I want a divorce!

Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
Garry,

I totally agree with you about our space program, you are right about the loss of intelectual capital and the technocological inovation it has brought. That said the real question is why cant we afford to continue spending a fair amount of money on these programs. Blaming the current administration for the deficit, and tremendus expence of the two wars they inharited is disengenus. Would you rather the cuts be made to the military?
National-Debt-GDP.gif


Why the deficit is so large and cuts need to be made can clearly be seen in the above graph.

Garry, additionally you should let Veek explane how a relatively small PR campain has done more damage to NASA than the out of controll Republican spending since the end of the Carter administration.
 
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Pat

Supporter
Read more: Lost in space: Obama’s NASA program | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

Garry,

Garry, additionally you should let Veek explane(sic) how a relatively small PR campain (sic) has done more damage to NASA than the out of control (sic) Republican spending since the end of the Carter administration.
Garry,

Jim, LISTEN to the video,
Bolden appeared on the Al Jazeera television network and claimed that expanding international relations was among his top goals. He said that the president told him his foremost mission was to “find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science … and math and engineering.”

You've subjectively added "relatively small mission" in your subversion of the facts. "Foremost mission" and "relatively small" don't pass any reasonable logic test as being consistent. In other words, you've apparently made that part up. I provided the 80% reduction of staff here at Cape Kennedy and elsewhere (NASA numbers) and Holdens' video. You're the one out of context and reframing the data Jim. I think the psychological term here is "projection".

Jim, I realize now that you’re really kidding us all and please forgive me for thinking ill of you. I must admit your humor is a bit obscure but as soon as I saw the punch line “out of control (sic) Republican spending since the end of the Carter administration”. I knew you were joking. The House of Representatives originates the budget by law. It’s been in Democrat hands since the 2006 election. While I abhor the deficit spending of Bush and applauded (Candidate) Obama’s criticism, it is a bit disingenuous to take those deficits and more double them in one year don’t you think? After all Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. Obama would add another $1 trillion. Graphic courtesy of the Washington Post.

Out of curiosity, do you use a lot of shrink-wrap?
 

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Jim Craik

Lifetime Supporter
You've subjectively added "relatively small mission" in your subversion of the facts

Who is subverting facts, why do you keep miss quoting me? I not one time did I say "relatively small mission" (your quotation marks). What I said (three times) is "a relatively small PR campain".

Do you know what PR is, PR has been one of NASAs' foremost missions from the start. So Veek, how much do you think NASA would spend on a PR campain like this? Remember these people already work for NASA......

Do you think mabye the cost of a couple of shuttle missions?.... Not.

You continue to imply that a PR program is to blame for NASAs' funding problems.

The "news" service you quote THE DALY CALLER, begins its "news artical" with the words:

"The idiocy of the Obama administration continues to amaze us".

Veek does that sound fair and balanced to you? Did Walter Cronkite ever begin a news story like that?

Trying to debate with people who get their information from deeply bias liers, cant get quotes right or understand relative cost of NASA programs is a wate of time.

Veek, Al, in the future if you are looking to find the truth about anything, If a "news" source starts out with an incredably slanted first line you should stop and look for another source. Do you think you'll get both sides of a story? Do you even want both sides of a story?

Most people here are looking for a debate about what is happening, what do we want to happen and who is best able to help make it happen. Your incredably slanted, half truth, out of context, missleading rants are no longer of value or belivable.

Trying to debate with you is a total waste of time.

In the words of Edward R Murrow, "have you no scense of decency"? Please go away!
 
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Pat

Supporter
Jim, please re-read my post. I quoted Bolden's video (provided) the NASA layoffs (NASA data) and the Washington Post deficit data. You're the one that decided the PR campaign was some minor irrevelant excursion. I wish you were right and would love some hard data from you that they are not following the NASA priorities in the interview. But Bolden doesn't say that now does he?
But formost, the layoffs at NASA are very real and a tradegy.

I quoted the head of NASA, NASA and the Washington Post. You quoted yourself. I guess that puts me up 3-1.

And you didn't answer my question about shrink wrap ;)
 

Jeff Young

GT40s Supporter
How about we agree on some basic facts?

1. NASA's prime mission is not making peace with Muslims.

2. Bolden said some stupid things in that interview.

3. But perhaps he was just going a bit overboard in a discussion with Al Jazeera, an Islamic news source.

4. No one realy thinks, do they, that what Bolden meant is that now NASA is the US's outreach organization for Muslims?

C'mon guys. He said something dumb - and HARMLESS. Find something more substantive to complain about.
 

Pat

Supporter
Well said Jeff, I hope you're right.

Banter aside, the NASA layoffs are a terrible blunder. We are pissing away one of the few core competencies we have left as a nation. I'd encourage anyone that is like-minded to contact their representative and let them know that NASA hard science research must be funded if we are to prepare for future generations.
 
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“find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science … and math and engineering.”

We seem to have come a long way from the start of this thread which was the post of a letter by a John J. WallLaw Student and an American.

John stated “We'll keep the Bibles”, and “We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values”. Well John needs to start reading those bibles because I see few of the Christian values I was brought up with, in his letter.

It is always dangerous to talk for God, especially as I am no expert. However anyone who tells you to “sell all you have and give it to the poor”, “love your enemies as yourself” (I have difficulties with those) and can come up with the parable of the good Samaritan, if given a political label would surely be considered radical left wing.

I don’t want to sound sanctimonious, but when Jesus walked the earth he engaged with what at the time were considered the dregs of society, prostitutes tax collectors etc. In fact, John would probably consider them the equivalent of today’s, “welfare dwellers, food stamps, homeless, homeboys, hippies, druggies and illegal aliens” and the very groups John wants to get rid off from his land. I would also be interested in Jesus' views on “capitalism, and greedy corporations” the groups John wants to keep.

Finally, I am convinced if Jesus was around today he would be trying to “find a way to reach out to the Muslim world”.
 
Jim you are excused as it is late, and we are the only ones left :) In the UK, the unique thing is that we have a 3 party system, but it's always been "left right left right" etc etc So one party wins, goes that way and dismantles the other system. Later, the other party wins, dismantles the former system. You might say that it's better if one or the other stays in power long enough to follow through their policies and see it bear fruit. Unfortunately the opposite has been true and political parties, whether on the "left" or the "right" thathave enjoyed overall majorities, have been able to pass all kinds of daft legislation almost unnapposed. Let me give you an example: The last "Left Leaning" Government (well that's pretty much a joke because they mostly adopted all the Conservative ideology including the Champagne) during their reign of "terror" created 7,000 (yes) completely new criminal offences. So, basically, if you stick a squillion new laws on the statute book, no-one can accuse you of doing nothing.

Right, now, our (UK) current "unique" political oportunity is that a "centre left" Liberal Party has joined with the election winning (but not an overall majority) Conservative Party to form our current Government.

Some see it as a vote for the "Anti-Christ" but these are retrenched uber partisan views which have no place in solving our serious problems - itis also intersting and highly significant that the media have been trying to destroy this coalition since day one.

I see this highly unusual joining of Conservative (right) and Liberal Democrat (almost Left) as a fantastic new opportunity for all ends of the political spectrum to work together to facilitate the serious and very necessary problem solving process far more efficiently than a Militant Left or Partisan Right election result would have brought. Of course, the ousted Labour (Left) party are leaving no stone unturned in trying to discredit this alliance already. Well my boys, you really caught a cold didn't you?

Ironically, the defeated (and incompetant debt loving Left) have thus far proved far more vociferous in opposition than they ever were in (overall majority) power.

Vive le Coalition! At least give it time to work.. :)

Keith, apologies for the delay in reading this, I've been too busy working on my '40 :laugh:

I could not agree more with your sentiments. I am very optimistic regarding our new coalition. we MUST get rid of the old days of ping pong politics. Far Left and far Right policies rarely ever work and are destroyed very quickly by the next incumbent government. Having the Liberal forces water down the more Conservative leanings within our current coalition could be a precident for future prosperity, and the opportunity to create thoughtful policies and legislation based on a much more long term view.

The previous shower of sh1t did not give two hoots about where our country would be in 20 years (look at all the PFI's handed out to chummy insider corporations).

And I also agree with you regarding the media - they can't wait for the coalition to fail.

I for one will remain optimistic...

On the issue of our cousins over the pond bickering about the initial post by Al, I have to agree that whilst it may have been posted as a "Joke", I'm sorry to say that I think that stirring the pot was more likely. If I'm wrong, then Al, I owe you an apology, but I can only read it as I find it.

Now I'll shut up and carry on enjoying the flaming... :lurker:

Graham.
 
Graham,

Here is a US conservative take on the coalition government.

***Watch Dick on Monday, 7/12/10, on Hannity on FOX News at 9:00 PM ET. Thanks!***

THE END OF BRITAIN AS WE KNOW IT

By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published on DickMorris.com on July 12, 2010

The United Kingdom, the mother of all democracies, is about to change its political system in fundamental ways - changes which will spell disaster for the nation and for its politics. For those who love Britain, the news of these impending alterations can only cause angst and distress.

As a result of the inability of either the Conservatives or Labor to win a majority in Parliament in the recent elections, both parties had to bid for support from the Liberal/Social Democratic Party. The price the Conservatives ultimately paid was to agree to some of these changes and to refer others to the electorate for a referendum.

The changes that the parties have agreed to will transform the British government from a decisive decision-making machine into a morass of compromise, half-measures, and deadlock. Gridlock will be exported across the ocean to the UK.

Right now, the Prime Minister can dissolve Parliament anytime he wants forcing new elections. He is also obliged to order new elections if he loses a vote of confidence. This power holds the members of his parliamentary majority in check and restrains them from turning on their leaders since, should they succeed in a vote of no confidence, it would plunge them into the uncertainty of a new election which would imperil their own seats.

The new rules would bar the Prime Minister from dissolving Parliament during its five year term and vest that right in a 2/3 majority of parliament. In other words, Parliament would have to vote itself out of office - something likely never to happen.

So, under the new rules, if a government loses a vote over a major legislative item -- or fails to survive a no-confidence motion - it must resign, but there need not be new elections. Instead, Parliament can refuse to order new elections and just re-form a new government out of the old Parliament.

The effect of this rule change is likely to be that governments will rise and fall all the time since they may do so without forcing members to face new elections. Like in Italy, the new governments will just be formed by reshuffling the current Parliamentary deck into new combinations and coalitions.

Whereas now, if a government falls there is an election to decide the issue; under the new procedure, the deadlock could just go on and on without resolution.

More dangerous is the proposed new voting system that must be approved by a popular referendum. Rather than vote for one candidate for Parliament in each district, voters will be obliged to rank the candidates in their order of preference. If nobody gets a majority of first place rankings, the candidate with the least votes drops off and his second place votes are distributed among the other remaining candidates. The Liberal/Social Democrats are pushing this change in the hopes that there may never again be a Parliamentary majority for the Conservatives or Labor and that they will always hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.

And they are likely to achieve their objective if the new voting system passes. Most districts in the UK, as in the US, tend either to the left or to the right.

In a leftist district, for example, the Labor Party usually finishes first, the Liberal/Social Democrats second, and the Conservatives third. If the Labor candidate did not win a majority of first place votes on Election Day - and they frequently don't - the Conservative candidate will drop off and his second place votes will determine the winner. But what Conservative voter is going to name Labor as his second choice in the polarized politics of the U.K.? Most will name the Liberal/Social Dems as their second choice and that candidate will win the seat. In right wing districts, the same process will happen in reverse again to the benefit of the Liberal/Social Dems.

That means more hung parliaments, less decisive election results, and more mush compromise. Together, these changes will tend to paralyze the British government, substituting muddled, mushy compromise for decisive and bold action. We will miss the old United Kingdom.

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Keith

Moderator
The "old" United Kingdom as they put it, died on the battlefields of WWI in their thousands and thousands.

End of...

I see those guys bring to the table about as much understanding of the UK political system as they exhibited about Vietnam & Afghanistan.

The truth is, no-one knows where we are going. Ethnic minorities as a group, currently at 8% of population will rise to 20% of population in 40 years. That will bring a whole new dynamic to the situation.

The same can be said for the USA - fact is, Western style democracy had better reinvent itself t'out suite 'cos it's going backwards from where I stand - and everybody has a role to play in that process and should be enagaged at whichever point of the political spectrum they inhabit. That's why this coalition gives us an opportunity never before experienced (except in war time - which is pretty much where we are now) as long as we grasp it and make it work for us.

Put it this way, in the pigeon holed ideology of modern politics, we now have a Government that actually represents more people than ever before. Sure, there are bound to be compromises, but we're good at that.

Dick & Eileen are merely trotting out the type of rhetorical dogma which has supressed political thinking of the British masses for many years to the point that when anyone postulates a political thought in public these days, everyones else's eyes glaze over.

I say again, "Vive le Coalition!"
 
Keith, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I can see the Lib Dems being in government now forever, as they will jump from side to side, depending on who wins.

As to coalition governments, Romano Prodi's last government fell after 9 months because of internal squabbling by the extreme left wing of the coalition.

I guess it depends on how well the parties get along.
 

Keith

Moderator
Agreed but in many areas Lib/Dems and Conservative are quite close. Italy may not be the best possible example to use as I would hazard a guess that there are probably 20 or so minority parties involved in the Italian coalition govt. which is probably THE worst advert for the Proportional Representation voting system ever devised, and probably include porn stars, relatives of Mussolini and the odd Capo Regime. However, whatever the Italians do - they still have the best food and the best women (until 30 :))

In fact, I think I may be right in assuming that Italy have had at least one new Government every year since the end of WWII.
 
Keith, you are not so far wrong on Italy's political system, and the number of minority parties involved. If I remember the statistic correctly, it takes about 1 or 2% vote in the election to become a party and get money from the state to operate. Hence under current legislation, there is no need to consolidate into bigger parties.

You are right about the best food and their women can still be pretty hot even over 50 !!!
 
Keith, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I can see the Lib Dems being in government now forever, as they will jump from side to side, depending on who wins.

.


It will make a change to jumping from Labour to Conservative and back again, and look where that has got us.

I'm with Keith, for years the electorate have been pleading with politicians from all sides to work together for the common good. Well we have that now and it's got to work.
 
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Pat

Supporter
OP Ed in the Wall Street Journal by Brian Riedl

President Obama and congressional Democrats are blaming their trillion-dollar budget deficits on the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003. Letting these tax cuts expire is their answer. Yet the data flatly contradict this "tax cuts caused the deficits" narrative. Consider the three most persistent myths:
• The Bush tax cuts wiped out last decade's budget surpluses. Sen. John Kerry (D., Mass.), for example, has long blamed the tax cuts for having "taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see." That $5.6 trillion surplus never existed. It was a projection by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) in January 2001 to cover the next decade. It assumed that late-1990s economic growth and the stock-market bubble (which had already peaked) would continue forever and generate record-high tax revenues. It assumed no recessions, no terrorist attacks, no wars, no natural disasters, and that all discretionary spending would fall to 1930s levels.
The projected $5.6 trillion surplus between 2002 and 2011 will more likely be a $6.1 trillion deficit through September 2011. So what was the cause of this dizzying, $11.7 trillion swing? I've analyzed CBO's 28 subsequent budget baseline updates since January 2001. These updates reveal that the much-maligned Bush tax cuts, at $1.7 trillion, caused just 14% of the swing from projected surpluses to actual deficits (and that is according to a "static" analysis, excluding any revenues recovered from faster economic growth induced by the cuts).
The bulk of the swing resulted from economic and technical revisions (33%), other new spending (32%), net interest on the debt (12%), the 2009 stimulus (6%) and other tax cuts (3%). Specifically, the tax cuts for those earning more than $250,000 are responsible for just 4% of the swing. If there were no Bush tax cuts, runaway spending and economic factors would have guaranteed more than $4 trillion in deficits over the decade and kept the budget in deficit every year except 2007.
• The next decade's deficits are the result of the previous administration's profligacy. Mr. Obama asserted in his January State of the Union Address that by the time he took office, "we had a one-year deficit of over $1 trillion and projected deficits of $8 trillion over the next decade. Most of this was the result of not paying for two wars, two tax cuts, and an expensive prescription drug program."
In short, it's all President Bush's fault. But Mr. Obama's assertion fails on three grounds.
First, the wars, tax cuts and the prescription drug program were implemented in the early 2000s, yet by 2007 the deficit stood at only $161 billion. How could these stable policies have suddenly caused trillion-dollar deficits beginning in 2009? (Obviously what happened was collapsing revenues from the recession along with stimulus spending.)
Second, the president's $8 trillion figure minimizes the problem. Recent CBO data indicate a 10-year baseline deficit closer to $13 trillion if Washington maintains today's tax-and-spend policies—whereby discretionary spending grows with the economy, war spending winds down, ObamaCare is implemented, and Congress extends all the Bush tax cuts, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) patch, and the Medicare "doc fix" (i.e., no reimbursement cuts).
Under this realistic baseline, the 10-year cost of extending the Bush tax cuts ($3.2 trillion), the Medicare drug entitlement ($1 trillion), and Iraq and Afghanistan spending ($515 billion) add up to $4.7 trillion. That's approximately one-third of the $13 trillion in baseline deficits—far from the majority the president claims.

Third and most importantly, the White House methodology is arbitrary. With Washington set to tax $33 trillion and spend $46 trillion over the next decade, how does one determine which policies "caused" the $13 trillion deficit? Mr. Obama could have just as easily singled out Social Security ($9.2 trillion over 10 years), antipoverty programs ($7 trillion), other Medicare spending ($5.4 trillion), net interest on the debt ($6.1 trillion), or nondefense discretionary spending ($7.5 trillion).
There's no legitimate reason to single out the $4.7 trillion in tax cuts, war funding and the Medicare drug entitlement. A better methodology would focus on which programs are expanding and pushing the next decade's deficit up.

• Declining revenues are driving future deficits. The fact is that rapidly increasing spending will cause 100% of rising long-term deficits. Over the past 50 years, tax revenues have deviated little from their 18% of gross domestic product (GDP) average. Despite a temporary recession-induced dip, CBO projects that even if all Bush tax cuts are extended and the AMT is patched, tax revenues will rebound to 18.2% of GDP by 2020—slightly above the historical average. They will continue growing afterwards.
Spending—which has averaged 20.3% of GDP over the past 50 years—won't remain as stable. Using the budget baseline deficit of $13 trillion for the next decade as described above, CBO figures show spending surging to a peacetime record 26.5% of GDP by 2020 and also rising steeply thereafter.
Putting this together, the budget deficit, historically 2.3% of GDP, is projected to leap to 8.3% of GDP by 2020 under current policies. This will result from Washington taxing at 0.2% of GDP above the historical average but spending 6.2% above its historical average.
Entitlements and other obligations are driving the deficits. Specifically, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and net interest costs are projected to rise by 5.4% of GDP between 2008 and 2020. The Bush tax cuts are a convenient scapegoat for past and future budget woes. But it is the dramatic upward arc of federal spending that is the root of the problem.

And now a word from the Jacobin members of the forum ;)
 
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