Cost of engines
- Thread starter harvs
- Start date
I don't know very much about the ford engines. but isn't weight an impotand if not the most importand factor
I have always asumed ford doesn't make 350 pushrod blocks in alluminium, yet GM did with the ls series. correct me if I'm wrong.
my Ls1 put 130KG on the scales with alternator and intake. the steel equivalent will be much heavier. as chapman said "want to make it fast? ad lightness!"
also is there for instance a Ford engine that is comparable with say a GM LS3 430hp on tap and running stock managment without much hassle?
sorry if I sound very stupid, there's not much to find over here in the netherlands about these USA v8's
ps: mine is a lola replica so can have a chevy!
(pffffiewwh, {wipes forehead} nice recovery on that one init?)
Grtz thomas
I have always asumed ford doesn't make 350 pushrod blocks in alluminium, yet GM did with the ls series. correct me if I'm wrong.
my Ls1 put 130KG on the scales with alternator and intake. the steel equivalent will be much heavier. as chapman said "want to make it fast? ad lightness!"
also is there for instance a Ford engine that is comparable with say a GM LS3 430hp on tap and running stock managment without much hassle?
sorry if I sound very stupid, there's not much to find over here in the netherlands about these USA v8's
ps: mine is a lola replica so can have a chevy!
(pffffiewwh, {wipes forehead} nice recovery on that one init?)
Grtz thomas
Absolutely, with you on the weight. The 289/302 is actually pretty light all things considered. iirc its about 200kg.
The one thing that I don't get is that the 'Ford' engine in all too many replicas is essentially just the block, all the rest has been swapped for aftermarket! Only one more Ford part than in a chevy engine...
The one thing that I don't get is that the 'Ford' engine in all too many replicas is essentially just the block, all the rest has been swapped for aftermarket! Only one more Ford part than in a chevy engine...
All joking aside the FE is a heavy engine, IIRC not far off 100Kg more than a 302.
Not so bad when its making *lots* of power and you have a great long straight to get some serious speed, IMO not quite so good round tighter tracks and on the roads of the UK.
As with a lot of things though its very different in the US, you guys have plenty of cheap Ford V8 engines, a million tuners and cheap tuning parts. We er don't.
If 'we' were in the US I doubt this question would even crop up.
As for the modular V8 IIRC its just too damn big.
Not so bad when its making *lots* of power and you have a great long straight to get some serious speed, IMO not quite so good round tighter tracks and on the roads of the UK.
As with a lot of things though its very different in the US, you guys have plenty of cheap Ford V8 engines, a million tuners and cheap tuning parts. We er don't.
If 'we' were in the US I doubt this question would even crop up.
As for the modular V8 IIRC its just too damn big.
A good point made in a different thread.
Cost is not everything and a smaller 'screamer' engine will feel very different from a torque monster. Which one you get depends on what you want and the majority of the UK V8 engines are fairly small (in comparison!) and lacking in torque, not that ~400Nm is that lacking but you know what I mean!
Cost is not everything and a smaller 'screamer' engine will feel very different from a torque monster. Which one you get depends on what you want and the majority of the UK V8 engines are fairly small (in comparison!) and lacking in torque, not that ~400Nm is that lacking but you know what I mean!
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Yes, our wide roads with wide shoulders are much more forgiving of "excess torque" than a single track B roads with hedges on either side. OTOH the sensation of speed on the twisting B road is hard to duplicate over here.
David,
Has anyone attempted to place an Eaton or Whipple s'charger on their 40? I don't
know if the space constraints from the rear deck would prohibit it etc? They can
easily get the owner a quick 100+ h.p. if the motor can handle it. Many of the
"terminator Mustangs" are seeing 500 -600 hp to the rear wheels with the whipple's
or K.B.'s, but not so much with the Eaton.
Mark
Has anyone attempted to place an Eaton or Whipple s'charger on their 40? I don't
know if the space constraints from the rear deck would prohibit it etc? They can
easily get the owner a quick 100+ h.p. if the motor can handle it. Many of the
"terminator Mustangs" are seeing 500 -600 hp to the rear wheels with the whipple's
or K.B.'s, but not so much with the Eaton.
Mark
Dunno which blower this one is, his build thread doesn't actually mention what make
That's a 1UZ-FE btw, dry sumped to fit lower the engine enough to fit the blower below the cross member.
If you're not fitting a blower I'm pretty sure it doesn't need to be dropped down and so just a stock engine.
That's a 1UZ-FE btw, dry sumped to fit lower the engine enough to fit the blower below the cross member.
If you're not fitting a blower I'm pretty sure it doesn't need to be dropped down and so just a stock engine.
Well, unless your car is an original, it ain't a Ford...so go ahead and put whatever engine you want in there....just to be the devil's advocate a bit here.
I was thinking the 5.0ltr, quad cam, 4 valve, all alloy mercedes engine (with webers of course...) would be a helluva engine in there. In fact, I believe the german cav dealer who unfortunately died in his GT40 had a mercedes engine in his car. At least that's what I heard.
The Chevy LS engines are amazing bang for the buck. Don't know much about them, but the 5.3ltr Chevy engine in my 2004 suburban is a helluva good engine - has run like a top for 200,000 miles and never leaked a drop of oil or needed more than filters and 2 spark plug changes. Amazing.
I was thinking the 5.0ltr, quad cam, 4 valve, all alloy mercedes engine (with webers of course...) would be a helluva engine in there. In fact, I believe the german cav dealer who unfortunately died in his GT40 had a mercedes engine in his car. At least that's what I heard.
The Chevy LS engines are amazing bang for the buck. Don't know much about them, but the 5.3ltr Chevy engine in my 2004 suburban is a helluva good engine - has run like a top for 200,000 miles and never leaked a drop of oil or needed more than filters and 2 spark plug changes. Amazing.
Brett James-McCall
Moderator
Which would be great if all the rest was Ford too.
So far I have all of 2 Ford 'parts' in mine[1]. Front uprights/hubs and air vents. I may replace the hubs before I'm done too. Only likely to increase to a few more parts when finished and just about every replica is the same.
Brett, you work for Ford, how many parts apart from the engine are Ford in yours?
Of course you could argue that if you used a 89-07 Aston Martin V8, 99-10 Volvo V8, 89-08 Jaguar V8 or a 00-08 Range Rover V8 then they're Ford engines....
I did say I was opening the can of worms!
[1] Although a few more parts are Ford spec but sourced from OEM, eg rack, track rod ends etc.
Well, rear carriers and bearings etc. Front hubs are custom, steering rack is Ford yada, yada. However, even the 40 (as with a lot of cars) are made up of supplier parts, but there are some key components that help define a vehicle, for instance Lucas switches.
My gearbox is a 01X, but as you say I work for Ford, not a bank, so I can't afford a ZFQ or even Porsche (at the moment)
So to my not well made point and just my $0.02. Ultimately, it is a Ford GT40 replica as I said. There are just some things for me that help define the car/replica and one of the important things was that I can lift the rear clip and tell people that its a Ford 302 in there, for me not an Audi or a Chevy or even a JLR V8 engine.
To your point, the JLR, AML engines are not Ford engines, even if they own the rights, or were developed from the base of a Ford engine in the case of the AML V12. They are Ford associated engines.
People build there own cars and make their own choices, the rest is just noise/opinions created by lots of other of people. You have to be happy with what you build. I would not ever look down at someone building a car, as I know it takes a lot of effort and have respect for anyone that does it - however, what does annoy me is the people who buy their cars (and get others to maintain) but 'kindly' offer their opinions on how people should build...
As for my engine, I have just used the block, crank, mains caps and timing cover. Everything else is new. I guess I will find out whether I have built it right soon(ish) once the witing loom goes in.
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
I have a Ford block in my GT40, but everything else in it was made by someone else- heads by AFR, rotating assembly by SCAT, Comp cam, Webers, etc. Even the oil pan was made by someone else. But the block is old (1968) and made by Ford.
If I were doing this again, I think I'd go for broke and get a modern aluminum SBF block. AND I'd get it from Ford Motorsports. It would have four-bolt mains and weigh less, which would be nice. I'd start with a Ford part, though. Ford has a great racing history from the factory (Chevys have a great racing history but not from GM) and I figure I should support the factory's efforts. FWIW
If I were doing this again, I think I'd go for broke and get a modern aluminum SBF block. AND I'd get it from Ford Motorsports. It would have four-bolt mains and weigh less, which would be nice. I'd start with a Ford part, though. Ford has a great racing history from the factory (Chevys have a great racing history but not from GM) and I figure I should support the factory's efforts. FWIW
I'd love to go the alloy FMS route. Can't afford it. 
Anyway, another thing to consider is weight, while this is rather out of date and no idea how accurate it is, it gives an idea of relative weights.
http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt
Just goes to show how good the 289/302 engine is (presumably with aluminium heads) for a cast iron block motor, the 4l BMW and Lexus engines are heavier than the 5l Ford!
There are some tasty engines in there though, crazy low weights and likely crazy high power too.
Anyway, another thing to consider is weight, while this is rather out of date and no idea how accurate it is, it gives an idea of relative weights.
http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt
Just goes to show how good the 289/302 engine is (presumably with aluminium heads) for a cast iron block motor, the 4l BMW and Lexus engines are heavier than the 5l Ford!
There are some tasty engines in there though, crazy low weights and likely crazy high power too.
I would say that Ford Racing has some pretty good pricing on their crate engines and longblocks now.
Re Ohio Mark's question, the new 444 horsepower 2012 5.0 L Boss 302 engine is available as a crate engine from Ford Racing with list price of $12,000 but can be purchased from FRPP dealers now for $10,600 with free shipping in the US.
The standard 412 hp 5.0 L Coyote engine is available from several FRPP dealers for $5,700 to $5995 including free shipping in the US. This is a real bargain for the technology in this engine.
There are also longblocks with Forged pistons, forged Manley H beam rods, forged steel crank, aluminum block etc. available as 4.6 L Aluminator engines for approx $6,500 to $6,700 with free shipping. The 5.0 L coyote all forged Aluminator long block is a about $7,200.
A 5.0 L pushrod 340 hp crate engine with forged pistons, rods and cast crank is available for $3,600 including shipping from FRPP dealers.
A 535 hp 427 cu in stroked 351 W engine (less intake and disributor, Boss 351 block, all forged internals, hydraulic roller cam ) is a little over $8,000 with free shipping and the 600 hp aluminum block 427 cu in stroked 351W ( all forged internals and solid roller cam) is under $13,000 with free shipping from the FRPP dealers. There are 347 and 363 cu in Boss 302 blocked stroker engines at 500hp + in between the 302 and 351 based engines also.
Re-built
And many of the aftermarket parts are not much more than the Chevrolet parts now. So the situation is much much better than it used to be back in the 60's to early 80's when we had to make almost everything for our Ford Boss 302 based race engines!!
Gord
Re Ohio Mark's question, the new 444 horsepower 2012 5.0 L Boss 302 engine is available as a crate engine from Ford Racing with list price of $12,000 but can be purchased from FRPP dealers now for $10,600 with free shipping in the US.
The standard 412 hp 5.0 L Coyote engine is available from several FRPP dealers for $5,700 to $5995 including free shipping in the US. This is a real bargain for the technology in this engine.
There are also longblocks with Forged pistons, forged Manley H beam rods, forged steel crank, aluminum block etc. available as 4.6 L Aluminator engines for approx $6,500 to $6,700 with free shipping. The 5.0 L coyote all forged Aluminator long block is a about $7,200.
A 5.0 L pushrod 340 hp crate engine with forged pistons, rods and cast crank is available for $3,600 including shipping from FRPP dealers.
A 535 hp 427 cu in stroked 351 W engine (less intake and disributor, Boss 351 block, all forged internals, hydraulic roller cam ) is a little over $8,000 with free shipping and the 600 hp aluminum block 427 cu in stroked 351W ( all forged internals and solid roller cam) is under $13,000 with free shipping from the FRPP dealers. There are 347 and 363 cu in Boss 302 blocked stroker engines at 500hp + in between the 302 and 351 based engines also.
Re-built
And many of the aftermarket parts are not much more than the Chevrolet parts now. So the situation is much much better than it used to be back in the 60's to early 80's when we had to make almost everything for our Ford Boss 302 based race engines!!
Gord
Mike Pass
Supporter
Might I also mention the sound of an engine. One of the unique characteristics of an engine/car is the sound it makes as heard from inside and outside. A 302/361/347 with a crossover exhaust will have that "GT40 sound" which we all know and love. Four valve per cylinder motors sound very different as the two exhaust valves give a "softer" sound as the piston finds it easier to push the gas out. So whist you can get more power from alternatives the combination of firing order, valve arrangement and exhaust gives the special aural characteristics as per the original cars.
Brmmm Brmmm...... happy days!
Cheers
Mike
Brmmm Brmmm...... happy days!
Cheers
Mike
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