Roaring Forties #95 - 4.6 quadcam

[Craig White]

Yeah, that failure to pass ADR 79/00 on last test session would make it's initial test results void as in it's current state it does not pass.

What a bugger.

At least I'm the cause of my car not being back on the road by now. No one to blame but me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tim, let's hope it's on the road soon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

[ QUOTE ]
Peter, the thing that i'm really having trouble dealing with, is that the car passed 79/00 8 weeks ago. From there it SHOULD have gone straight to Ford for the certification test, and i would have had the car by now! But It was decided by RF (and this decision would be of NO benefit to me, the owner of the car) to remove the pre-cats from the extractors, and see if it passes with that (cheaper for future cars) configuration. I was led to believe that tihs would be done in a day or two, and no time would be lost. But it took them 8 WEEKS to do it and of course , now it has failed. So we've made bugger all progress, and 8 weeks have sailed by. The painter can't finish the car in the time left, so....... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
As always poor communication seems to be the problem here.
Obviously Robert should have ensured that he had the car booked for the test and given Tim the exact date."a day or two" turning into eight weeks would piss anyone off. If you want to keep the customer happy tell him the facts. Not what you think he wants to hear.

 

[Mike]

[ QUOTE ]

As always poor communication seems to be the problem here.
Obviously Robert should have ensured that he had the car booked for the test and given Tim the exact date."a day or two" turning into eight weeks would piss anyone off. If you want to keep the customer happy tell him the facts. Not what you think he wants to hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would seem that poor communication is becoming the standard for roaring forties these days. Witness the turnkey delay situation that still isn't sorted out according to owners with cars on order. I'm told they are good cars but as someone looking I'm concerned about timely delivery.

 

[Mitch D]

Rob - as you are 'someone looking', I fully recommend you do your own due dilegence before you buy. However, I have to say, there are only a small number of negative comments vis-a-vis 'communication from RF(and other manufacturers if you follow this forum), so I'd caution you to read the negative comments carefully. Let's be honest, ALL of the GT replica manufacturers are dealing with VERY SMALL PRODUCTION numbers, and I have NEVER seen one of the manufacturers "promise" specific delivery dates. They likely give everyone "estimated" delivery dates. But it seems some of the guys that plunk down a few $ suddenly become terribly impatient and they seem to expect magic to happen: perfect quality, delivery based on the most optimistic dates estimated, bargain price, instant feedback from the factory, etc.

Read the top of this thread again - it states very clearly, "This car is Roaring forties' first 4.6 Cobra engined car".

Now if you don't understand that this may lead to potential delays, then perhaps you shouldn't be in the market for a small production, hand-built, super-car-replica. If you think emissions requirements in the US are a pain, just read around the forum about all the gripes of the guys in Australia.

I apologize for venting, but I've grown weary of some of the negative feedback lately. I believe you'll find MANY MORE satisfied customers then dis-satisfied for ALL of the current manufacturers. Because you know what, if a manufacturer was really that bad, then they'd likely be out of business.

I've been a management consultant for 10 years, so I make my living based on delivering "service", and good business is not always "all about customer service". Sometimes the customer is an ass and doesn't deserve good service. Build a good product and there will be customers - do it well and your business will prosper.

Enough of my lecturing - now back to enjoying the MANY fine posts on this fabulous forum!

Mitch

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Mitch, I agree with most of what you say, but I repeat, telling the customer the facts, rather than what you think they want to hear. I think is good advice, not negativity.
If Robert or one of his staff told Tim the test would be done in a couple of days, knowing that it would take about eight weeks, then that is a bad call and will piss people off.
Now none of us were there, so we dont know what was actually said, or in what context. However I am in business and I do know if you tell a customer it will take one week and it takes three, they are not happy. Tell them it will take four weeks and do it in three, they are estatic.Strange; Its the same three weeks.

 

[Ross Nicol]

There are generally promises made before sale closure too that seem to be forgotten by the manufacturer.My advice is before you put any money down, go over the detail and get it in writing and signed.I accepted a chassis that wasn't in the colour I ordered.That's just one example.I wouldn't be surprised if Tim was told it would go straight through the ADR test no problem.The sort of throw away lines that extract the money from your pocket.This whole thing smells a bit and surely as Pete says eight weeks is not a couple of days.Sounds like somebody doesn't care enough about Tim.I'll place a bet that the majority or all of the money has been paid
Ross

 

[Robert Logan]

Tim,

Well I have just come off the phone with my staff and previous to that I was on the phone with Tim. It is just after SEVEN in the morning in Cape Town.

My staff have assured me that the car WILL be finished by Christmas.

Regarding the tests at Toyota and a lack of a test certificate I must fully explain the situation and how Roaring Forties are conducting the test and much more importantly WHY.

As most of you are aware the regulations in Australia are hard but maybe you are not fully aware how hard and how some of Australia's manufacturers and more importantly importers of cars are ruining it for the rest of us. All new cars and kit cars are classed as that must comply with many standards including safety standards but most difficult are the evaporative and emmissions standards.

Firstly let me try to explain what the "testers" class as an engine. It is EVERYTHING between the imput point for fuel to the output point of any gasses. That means that the fuel system includes the fuel tank, the carbon canisters and ALL the plumbing. They also include ALL the engine which takes into consideration the inlet manifold and ALL the connections, the ECU and the map used to run the engine, the exhaust system and how many and where the cats are positioned. Because the tests are run at specific velocities than the gearbox ratios and the size of the wheels and tyres must also be considered. I supose that the easiest thing to say is that if ANYTHING is changed than the test certificate is invalidated.

So how does this affect the us the kit car buyer or the manufacturer. Well the manufacturer can put his head in the sand and hope those horrible men from the department of transport go away or we can take it seriously. Those manufacturers that install an engine into a kit car and change ANYTHING that I have listed above should (read MUST) conduct FULL evaporative and emmissions tests. The days for hiding and hoping that the regulators will still turn a blind eye and allow some things to 'slip through the cracks' is almost over and the authorities are getting much more strict. A Cobra running a new 4.6 liter or 5.4 liter Ford engine with all the correct inlet manifolds and computer only goes half way there. You need to have the correct gearbox, the correct wheels, the correct exhaust system and the correct fueling system. If any of those are changed than the original test certificate from FORD is invalid and the Cobra should not be allowed to be registered.

The problem originated with the Rot Rod people when numereous Hot Rods were registered with OUTRAGEOUS engine configurations and the authorities felt that their noses were being rubbed in it. The problem was further exasibated when an other Hot Rod was involved in an accident and the new owner (not builder) of the Hot Ron with engineers report in hand, sued the NSW Road Traffic Authority for allowing a car to be registered that did not fulfill the safety requirements. The guy won the case and since that date it has been almost imposible to register a kit car in NSW (Sydney). For one I believe that it has been a long time comming.

The latest thing that is giving the authorities the s****s is what are called "gray imports". These are imported secondhand cars from places like Hong Kong. Some of these cars, although similar to Australian cars, have significent differences and still they are being allowed to be registered but these are under full investigation as I write these words. I assure you all that it is only a matter of time before the kit car industry becomes more aware of this as we register our cars in the same way that the "gray imports" are registered.

I have been aware of this for many years and have tried to comply with the law but this is difficult because of how hard it is to get GOOD information. As an engineer I can understand much but as a manufacturer I had to take responsibility. This I have done and I am happy to say that we are doing things correctly. Just before I left to come to South Africa (the previoue day) I had a meeting with the head of the department in Victoria Roads to update him on what we are doing and to get his advise and confirmation on our progress. My registering engineer and my chief engineer work very closely together and with the staff of Toyota to ensure that we are FULLY complient. This process is unfortunately long winded as it is our first car but I have always assured Tim that his car will be registered and more importantly it will stay registered and not be subject to a recall and then be UNABLE to pass a test.

I am sorry to bring this to the attention of you all. I believe that my company is doing EXACTLY the correct thing regarding the registration of this car and it has taken a very long time but I assure it is not because we are idle. Nothing could be further from the trueth, I have two staff working overtime on this car.

What I would like to say to you all in Australia, the days of registering a car that is "dodgy" are past. Be careful of the aftermarket changes such as turbos etc. and be safe.

For those sturring the pot, a little knowledge is often dangerous !!!!!!!

Best wishes,

Robert

 

[John B]

And for those of us who just want information and not here complants when information is given.



No Knowlege is leathel to corperations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Tim,
In your heart do you honestly feel that RF or Robert is deliberatly trying to prevent your car from being completed properly? I sure hope this is not the case. It sounds to me like Robert maybe the only replica manyfacturer that cares enough to try and get a car approved through ADR's. Is there any other replica manufacturers in Australia that is doing what Roaring Forties is? I hope so. Because it sounds to me like your government is trying to rid the hobby. Here stands a company doing what they can to keep a small number of enthusiast happy and all I see is negativity from them. Possibly the tall poppy syndrome at work... I would hope that enthusiast would rally the cause and support these companies that spend thousands of dollars just to R&D a car to pass so that future sales could prospure and help grow your hobby.
But it is as they say "One Auh Sh!t is worth a thousand attaboys. Good news travels like a snail and bad news travel like a wild fire.
Something like this can never be solved over the forum. What happened needs to be resolved between the parties involved and not onto a forum where sides will be taken.
Most all of these manufacturers today are cottage industries. They are not like FOMOCO or GMC. Superformance is probably the largest in this industry of replicas. They don't post here or participate and I can almost understand why.

Hersh

 

[Mike Dozier]

Someone will have to explain to me why a gearbox or wheel change would affect an emissions test by any significant amount.

I understand that changing engine speed via gears or
wheel/tire size could increase emissions slightly...but so what.
You change engine speed each time you nail the go pedal.
Makes no sense to me.

MikeD

 

[John B]

Hershal,
I think you missed the point. The point that ross was making is that what is said at the time of the sale closure is not followed through once you have our money. Let me give you and EX. When a customer asked how long for delivery,and the sales person states 9 months...You get the sale Via because you have a good product promissed in a decent amount of time. Now, as time passes with anticipation of recieving your car and than, all of a sudden, it is going to be a year/or even two years with no updates by the conmpany. People tend to get pissed off especially if they did alot of preperation only to be dissapointed. Yes! the the sales person now states "IF YOU NOT HAPPY, TAKE YOU MONEY BACK" WHAT!... after anticipation of a year or 2 only to be told such a thing. It tends to have negitive feedback by the customer and than to further insult, to only here a lot of tap dancing around reasons for such long delays. So what ross is trying to say is that the sales of such special cars require special considerations for the customer. Lets try not to live up the car salesman images of tell the customer what he wants to here to get the sale.. If sales people want to mislead, go sell Chevys. At lest than no one will ridicule.

Best regards
Oliver

 

[Craig White]

Thanks for the detailed update Robert, some interesting & informative background info into why regulations are what they are today.

I'm not going to make any comments on delays Tim is facing, except I feel for you Tim and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Hersch, you don't seriously think that Robert is the only replica manufacturer getting cars ADR approved. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Really the big question is why can't the many replica manufacturers co-operate and combine resources to make complying with ADR's & individual state rules in Aus a straight forward process. I'm a little surprised at what Superformance can get complied in their Cobra's here...so there must be ways and means.

 

[Craig White]

One thing Robert didn't clearly explain, is that once the vehicle is registered, you can of course make changes. It's just those changes need to comply with the rules. Same as for any other vehicle of the same year/ADR compliance level.

Different states have different rules in this regard.

 

[Ross Nicol]

Guys- That previous post of mine has hit a nerve but it started out with generic advice that I would
give to anyone considering the purchase of a car/kit from any of the manufacturers.After all we are talking about large amounts of money and long lead times prior to delivery.The long lead time being the reason for the written order and signature.Of course Tim would have been made aware of possible delays due to bureaucracy but the delay he has reported appears to be due to inaction.I make no apology for my reflection on sales and the tactics of sales people.We (yes I include myself) use a lot of tactics to close a sale, including knocking competitors and/or their products,making promises
(I try to keep mine) that can be forgotten (sometimes conveniently).Now what I've just pointed out is not specific to Roaring Forties just reality.I personally have had a rocky relationship with Robert but I've never doubted his Honesty, or Passion for these cars.
Regards Ross

 

[Robert Logan]

Mike,

The changiong of a gearbox RATIOS or a Diff ratio or wheel size all would change the revs for the tested speed. Both Holden (Chev) and Ford in Australia have over the last four years or so introduced a six speed manual gearbox and five speed automatic gearboxes. This has been specifically introduced to lower the revs at the highest speeds at the test. This is the sort of information that I speek about as being difficult to get. We are NOW able to talk openly with our friends in Toyota and Ford and even Holden regarding such matters.

Craig,

I do not for a minute think that I am the only manufacturer doing the work on emmissions. I am sure most of the manufacturers are doing some work. I would fully support a "Specialist Car Manufacturers Association of Australia" being formed to liease with the government bodies to make sure that we were all doing the right thing. I have spoken at length regarding this with Vic Roads but they insist that we get such information from our Registered Engineers.
Craig please also note that the 'after change' ie. the fitting of aftermarket goodies is the main area of concern with the registering authorities.

Ross,

Thank you for your kind words.

Best wishes,

Robert

 

[Craig White]

Thanks for reply Robert. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I was actually having a bit of fun with Hersch's comments.

I certainly don't envy your position and the hurdles you have to go through here. It's easy on this forum to talk about the problems and solutions, but as we know, very difficult to implement.

I can understand Vic Roads and their worry about modifications. But how many performance Ford's, Holden's etc get illegally modified after purchase? The amount would absolutely dwarf the number of modified replica's on the roads. I just wonder sometimes if they go for the smaller players, as they are an easier target.

And sorry Tim for hijacking your thread. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Geeeeez! Go on hloiday few a few day and...............
Will post detailed relpy when i get a minute.

 

I've been away for a few days cooling my heels at the beach.
I want to start by making an unreserved apology to Robert and his Staff. I have had a very stressful couple of months on the work front, coupled with the obvious waiting for the GT40. I let all this get the better of me and vented my frustrations in a place where i should not have, the Forum. I should buy myself a punching bag or something.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
So to Robert, Rob Sharples and crew, i'm sorry.
I have had long and fruitful chats with both Roberts over the weekend, and am satisfied that work is progressing. I have come to terms with the fact that i will get my car when it is good and ready, and that i will be happy with it. The testing process has been a very trying time for RF, with problems beyond their control getting in the way of smooth progress. If i don't get it by Christmas, then so be it. If RF don't want to "rush" the job, then i understand completely.
I shall pull my head in now, and let it all happen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I'm glad for you that you have got it sorted Tim, and you and Robert are now on the same page. IMHO this Forum is the perfect place to vent your frustration, provided that people are telling the truth and not saying anything defamatory.
It gives everyone an insight into your issues and how the supplier reacts to them. All good healthy stuff. My thoughts
anyway.

 

[Peter Delaney]

Robert L,

Re your comment "I have been aware of this for many years and have tried to comply with the law but this is difficult because of how hard it is to get GOOD information" in your post of 10-11-05 :

I could not agree more - we seem to have to live in a sea of rumours & innuendo. For the life of me, I just cannot understand why the various State bodies don't/can't simply agree on a sensible rolling set of rules in terms of their interpretations of the ADR's, and then publish them.

When I started my quest for rego, I rang the RTA (thinking, naturally, that they would be able to tell me what was required). No way - in what I think is an abysmal abbrogation of responsibility, they told me to contact a "certified engineer" for that info - breath-takingly stupid ! WE pay these bureaucrats' salaries to make & administer rules, & all they do is distance themselves from us by sending confusing "bulletins" about their interpretation of the ADR's out to the certified engineers (who then re-interpret them as best they can). All this on a State-by-State basis, they are not even setting the actual ADR's - mindless !

There is no excuse for not having a national standard set of rules for kit cars / low volume / hot-rods, etc. This national standard should recognise a few simple home-truths about our industry :

- We do not have the resources of Holden/Ford, etc to do crash tests.

- We constitute such a microscopic proportion of the cars on the road, so should be given special consideration regarding emmissions standards. This is not simply pleading for an "easy ride", but a recognition that ICV builders often take up to 5-7 years to complete their cars, so planning for what "might be required" that far in advance is an impossibility. A sensibly defined uniform national "rolling window of opportunity" (min 5 years) for engines is required. I am ok with stock engine / stock ECU, but beyond that is silly and impractical (other than maybe "similar CAT's").

- The vast majority of us are "mature" people who have put our hearts & souls (not to mention our wallets) into our cars. We are not reckless drivers on the road like the 22 year-old brigade with their $5000 hopped-up Japanese buzz-boxes. The Insurance industry clearly recognises this distinction, so why can't the bureaucrats ?

- None of us would have any problem with sensible "safety requirements" - chassis torsion/beaming tests, seat belts, brakes, lights, wipers - as long as they were "sensible" (ie, maybe some concessions for replica cars whose essential design did not allow for headlights which are 4ft off the ground) !

End of rant & rave for the moment .... !!

BUT - "divide & conquer" - this is what the bureacrats are doing (though I doubt they have the wit to realise it - they just think that if they make it all harder & harder, we'll all just go away - more administration (=higher pay for supervising more staff, etc) & less actual work).

In numbers, there is strength - any ideas on what we can ALL do to stop the rot ? I would hate to think that our kids will not have the same opportunities as we had to "follow our passion".

Kind Regards,

Peter D.