Audi 016,Porsche 944,Re-spline of 016

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Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Don't disregard the 930 option. Probably cheaper than a G50, and about 30+ lbs lighter. Not to mention stronger. And by all accounts parts and alternative ratios are cheaper.

With a 930 in the hillclimb situation you will probably only be using first and second, a nice easy forward/back change. Second will have all the snot you want and you will probably only be able to put it all down in a straight line anyway! So there is probably nothing to be gained from the shorter G50 2nd. The 930 first will be more useful and the taller 2nd means you won't be constantly doing 2nd/3rd/2nd gearchanges. However the G50 2nd/3rd/4th spread may be better for your track work.

Just a couple of thoughts to throw at you....
 
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Dave P

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Julian:

Have you determined what broke inside your Audi transaxle? I would be interested to hear what actually broke.
 
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Julian

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Well, the initial verdict is in. Spent today (in 39 deg heat!) pulling trans. Once out removed axles (both fine) and pulled the diff side plate. It's stripped half the pinion teath clean off! Which is good news as the gearbox itself should be OK then. Rolls over through all the gears easily. See pic below for the horror show. Not sure why the gears sheared. Maybe the pinion to crownwheel clearances were not quite right.

Anyways, I'll get another crown wheel and pinion and get box rebuilt. May look at getting the higher ratio 3.22 setup from Albins if it is not too expensive, I'm just tossing up the benefit of much taller gearing. Given that the motor is on the edge of traction in 2nd gear with the previous not quite right tune, It could be worth going taller diff ratio.

Here's how the stock 3.89 diff Vs Albins 3.22 diff ratios compare at my 7000 RPM rev limit: (all in km/h, AAZ code 016 trans)

Stock gears: 1,2,3,4,5 = 61, 104, 151, 207, 257
3.22 gears : 1,2,3,4,5 = 74, 125, 182, 250, 310

Oh, that was a nice video of that 944 with supercharged LSX motor!
 

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Rodolfo

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

200MPH said:
Here's how the stock 3.89 diff Vs Albins 3.22 diff ratios compare at my 7000 RPM rev limit: (all in km/h, AAZ code 016 trans)

Stock gears: 1,2,3,4,5 = 61, 104, 151, 207, 257
3.22 gears : 1,2,3,4,5 = 74, 125, 182, 250, 310
Click to expand...
I have an aaz like yours and Albins tell me that the best R/P can offer to me is a 3.38...

Who know why?:shifty:
 
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Dave P

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The porsche version of the 016 has a 3.375 gear available but the pinion is .250" longer. I recently bought a set for $288.00 U.S. I believe there is a post on the change over. 944 turbo pinion bearing is Larger and .250 spacer plate has to be made as well as shifter mechanism mods.
 
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Pete T

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The 951 gearbox doesn't have the provision for the slave cylinder and it does not have a pilot bearing area machined into the tip of the input shaft.

To use the AUDI case you need to open the area for the ring gear slightly (the 951 ring gear is .118" larger than the 016) and open the front pinion bearing bore to .3.497±.001. (the bearing is larger) 3rd gear is .15" wider but you can make up for this by using the 951 case iron case extension. You could also use a 951 gearbox that comes with an oil cooler as well. You would be basically swapping just the front case and using everything else from the 951 gearbox. You would also need to maching the input shaft for use with a pilot bearing

And if you find a 951S gearbox you have the extrs benefit of shot peened gears and shafts.

Insidently, the gearbox in the car in the video has the sshafts and gears cryo treated.
 
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Dave P

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Information I copied from a post here. Sorry I don't exactly have the post to link to

Cliff,
the LSD from a 944T and the open different from a 016 are IDENTICAL! The
LSD from the 944 has 4 spider gears instead of 2 which makes it stronger and it's a limited slip which can be better for obvious reasons.
The pinion gear shaft on the 944T is 4mm longer between 4th gear and 3rd gear. So the cast iron case and the front aluminum case need to be spaced apart with a 4mm shim. The 4th gear needs to be turned around because it is offset and has a shoulder on one side. This will move it back and position it back up with it's mating gear on the input shaft. Because you've moved the gear train back you most lengthen all 3 shift fork shafts to line them back up with the shifting paw that engages them when your shifting. The front Aluminum case needs to be bored out to to accept the larger porsche front pinion bearing. Now that that's done, the front case needs to be relieved alittle where the ring gear is placed because the 3.375 to 1 ring gear is bigger in diameter. It actually fits in a little ways then hits, so you can probably relieve it with a die grinder. The porsche case is bored out alittle bit at the factor for this reason. The needle bearing that supports the main shaft should still contact the shaft even though the shaft has moved back 4mm.
Might have to press the bearing back alittle.
Now you know the rest
 
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Pete T

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

RacerDave, what you have copied is for using a 951 ring and pinion in the AUDI gearbox. I am suggesting using the 951 gearbox and just swapping the front AUDI case so you get the benifit of the entire 951 gearbox, not just the ring and pinion. Insidently, I should add to what you posted. 3rd and 4th gear are splined on the pinion shaft where they are just press fitted to all non 951 and 944S/S2 gearboxes. (AUDI and 944) So you would also need the 3rd and 4th gear sets from the 951 to complete the ring and pinion swap into an AUDI box. (I need to update my article)
 
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Dave P

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Thanks Pete:

That is good to know. Will the audi 016 input shaft fit in the 951 trans?
 
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Pete T

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The early 924 shaft is like the 944 in the fact that it is longer and does not have a pilot bearing area machined on the end. Otherwise it is identacle to the AUDI 016. The difference is the section that protrudes out past the seal is necked down on the early 924 and AUDI. The internal dimensions are the same. You would need to use the AUDI 1st gear parts as well because the input shaft has the first gear drive gear intrigal to it. The 944 (non turbo S/S2) are the same except the input part is larger in diameter.

The 951, S/S2 are slightly longer so I don't know how that effects the input shaft. That may be slightly longer as well. However, there is a guy that put a 951 ring and pinion into an AUDI gearbox so it should be pssible.
 
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Pete T

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I just remembered something.....

The early 944 gearboxes (82-85/1) are known to do the same thing to the ring and pinion on very high mileage cars. So I wonder if the ring and pinions in the 016 are subject to fatigue after they have high miles?

I've seen a couple 944's with the exact same looking ring and pinion failure.
 
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Julian

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Hmm, interesting Pete. I've been told by the people that race old 944's that the pinion failures on 944 boxes (same as 016) are quite common as they get older, never mind with the kind of torque I'm putting through it. So your idea of getting a 944 Turbo box and tweaking the Audi front case is interesting in order to get stronger diff gears and gearset.

So, my understanding is I'd need to use my Audi front ali case and then:

Relieve the diff ring gear area to clear slightly larger ring gear from turbo.
Machine out pinion bearing housing.
Get the input shaft machined down to match the 016 pilot bearing diameter.
Would I need a different clutch plate? Or are the 944T gearbox input splines the same? Guess that's not a big issue anyways...

Anything else I'm missing?

THanks,

Julian
 
blueovalz

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I wished I had the case in front of me, but my investigation into doing this indicated that the 944's input shaft is a good bit longer than the 016 (I think it protudes about 45mm past the face of the bellhousing), thus a different adapter plate must be used (or a spacer) even after machining a pilot.
 
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Dave P

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Pete and others:

I think it could be of great help to anyone using an Audi 016 to have a How build an 016 for a GT40 thread. A place of collective knowlege about the transaxle there are so many threads it is a bit confusing and takes hours of searching to get the scoop
 
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Scott

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

albanygt40 said:
Is there anyone in the world that makes gear sets for 016's?
Straight cuts or similar?

I guess high hp sticky track tyres and getting on it popped the box.

Have any of the RF Boys had this problem? Who else use's the 016?
Click to expand...

I find it amazing with all the deficiencies of the 016 people are still trying to find custom parts for the 016. You can polish a turd, but you are still left with nice looking crap.

If your blowing up 016 boxes, yes you can spend $8,000+ and have custom straight cut internals, or you can upgrade to a newer stronger design for the same or less G50, G60, 01E, 0A2, even the 01X are all vastly superior to the 016.
 
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