1uzfe to audi 012

justinswidebody · Oct 8, 2008

I am in the middle of almost completing a 1uzfe (Lexus v8) to the audi 012 (porsche G86) transmission adapter plate. I have a friend who owns his own cnc machine and we were wondering how much interest there would be for this product. After completing the adapter plate, I will have a flywheel spacer adapter created to bolt up a factory audi flywheel with factory pressure plate and clutch. The flex plate for the 1uzfe will still be used for the starter to start the motor. Any advise or critisism will be appreciated. (Note I am not trying to sell a product, Just wondering if there is a demand for this to see if its worth making a product.)

Thanks for all input

Justin

Doug68 · Oct 9, 2008

Hi Justin,

I am in the middle of doing the exact same thing, I'm intending to do a custom flywheel with a complete A6 V6 clutch.

How much does the stock Audi flywheel weigh? My www research says approx 38lb?

In my design the face of the flywheel ends up approx 65mm from the bolt face on the crank. There is some concern that this ammount of offset is getting big and will place undue loads on the (really strong :thumbsup

crank. If you go the route you describe the CG of the flywheel will be considerably further from the end of the crank than using a custom "witches hat" type shape for the flywheel.

The CAD system is currently showing the mass on my flywheel at just over 5kg as a comparrision to the stock one.

justinswidebody · Oct 9, 2008

Hey Doug,

I have been following your build, and was waiting to see you finish it, and was going to ask you if you could sell me an adapter in the near future. However i want to get a move on, on my project. Anyways, I was planning on buying an audi light weight flywheel, I think they weigh somewhere around 16lbs. Then I was going to use a performance clutch probably from the 2.7tt a4? motor. Is there any proof on this type of offset hurting the crank? I would assume if everything was ballanced properly this issue wouldn't happen. If you could explain more to me about the subject I would greatly appreciate it. I would hate to loose a motor due to that. It just seems like the easiest thing to do. So far I have my alluminum plate for the project and I made an input shaft for the transmission that fits perfectly into the 1uzfe to align them together perfectly. So the plan for now is to take the motor, tilt it on its pulley side and place the transmission on top of it, and trace everything out. Then take to my cnc guy and have him finish it and trace it all out so he can have the file.

Justin

Doug68 · Oct 9, 2008

Yeah the simple fact is that although the rotating assemby may be balanced, once its running vibration from the clutch and driveline will act to shake the whole thing.
Esimating those loads is beyod me at the moment so whether it turns into a practical issue for the crank is something only time will tell I think as this stage.

The 2.7TT had a dual mass flywheel and the bolting - clutch face is not flat as a result, this is why I went for the A6 2.8 unit. I assume the aftermarket flywheel you are looking at is not dual mass and has no other odd balance characteristicts.

How close is the bolting on the crank between the Audi flywheel? You would end up with very long bolts holding on the flywheel if they need to go through the whole setup. Do ARP or someone else make soemthing suitable? These need to be a very high strength - quality bolt for this application.

wment · Oct 12, 2008

It looks like there are several of us doing similar things for the 012 trans. My engine of choice is the small block Ford. I have gotten all the bolt locations set for the adapter plate but am working on the plate thickness and getting the flywheel and pressure plate finger dimensions correct so the Audi throw-out fork will work correctly.

Justin, keep in mind that alignment dowels are sold that can change the alignment of the bellhousings by as little as .007" so tracing bolt holes may not be very accurate.
Lakewood 15950 - Lakewood Bellhousing Dowel Pins - JEGS

Does anyone know how critical this actually is???

Doug68 · Oct 12, 2008

Hi wayne,

You appear to be at the same point I am. When I get home from the trip I'm on at the moment I'll be getting into measuring the setup of the pressure plate, thrust bearing ect. I'll post the results when I get that sorted. I'm using a clutch from an 2.8L Audi (A6), at the moment I'm guessing that going with the splines on the friction plate just fully engaged is the way to go.

advancedautomotion · Oct 14, 2008

The same adapter plate can be used for just about any dual bolt pattern Audi gearbox, 012, 01E, 01X, and probably the newest iteration as well. If you select the proper bolt holes, it will also fit the 016.

The 012 BTW is a pretty weak gearbox. Gears are rather slim in width and the main and output shafts are supported by a single bearing at each end. A modified audi 1.8 turbo can create enough torque to strip out 3rd gear.

Doug68 · Oct 25, 2008

The attached picture shows the measurements I took tonight on my 012.

With the measurements as shown and the A6 clutch used there would be 2mm clearance between the thrust bearing and the spring fingers in their fully extended position. This would occur in the fully worn state for the clutch plate.

I've yet to determine how much clutch fork movement is needed to disengage the clutch. But the next thing is to determine that there's enough movement in the thrust bearing to disengage the clutch in the brand new condition.

All of the above is assumeing that the friction plate is only just fully engaged on the input shaft when new.

There is the possibility of adjusting out the bottom pivot point for the lever that operates the thrust bearing, by default it protrudes 20mm this could be packed out further if required by putting washers under it. But there's no way to get at it with the transmission attached to the engine, so that would need to be right bore it was all dropped in to the car.

BoxerSix · Oct 26, 2008

Doug68 said:
The attached picture shows the measurements I took tonight on my 012.

With the measurements as shown and the A6 clutch used there would be 2mm clearance between the thrust bearing and the spring fingers in their fully extended position. This would occur in the fully worn state for the clutch plate.

I've yet to determine how much clutch fork movement is needed to disengage the clutch. But the next thing is to determine that there's enough movement in the thrust bearing to disengage the clutch in the brand new condition.

All of the above is assuming that the friction plate is only just fully engaged on the input shaft when new.

There is the possibility of adjusting out the bottom pivot point for the lever that operates the thrust bearing, by default it protrudes 20mm this could be packed out further if required by putting washers under it. But there's no way to get at it with the transmission attached to the engine, so that would need to be right bore it was all dropped in to the car.

Push type clutch diaphram??.......take a new clutch/FW assembly(pressure plate bolts torqued and disk centered) and support it in a hydro-press. using a TOB as the interference point, apply pressure. Use a mic or dial indicator to determine diaphram travel(dial indicator with magnetic holder is best....must be perfectly vertical of TOB surface to measure proper distance moved) Use a screwdriver to lightly apply side pressure to the disk via any one of the discharge slots on the side of the pressure plate. Slowly keep applying pressure until the disk releases to the side. Note the amount of travel applied to diaphram, factor in additional ~ .020" there for proper release clearance.

Then determine leverage ratio of the fork itself and convert travel distance for slave cylinder

Pull type clutches(Subaru Sti, Porsche) are a bit more difficult to setup in this manner but follow the same principle for determining travel.

Really useless to do on anything other than brand new FW and clutch assembly.

Hope that helps....

Doug68 · Oct 26, 2008

BoxerSix said:
Push type clutch diaphram??.......take a new clutch/FW assembly(pressure plate bolts torqued and disk centered) and support it in a hydro-press. using a TOB as the interference point, apply pressure. Use a mic or dial indicator to determine diaphram travel(dial indicator with magnetic holder is best....must be perfectly vertical of TOB surface to measure proper distance moved) Use a screwdriver to lightly apply side pressure to the disk via any one of the discharge slots on the side of the pressure plate. Slowly keep applying pressure until the disk releases to the side. Note the amount of travel applied to diaphram, factor in additional ~ .020" there for proper release clearance.

Then determine leverage ratio of the fork itself and convert travel distance for slave cylinder

Pull type clutches(Subaru Sti, Porsche) are a bit more difficult to setup in this manner but follow the same principle for determining travel.

Really useless to do on anything other than brand new FW and clutch assembly.

Hope that helps....

Sounds like a great plan except I don't know what TOB stands for?

The 0.020" (~0.5mm) was the number I'd been worrying about, my uneducated guess had come up with 2mm. So thanks for that.

jac mac · Oct 26, 2008

TOB---Throw out bearing, --- release bearing ---thrust bearing.

Doug68 · Oct 26, 2008

Ah soooo....

superflyte · Oct 26, 2008

Hey Doug, a good mate of mine owns a performance clutch business in Osborne Park. If you're ever up that way, you should call in with what you've got and have it tested.

BoxerSix · Oct 26, 2008

Doug68 said:
Sounds like a great plan except I don't know what TOB stands for?

The 0.020" (~0.5mm) was the number I'd been worrying about, my uneducated guess had come up with 2mm. So thanks for that.

Oppps, sorry Doug. TOB = Throw out bearing like others said.

I just want to clarify something because I re-read your other post and I think I confused you with the dimension I was giving.

The .020" additional factor is a rough dimension that I add in to the total diaphram spring finger travel to allow some float clearance for the disk between the friction surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate when the clutch is in the disengaged position.

Example: Say when you setup your particular clutch in the press and do the procedure I mentioned above and the disk releases freely when you have compressed the diaphram springs 1". Take that 1" measurement and add in an additional .020". Some factor in more clearance for this on a street type organic clutch setup for more longevity(upwards of .06-.08") This gives the disk enough room to freely spin between the friction surfaces w/o binding or dragging which would cause excessive heat and wear, however not so much as to cause a bunch of clutch chatter on engaging. Carbon or semi metallic race clutches grip better with more heat, but also chatter more as well thus the smaller .020" factor.

From your original post it looks like you're wondering what amount of clearance is necessary between the diaphram spring fingers and the throw out bearing pressure race when in a fully engaged position(no pressure on clutch pedal)??? Typically I like to have the TOB to lightly touch the springs, as this keep the rattling noise down and "feel" of the clutch right where it should be. Any sort of gap between the two said components and the clutch will feel smushy at first pressure until the TOB contacts the clutch diaphram.

(Another example, but for pull type clutches(porsche, sti)....a light spring is used on the clutch fork itself to provide slight drawback pressure. It's typically positioned in the vicinity of the slave cylinder on the outside of the bell housing. This keeps contact pressure of the clutch fork fingers into the throw out bearing lock tabs, but also provides some pullback tension of the throw out bearing against the wedge collar........the component in a pull type clutch diaphram that affixes the TOB to the clutch and pulls against the diaphram springs)

Hope that helps clarify a few things for you

Doug68 · Oct 26, 2008

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ther; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; mso-header-margin:35.4pt; mso-footer-margin:35.4pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> Hi Adam,

Thanks for the above that clarifies the issues a lot.

I guess the problem I have is essentially a simple one and as usual I expect I'm over complicating the solution.

I'm using a stock Audi A6 (V6) clutch and slave cylinder in an Audi 012 (Boxster) transmission.

Due to wanting to keep the offset on the custom flywheel I need to get made to a minimum, I plan to have the friction plate only just fully engaged on the input shaft.
The problem then is to make sure that I will have enough movement left in the slave cylinder to disengage the clutch in its brand new condition (when the fingers will need to go in the furthest).

Having thought on the issue some more I'm sure that there will have to be enough movement as I'm basically using all Audi parts that were meant to go together in the first place and if not moving out the lower pivot point on the of the TOB actuating lever will fix any issue that comes up.

The Audi slave cylinder has a surprisingly strong spring in it that will keep the TOB against the spring fingers, so that will deal making sure that there is no gap there.
Hi Troy,
Thanks for the offer I think I will take that up once the flywheel is made. We’re moving house in a couple of weeks so I be just up the road from you then. We might actually get to meet ha ha.

andys · Oct 27, 2008

Doug,

I took a slightly different approach to the problem by adding a machined spacer behind the TOB in order to get the travel in the right place relative to the slave's available travel and fork position. I forget exactly what the 012 TOB assembly looks like, but I think it has the TOB and plastic retainer held by a spring clip or (?). The below photo is what I did on my 01E; If you look carefully, you'll see the machined aluminum spacer behind the TOB. Also, since I'm employing a QuarterMaster clutch, notice that the TOB is the spherical face type unlike the Audi.

The slave cylinder on the 012 is a forward bias type that keeps the TOB always in contact with the pressure plate fingers. The advanage is that there's never a need for adjustment, and it keeps the pedal feel very positive (not sloppy as mentioned in an above post).

With regard to axial travel, I suspect a performance clutch manufacturer can supply you with what they call the "set up height" for their specific clutch assembly. That would be the distance from the flywheel surface to the pressure plate fingers when everything is bolted solidly in place. Additional to that, they should also be able to supply you with the axial travel at the fingers (TOB) necessary to disengage the clutch along with the force required. If you are using a stock clutch, then I suspect that information may be a bit more difficult to find.

Andy

BoxerSix · Oct 27, 2008

andys said:
Doug,

I took a slightly different approach to the problem by adding a machined spacer behind the TOB in order to get the travel in the right place relative to the slave's available travel and fork position. I forget exactly what the 012 TOB assembly looks like, but I think it has the TOB and plastic retainer held by a spring clip or (?). The below photo is what I did on my 01E; If you look carefully, you'll see the machined aluminum spacer behind the TOB. Also, since I'm employing a QuarterMaster clutch, notice that the TOB is the spherical face type unlike the Audi.

The slave cylinder on the 012 is a forward bias type that keeps the TOB always in contact with the pressure plate fingers. The advanage is that there's never a need for adjustment, and it keeps the pedal feel very positive (not sloppy as mentioned in an above post).

With regard to axial travel, I suspect a performance clutch manufacturer can supply you with what they call the "set up height" for their specific clutch assembly. That would be the distance from the flywheel surface to the pressure plate fingers when everything is bolted solidly in place. Additional to that, they should also be able to supply you with the axial travel at the fingers (TOB) necessary to disengage the clutch along with the force required. If you are using a stock clutch, then I suspect that information may be a bit more difficult to find.

Andy

That's a pretty clever and trick piece you made there.

and yes any complete aftermarket clutch manufacture will be able to give you those specs for certain as long as it's OEM FW/disk/PP. Hoever I'm sure nearly any company would be able to forward some sort of "reference point" specs at the very least

wment · Dec 7, 2008

Adam
I am also looking at using the 012 trans. Thanks for the tip about adding .020" to the TOB travel. There is one thing I still am guessing at. Looking at Doug's drawing above, how much clearance should there be between the clutch fingers and the fully back TOB position shown by the 90.7mm dimension. This clearance would allow for the finger location to change as the clutch plate wears. Another way to put this is what should the clearance/travel be between the point where the TOB contacts the fingers and then pushing the TOB back until the cyl bottoms out?? Im thinking about .1"

Wayne

Doug68 · Dec 8, 2008

Hi Wayne,

From what I've measured with the clutch setup I've planned, the TOB (I get it now) can go back further than the fingers in the fully realeased position (I don't have the exact number to hand), so the issue you describe should not be an issue.

What I was more concerned about initially was the reverse, that there would not be enough travel in the TOB to release the clutch when brand new. which now I don't think now is an issue either.

BTW FlatChat now has the design drawings I've done to get this kit done, so maybe y'all need to pester him into getting the machines fired up

wment · Dec 8, 2008

Doug
I am still trying to get the adapter plate thickness figured out. I have measured the flywheel/clutch that came with the Kennedy 016 kit and the Audi flywheel/clutch and am coming to about the same height/thickness. Either one will only give me about .030" of free play before the TOB contacts the clutch fingers. I know once the clutch disc wears this free play will get smaller. I feel that .030" is not enough but dont want to leave too much play either. Also have to be concerned with the amount input shaft is in the pilot bearing and starter and flywheel gear. Are you still looking at using the 012 trans?

1uzfe to audi 012

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