Least Expensive Way to Make 1000 HP

[Brisc P.]

G'day there,

I've been looking around for the least expensive way to build a 1000 HP engine that could potentially fit into a GT40 chassis. Here's what I got so far:

Reaching the 1000 HP goal without forced injection means going for a big block which will be very difficult to fit into a GT40 chassis. Here an example: Scott Shafiroff 632 CI (more than 10 liter displacement) Big Dawg:

• 1000 HP @ 6500 RPM
• 865 lb ft @ 5500 RPM
• BxS 4.600 x 4.750
• compression: 10.75 to 1
• 93 Octane

Engine is too large and also, very expensive at about 22000 USD without carby and ignition. I also wonder how durable this package is looking at the stroke of 4.75 inches (120mm, piston will travel more than 240mm up and down, that's crazy!). At 6500 RPM we get a mean piston velocity of about 26m/s which is certainly far from durable! Only Top Fuel dragster engines have more, but these motors last no more than 10 seconds (F1 engines also have about 26m/s). It also has solid lifters, which means valve adjustments, more or less an engine for the workbench, rather than the street.

A better way would be to go with forced induction, and Chevy has a very nice, inexpensive series of crate engines, based on the LSX iron block (small-block with 4.4" piston spacing, rated to 2500 horsepower). Baseline version "19171049 - LSX376" has

• 450 HP @ 5900 RPM
• 444 lb ft @ 4400 RPM
• BxS 4.060 x 3.620
• compression: 9 to 1

Mean piston speed comes to about 18m/s, a "daily driver" motor. It comes with hydraulic lifters as well, so no valve adjustments needed. Best thing is the price, which is around 5500 USD from JEGS.com. The internals are not forged, which would limit boost to about 3-5 PSI when used as a "daily driver", which translates to about 550-650 horsepower. People have used up to 15 PSI on them to get the 1000 HP out, but this comes at reduced reliability.

Just recently, Chevy has brought out that very same engine with all-forged internals (4340 steel crankshaft), which is rated for 15 PSI of boost. 15 PSI of boost can give more than 1000 HP, and there are small, radial superchargers (Paxton Novi 2500) that could fit into a GT40. GM engine number is "19299306 - LSX376-B15". They go for 7800 USD at JEGS.com. The supercharger kit will cost around 4-5 grand but doesn't have to be added right away, but later down the road when saved a little more money.


Any thoughts?

I have not found anything in the Ford-corner that could be built for that price.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Nice advert..

 

[jyrki sulka]

I've been looking around for the least expensive way to build a 1000 HP engine that could potentially fit into a GT40 chassis.

Only way to do it "cheaply", whatever the engine is, is turbocharge it.
If Windsor; needs stronger (aftermarket) block or you have soon two 4-cylinders.

 

[Randy V]

I can make you a thousand HP on the cheap quite easily. How long it will last is the real question here.
If you start out with components that were designed to work in a 250HP environment and then require them to perform at 4x that figure, their longevity will be in serious jeopardy.

So what is your tolerance in terms of expense and what are your requirements for lifespan at the 1000 HP performance level? IE - if it is only called upon to make 1000 HP for short bursts (moments measured in seconds), but will spend the rest of the time just loping about town sounding all badd-ass, then you may have something that will last a year or a day... All depends on requirements..

 

[Mark R]

I have not found anything in the Ford-corner that could be built for that price.

There are many examples of people pushing the 1k-HP mark with Cobra Terminator 4.6 and GT/ GT500 5.4 motors. And (I might add) still running on the stock internals.

 

[Fred W Ballinger]

I'm interested as to what (less expensive?) transaxle you are going to bolt behind this 1000HP engine?

Cheers

Fred W B

 

[Brisc P.]

I'm interested as to what (less expensive?) transaxle you are going to bolt behind this 1000HP engine?

Cheers

Fred W B

Welcome to Fortin Racing make a number of gearboxes that can handle 1000 hp, but they are expensive indeed. Does anyone know of gearboxes/transaxles that are less expensive and ready for the torque?

 

[Scott]

There is a "Least Expensive" option, but this is not to be confused with "Low Cost". To be honest 1000hp engine and trans is going to cost you a very large sum of money.

The only regular production transmissions that have been known to live at quadruple digit horsepower is Lamborghini, Ford GT and possibly the Audi R8 gearboxes. There are many examples of 1000+ hp cars running around using that hardware.

Neither are inexpensive however. You could get away with a Porsche or Audi box if the car is driven smartly and carefully but one oops moment and the box will be trashed.

 

[Merim]

Isn't the R8/Gallardo trans the same?

 

[Kris]

I don't know about the trans the but I believe the engine share a lot of components. Remember reading when the R8 just came with their V10 about it.

 

[Brisc P.]

there are a number of options:

Shifty Business Guide to Gearboxes and Transaxles: Off-Road.com

Mendeola HD4 for example

 

[Ian Anderson]

If you do some reading on this forum you will find that people have looked at various combinations of engines and transaxles and often, due to the short length of a GT40, the transaxle will end up hanging out the rear of the car.

Ian

 

[Brisc P.]

Does anyone have some drawings of the chassis (top view) so that I could work out how much space I would have and how things would fit in? Also, do these dimensions differ between the MK1 and MK2? The MK2 had a larger motor stock, so I assume there is more space in the chassis?


BTW: there are Ford blocks that have similar cylinder spacings than the LSX block, but unfortunately, I'm not aware of a Ford-based crate motor that has similar specs, i.e. forged internals, about 380 CUI using more than 4 inch diameter pistons. Does anyone have some idea on this?

 

[Brisc P.]

There are many examples of people pushing the 1k-HP mark with Cobra Terminator 4.6 and GT/ GT500 5.4 motors. And (I might add) still running on the stock internals.

How expensive would that adventure be? Are they available with an iron block?

 

[Thomas Rouw]

What gearbox wil you use to get this power to your wheels? The trans alone wil set you back more than the price of the bigblock you mention.

Sounds to me like there's a lot of homework to be done before you can make judgement to what it is you exactly want. 1000bhp is Nice if you're fan of Dyno figures but doesn't neccesarily make a quick car.

The least expensieve way might be in the toyota 1uzfe V8 stick the right turbo on that and you'll be close. Engine itself is cheap as chips.

Grtz thomas

 

[Fred W Ballinger]

This guy is putting over 1100 hp through a newGT40 trans

You Rank It! Wild 1,200HP, Mid-Engine, Bare-Metal '37 Ford - Hot Rod Magazine Blog

Cheers

Fred W B

 

[Howard Jones]

Here's a good question. What tires are you going to run on a street car that will transmit a 1000 HP to the pavement. I would be looking at the maximum amount of grip that you can put onto the car in the form of tires and differential and then work back from there when selecting the power output from the motor. I think you will be at about 1/2 of what you are talking about on street tires.

500 HP would be right at the grip limit of anything street legal you can buy to put on a 12 inch wide wheel in the first three gears. After that you will still have a 190MPH car. Isn't that enough?

That was a good advert however.

 

[Bill Musarra]

Here's 750HP on carburation!!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt5fw1yIt6U&feature=relmfu]Boss Nine Engine [S4 Ep12-2] - YouTube[/ame]
And here's FI. with as much HP and more torque.
The V8 Interceptor: Nips, Tucks, & 8 Stack [S5 Ep. 6-2] - YouTube
Now if you want a small block, look at the P38 heads on a 302-351. With a mild cam and Victor Jr. intake,,,, around 500HP! these heads run in the $2200-2500 range.
Jon Kaase Race Engines' P-38 Cylinder Heads - Playing Head Games - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine

Bill

 

[Brisc P.]

Here's a good question. What tires are you going to run on a street car that will transmit a 1000 HP to the pavement. I would be looking at the maximum amount of grip that you can put onto the car in the form of tires and differential and then work back from there when selecting the power output from the motor. I think you will be at about 1/2 of what you are talking about on street tires.

500 HP would be right at the grip limit of anything street legal you can buy to put on a 12 inch wide wheel in the first three gears. After that you will still have a 190MPH car. Isn't that enough?

That was a good advert however.

That's a very easy to answer question. There are three very easy ways to answer this:

1) modern brake systems have more than 6000 brake-horsepower, and they can't lock the tires if travelling above 100 km/h.

2) Top Fuel dragsters have roughly 10000 horsepower above 300 km/h and they don't spin the tires

3) a few minutes of high-school maths will tell us what torque the engine will need to produce to cause slip on acceleration:

The maximum linear acceleration for road-registered sports cars are about 1g, Formula 1 cars have about 1.7g, for a Top Fuel Dragster we have about 4g (they go from 0-530 km/h in 4.5 seconds).

A typical sports car tire made for road use can do better than 1g (some far better, but let's stick to 1g for now).

F = m*a

so with a vehicle weight of 1000 Kg and an acceleration of 1g we get

F = 9.81 m/s^2 * 1000 Kg = 9.8 kN

Torque is very simply :

T = r*F

So now let's have a look at a GT44 in 6th gear: final drive ratio is 3.36:1, 6th gear ratio is 0.63:1, overall gear ratio is 2.12:1, so for every rotation of the tire, the engine turns roughly 2 times. For the other gears, the overall ratios are:
1st 2.61*3.36=8.77
2nd 1.71*3.36=5.75
3rd 1.23*3.36=4.13
4th 0.94*3.36=3.16
5th 0.77*3.36=2.59
6th 0.63*3.36=2.12

Let's use a tire size of 650 mm diameter.

To cause slip in 6th gear (with clutch fully engaged, no slipping clutch obviously) we need:

T = 0.325 m * 9810 N / 2.12 = 1500Nm

If you look at all the gears you get the following torque values:
1st 365Nm
2nd 554Nm
3rd 772Nm
4th 1009Nm
5th 1230Nm
6th 1500Nm

Now let's also include drag. The GT40 has about 1.3 m^2 frontal projected area, and a drag coefficient of about 0.4

Again, let's have a look at the 6th gear first. Let's say the engine makes maximum torque at 5000 RPM. The tire circumference is:

U = 2*PI*r = 2 * 0.325 m * 3.14 = 2m

and the speed would be:

v = RPM/60 /overall ratio * U = 5000/60 1/s /2.12 *2m = 79 m/s or 284 km/h

For the other gears:
1st 19 m/s, 68 km/h
2nd 29 m/s, 104 km/h
3rd 41 m/s, 148 km/h
4th 52 m/s, 187 km/h
5th 65 m/s, 234 km/h
6th 79 m/s, 284 km/h

the drag force would be:

Fd = cd * q * A = cd * 1/2 * rho * u^2 * A

air density is roughly 1 Kg/m^3 on a hot day

Fd = 0.4 * 1/2 * 1 Kg/m^3 * 79^2 m^2/s^2 * 1.3 m^2 = 1622 N

For all gears:
1st 94N
2nd 219N
3rd 437N
4th 705N
5th 1103N
6th 1622N

So accounting for drag, accelerating with 1g requires:
1st 368Nm
2nd 566Nm
3rd 806Nm
4th 1081Nm
5th 1370Nm
6th 1750Nm

So, we have some chance of causing slip when applying full throttle in the 4th gear, but bear in mind that we have neglected losses between engine and tires, and also have only taken 1g as the tire limit. Also, 1000 hp supercharged won't give 1000 Nm, maybe 700 Nm.

Anyway, I haven't actually answered your question: no, slipping the tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd would not be enough, tires should slip in every gear at 2/3 of the throttle!

 

[Howard Jones]

I had a interesting discussion about just how fast a lap would be possible around Indy with no rules with a pretty smart guy one time. After the usually list of big power, lots of downforce, super light weight car etc. We came to solid fuel rockets. 8 as a matter of fact. 4 for acceleration 4 for braking and 4 straights.

After about 30 mims of math, it turned out that limiting factor the was the width of the track. Not enough room for the car that would result in mounting big enough rockets on it to exceed 400 + ave speeds.

The discussion turned to two rockets and liquid fuel. Tanks got real big fast. How about ejecting the fuel tanks as they are depleted after running the two long straights on solids and a parachute to stop after crossing the finish line. Why? Save the space for fuel and crash it in the end.

Then the deceleration rates exceeded human limits. We`don't need a driver really do we? Na, use the space for electronics and fuel.

My point being.................Hummmmmmmmmmmmm what ever. Use nitrous.