ZF 5DS‑25/2 correct shift pattern

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Vinny P

Supporter
My reverse location is down towards the driver and to the left. In all the shift‑pattern references I’ve found for a ZF in a GT40, reverse is shown up towards the dashboard and to the left. I purchased this Gearbox from RCR, and I was told it was rebuilt and flipped for the GT40. The RCR‑supplied shifter matches the shift pattern I’m seeing — reverse is left and down toward the driver. The shift linkage is unusually stiff when I move the selector by hand, and the gearbox resisted going into gear when installed in the car. Is this behavior normal for a ZF 5DS‑25/2?
 
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rjklein

Rob Klein

Supporter
little known fact about ZF's in general. They do not like to go into reverse unless you go into first gear first. Let the clutch out and get the car to roll a little, then put the car into reverse.

as far as reverse location, sounds a little odd. Yes reverse is always up and to the left on a GT 40 flipped box.
 
J

Jean-Marc

I agree with Rob. What you may do is to put the car on stands and let the engine running, and have an assistant to activate the clutch, but instead to shift with the shifter, try to shift by moving the actuators directly on the gear box and see what happen
 
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BillK

Is your car left-hand or right-hand drive? It makes a difference on GT40's, as the shifter is on the right-hand side of the box, in a Pantera it is on the lefthand side of the box. I am not sure of what was meant by FLIPPED, to my knowledge the parts at the box are not truly interchangeable, but I could be wrong. Look at an original GT40 gate with reverse lockout lever. Rob was correct that they do not like to go quietly into reverse but as I recall it, I would go from 5th to reverse.

BillK
 
P

Lee Patterson

Supporter
The shift pattern remains the same in both the GT40 and Pantera orientations but the shift rod moves in the opposite direction because the gearbox is flipped upside down. The shift patten is 1st far left and down, 2 - 3 centered up and down and 4 - 5 far right up and down. Reverse is jogged far left and up (not the same as 1st). The shift mechanism is very stiff and hard to move by hand without the linkage attached. As others have said, getting into reverse without first putting a running ZF into gear is ill advised as it will grind because the ZF is spinning.

How do you know reverse is down and left? Is the car running and moving that way?
 
V

Vinny P

Supporter
pattersonlee said:
The shift pattern remains the same in both the GT40 and Pantera orientations but the shift rod moves in the opposite direction because the gearbox is flipped upside down. The shift patten is 1st far left and down, 2 - 3 centered up and down and 4 - 5 far right up and down. Reverse is jogged far left and up (not the same as 1st). The shift mechanism is very stiff and hard to move by hand without the linkage attached. As others have said, getting into reverse without first putting a running ZF into gear is ill advised as it will grind because the ZF is spinning.

How do you know reverse is down and left? Is the car running and moving that way?
Click to expand...
It's a left-hand drive. I have not driven the car on the road. I had it up on the lift and running. I kept the gearbox in reverse gear, foot on the clutch, and at idle, when I released the clutch, the wheels spun in reverse with the shifter to the left and down towards the driver position. Also, the fabricated shift kit provided by RCR is set up with the lockout and reverse shift position orientation to the left and down towards the driver. I do not know what the orientation of gears 1-5 is until I drive the car.
 
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Lee Patterson

Supporter
It's a cable shift right? Sounds like you have the cables mixed up then. The key would be to ensure the actual shift rod coming out of the ZF selector box rotates TO THE LEFT and moves FORWARD to achieve reverse. You have to make your shift cables do that motion. Otherwise, it will all be bass-ackwards when you try to drive it
 
P

Lee Patterson

Supporter
Sorry, Shift selector rod at the ZF rotates to the LEFT and moves BACKWARD to achieve reverse. The opposite fore/aft direction of the shift lever.
 
V

Vinny P

Supporter
The wider part of the shifter box opening is towards the rear of the car. I'm 99% sure I have the cables in the correct orientation. Maybe I am looking at the box wrong, but if you look, you will see that the lockout orientation for reverse is down towards the driver. I have to push the shifter down (reverse lockout) and back to engage reverse. If I reverse the cables, it will not be oriented to the shifter box. Also, the cables supplied with the shifter box already had the ends on them and matched the orientation of the shifter box. That is why I am a bit perplexed.
 

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Lee Patterson

Supporter
Vinny - sorry - I had it right the first time. Here is my car sitting in 1st gear. Shift rod rotated left and BACK.

1769284381104.jpeg
 

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B

BenL

wkozlow said:
Is your car left-hand or right-hand drive? It makes a difference on GT40's, as the shifter is on the right-hand side of the box, in a Pantera it is on the lefthand side of the box. I am not sure of what was meant by FLIPPED, to my knowledge the parts at the box are not truly interchangeable, but I could be wrong. Look at an original GT40 gate with reverse lockout lever. Rob was correct that they do not like to go quietly into reverse but as I recall it, I would go from 5th to reverse.
Click to expand...

Because of ground clearance issues, the Pantera ZF transaxles were flipped (that's why the shift mechanism is on the opposite side of the transaxle). To be used in a GT40, Pantera transaxles need to be flipped back and a few changes made.

I've never had a problem going in to reverse, but I usually start from 1st.
 
V

Vinny P

Supporter
Look at my gate, it is opposite yours, and that is what doesn't seem right to me.
 

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Mark IV

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
BenL said:
Because of ground clearance issues, the Pantera ZF transaxles were flipped (that's why the shift mechanism is on the opposite side of the transaxle). To be used in a GT40, Pantera transaxles need to be flipped back and a few changes made.

I've never had a problem going in to reverse, but I usually start from 1st.
Click to expand...
Actually, on the ZF the shift box can be swapped from side to side as there is a "pass through" that allows the transverse shaft to be activated from either side. That is the bolt-on "cup" that is opposite of the shift box.
 
P

Paul T.

Supporter
Vinny, what will make a difference where reverse-first orientation is whether the cable at the trans is at the top or bottom of the rotational part. Mine shifts the same as yours now, I changed it from the bottom to the top to gain some clearance. Then I changed the shift box to back for reverse. Post up a picture of your shift mech at the transaxle. I have a BMW M1 transaxle that shifts on the left.
 

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Vinny P

Supporter
I guess what I need to know is the rotation direction of the selector shaft when shifting into reverse (while looking at it from the side in the photos), from someone using a cable shifter on a ZF gearbox, with a normal shift pattern, reverse shifting left and up towards the dashboard.
 

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V

Vinny P

Supporter
Paul Thon said:
Vinny, what will make a difference where reverse-first orientation is whether the cable at the trans is at the top or bottom of the rotational part. Mine shifts the same as yours now, I changed it from the bottom to the top to gain some clearance. Then I changed the shift box to back for reverse. Post up a picture of your shift mech at the transaxle. I have a BMW M1 transaxle that shifts on the left.
Click to expand...
My cable set up is on the right. In theory, if I flip the bell crank to the bottom it should shift using the common GT40 shift pattern. I would have to fabricate a new cable bracket.
 

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Paul T.

Supporter
Paul Thon said:
Vinny, what will make a difference where reverse-first orientation is whether the cable at the trans is at the top or bottom of the rotational part. Mine shifts the same as yours now, I changed it from the bottom to the top to gain some clearance. Then I changed the shift box to back for reverse. Post up a picture of your shift mech at the transaxle. I have a BMW M1 transaxle that shifts on the left.
Click to expand...
Vinny P said:
My cable set up is on the right. In theory, if I flip the bell crank to the bottom it should shift using the common GT40 shift pattern. I would have to fabricate a new cable bracket.
Click to expand...
That's the way I see it, unless something with the shift forks inside change whether it's on the left or right. I would shift it by hand to find out for sure if reverse is forward or back on the trans lever. To get the standard shift pattern with reverse over and forward you will have to change the shifter box lock out.
 

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J

Jean-Marc

I come back to what I write before, You need first to be sure that your gear bow shifting forks are correct for this you need to actuate the fork directly on the box without the lever. When you will be sure, you will know if it is comming from the cable. But as Lee said, I strongly think of a mix in the cables.
 
V

Vinny P

Supporter
This is the shifter supplied with the cable‑shift conversion kit. As you can see, the shifter gate is wider towards the rear. It shifts down towards the driver and to the left. The instructions that came with the kit also show that the brackets and the bellcrank are installed with the cable secured at the top of the bellcrank (shaft). What’s throwing me off is that the shifter is designed to engage in reverse, with the lever pointing left and down toward the driver, which matches the cable orientation I have. I would prefer that it shift using the more common shift pattern. I’m trying to determine whether the issue comes from the supplied shifter kit or from my gearbox having been rebuilt with the selector shaft oriented incorrectly. Before I buy a CNC shift kit, I want to be sure it will work with the selector shaft orientation on my gearbox.”
 

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