that view.

Though a very odd place to post this (it's the first time I've ever done it - blame the steroids)I want to say:

I Thank God for the British Social System.

Amen

I apologise in advance for these personal comments. I have always tried to leave the washing in the basket and I do believe in the plain truth that sometimes, the more you know about some people, the less you're going to want to know them

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Keith, I am truly sorry for what has happened to you!
You say "I now only have my house and the creditors want it. So, I'm to be cast on the street with a short life expectancy which will diminish even further if I don't find the right conditions."
In the US, you would be cared for in long term care and the state you lived in would provide that care. At least that's what would happen in Arizona.

 

[Keith]

That's very good Al - pleasantly surprised to hear that. In the small town where I lived in the US, at least one if not more people died weekly from exposure on the streets - heck they used to hang a black person every Friday at 6pm in the town square as a matter of principle right up until 1962,...

Sorry, edit: Would also like to say that I not at retirement age and am still capable of work although it would probably have to be in the controlled environment of my domicile. I have up-to-the-minute computer technology (I am a Gemini - communication is my thang) and can quite simply perform most corporate or creative functions from home. Trouble is, no boss or client I ever met would trust peop[le working from home - if you cain't be seen, you ain't working, right?

I find it amazing in light of the, ahem. Climate Change controversy (whether you believe it or not which I do not) that many more employers are not actively building businesses in this manner. WE have vast "call centres" here in the UK (yours are all in India) and they sheds full of people talking into phones with computer screens and a car park full of cars.

Why can't that be done from home? Why can't I do that?

 

[Nick]

Keith,

Thank you for your posts, you have put so succinctly and eloquently, much of what I have witnessed or experienced in my own life, and was trying so badly to put into words.

Easy for me to say, but in all sincerity, good luck and best wishes.

Nick

 

[Doug S.]

Would also like to say that I not at retirement age and am still capable of work although it would probably have to be in the controlled environment of my domicile. I have up-to-the-minute computer technology (I am a Gemini - communication is my thang) and can quite simply perform most corporate or creative functions from home. Trouble is, no boss or client I ever met would trust peop[le working from home - if you cain't be seen, you ain't working, right?

Why can't that be done from home? Why can't I do that?

Keith, I, too, would like to tell you how sorry I am to hear about your circumstances. I applaud your desire to be productive despite conditions that would discourage all but the most determined. We really need more like you :thumbsup: !

As for your issue regarding working from home, I know a few people who do just that.....as employers in the U.S. attempt to reduce overhead costs, they have laid out the welcome mat for those who would not take up space and climate control and parking at cost to the business, so I suspect it will be even more common in the future.

As for your healthcare issues (that is what this thread is about, right?), here in the U.S. most people in a condition similar to yours would receive health care through our Medicare system and if truly unable to work would most likely receive a monthly disability income from our Social Security system--two so called "socialist" programs that have been operating for decades despite the frequent and continued raiding of the coffers by politicians. You wouldn't get rich, but might be able to continue to afford your present housing (assuming it is modest).

You would fall into that category of "physically handicapped" mentioned by Al, not into the same pot as those slackers who have given welfare a bad name by their manipulative behaviors. During the Clinton administration there were attempts to switch welfare to "workfare" by limiting the duration of support payments and requiring attendance at some sort of government subsidized training program......I wonder if that was discontinued or what, I don't hear much about it any more---all you hear about are the "welfare queens" who supposedly fatten their bank accounts by having numerous children (I'm not even sure that is allowed any more).

Our own taxation arm, the IRS, has for years operated a form of wealth redistribution, a benefit for the low income population called "Earned Income Credit". Essentially, it requires at least one child to qualify. I prepared income taxes for a sister-in-law back in the 1980's and actually called the IRS b/c by my calculations the individual was to receive a "refund" that exceeded her yearly income tax deductions, I thought I had my figures wrong--nope! This was truly exploited by certain families with many children until the I.R.S. instituted a limit of 2 children per return. Now families with more than 2 children "share" the income tax deduction for their "excess" children with other families and then take a portion of that other family's return check for the favor, both families benefit......it SUX big time, but it is what it is. Give people a chance to cheat, they'll use it!

Doug

 

[Nick]

Doug,

As Keith said in his post, “At my age I cannot get a job for love nor money - in the UK they want idiots they can train 'monkey see - monkey do' not someone with a life time of experience in managing people and processes.”

At the moment in the UK you can be the healthiest person alive, but if you want a job don’t be young, and don’t be past 40, and don't be a good manager. The problem for those in this situation through no fault of there own, and needing welfare support, is they are immediately branded slackers, or dead weights on welfare, or they told they just don’t try hard enough.

However, if 10 people are chasing every job vacancy 90% of those seeking employment are going to fall into this category, and need social support for healthcare, and welfare until they can get back on their feet.

I believe the slackers are fewer than we think; unfortunately the press like to highlight the problem because bad news sells. However, were do you draw the line with the slackers, do you refuse them healthcare, and make them suffer because you don’t think they deserve it. Do you refuse it to their children and make them suffer because their parents are slackers, so why should you pay for it

To echo Keith “Thank God for the British Social System”

Nick

 

[marc]

Yall British will get what you deserve.
Yes if you can't get a job you are a slacker. That doesn't mean its the job you want or at the payscale you think you deserve. There are jobs out there. Look, if you were out of a job and your only choice was welfare or minimum wage, you lazy bastards would do welfare in a second. You liberals, brits and americans, there is opportunity at every doorstep, stop thinking that welfare is going to help those that can't find a job. Sure its hard, I did not get the silver spoon and I worked since 12, sometimes 2 jobs at a time. Between welfare and television, we as a whole are becoming lazy, ignorant, and self riqhteous. I wonder what the databases of the welfare system would show us? How many decades of lack luster effort to work is there?

Its supposed to be a crutch, temporary, to keep the house together for a month or so till you can get going again. But like all freebies, welfare is abused.

While on the subject, healthcare is not a right. It is not to be demanded of a government. It is not another business center in which govt needs to control. We demanded separation of church and state when the founding fathers of America formed our nation. We should continue that with business as well.

 

[marc]

One more thing that I was pissed about. My wife needed a sonogram to evaluate a tumor in her breast. The hospital said that it would cost 1200, 400 being the deductible and 800 paid by our insurance. She set the appt and then called back to on a lark to find out what it would cost if she did not have insurance. They told her $250! You don't want to know anymore of that story.

So what is the problem? insurance companies don't pay timely and are paying based on Medicare rates. Whats the solution? Well a lot has to do with the government require payments be made to hospitals and doctors in a more timely manner, both for Medicare and Insurance companies. This type of regulation will fix part of the system. The hospitals, doctors need to compete for business as the low cost clinics should be brought back for handling the minor maladies. Sponsored or tax incentive benefits of these low cost clinics can be viable with the streamlining of payments to them. A system of determination of pro bono work should be engaged which can be subsidized by mandate to both the healthcare business and the insurers.

So now you know what I would do if I were prez.
Vote for me! (LOL!)

 

[David Morton]

Marc,
Are you smoking something strange or popping pills ? :wacky:
I think I will not even bother to take issue with your comments
as I have a busy couple of days on the piss and drinking wine.
Have a nice New Year Marc.
Dave

 

[Nick]

Marc,

I think you missed a couple of lines off your post

"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population"

Merry Christmas Happy New Year!!!

 

[Jeff Young]

Just to clarify a few misstatements above.

1. Medicare is a federal program that provides basic health care coverage for the elderly. It does, for the most part, take care of a fair amount of treatment that is required by older folks.

2. Medicaid is a state program that provides very limited health care coverage assistance for the very poor. It has significant caps on the amount of benefits it provides and cannot be counted on to pay for most treatments.

3. Social Security disability insurance is a limited program we have to pay a limited amount of money (usually in the $1500 to $2,000 range) to those who (a) have worked for enough years to qualify and (b) who are disabled and no longer able to work.

You aren't going to get anywhere near the level of care from Medicaid that you would under a single payer system, nor will you have any real ability to do anything other than pay rent and basic expenses with SSI disability.