Audi 016,Porsche 944,Re-spline of 016

[Pete T]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The 944 turbo has a 1" x 23 spline. Clutch discs are avaliable from 8.5" up to 12". The shaft may be longer. I don't have any AUDI input shafts to compare to the Porsche ones I have.

I have an assembled 944 gearbox in the garage so I can measure the shaft length in relation to the bell housing flange. I won't be able to do it for a couple days though because I will be at work late getting a prototype automated smoothie machine ready to ship to a customer.

 

[Rodolfo]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

What is interchangeable with a 016?
01e?
01x?
I mean without a new adapting plate and so on...
I do not know what to do. My 016 work well but i need a longher R/P, LSD etc etc...
What I must do?

 

[Julian]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Thanks for the info Pete. I've got the 9" clutch setup from the KEP - Audi adapter kit at the moment. It would be best to keep it as it works well, other than change the clutch disc obviously. I just need to carefully measure the throw out bearing and splined area on my Audi 016 input shaft and then compare to your details when you can supply them. Hopefully it will be a goer without having to re-spline the input shaft - turning down the shaft for the spigot bearing (18 mm dia) should be pretty simple job.

Thanks,

Julian

 

[Eric A.]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

What is interchangeable with a 016?
01e?
01x?
I mean without a new adapting plate and so on...
I do not know what to do. My 016 work well but i need a longher R/P, LSD etc etc...
What I must do?

The bellhousing bolt pattern is the same but the aligning sleeve is located at a different hole. The input shaft dimensions are different so the 016 flywheel probably won't work for the 01E. I have made adapters for both the 016 and the 01E.

Eric
A&E Automotive & Machining

 

[Pete T]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I finally got a chance to measure the 944 transaxle input shaft. It protrudes out of the bell housing surface 1 5/8" and the splined part is 2 9/16" long.

I believe the AUDI shaft protrudes about 1/2" so the 944 shaft is a little over 1" longer. The 944 splines are not long enough to just cut the shaft off and machine the pilot bearing area. All that would be remaining is about 5/8" of splines shaft. The splines are rolled into the shaft so the shaft is not large enough in diameter to just re-spline.

But the shaft could be cut and the diameter turned down and then re-splined to the AUDI 13/16" x 24. The turbo shaft has a 1" x 23 spline.

The AUDI input shaft cannot be swapped into the 944 turbo because the turbo shaft is longer internally. So the only option would be to modify the turbo input shaft and swap the main case. If this was done then the turbo transaxle could be used with the same adapter and clutch. The added length of the turbo transaxle is in the cast iron center section so it wouldn't effect the shift mechanism or the CV shafts.

 

[Ron Earp]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

You guys really have a lot of decent tech here. Not sure it should all be hiding under the "016 goes Bang!" sort of title to the thread. It can be split off if needed.

 

[Julian]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Cheers Pete,

I've come to a similar sort of conclusion after having measured my Audi input shaft on the weekend and looked at many photos of 944 input shafts online. I'll have to machine down the 944 shaft (easy) and get it resplined smaller to match my Audi pressure plate (not so easy). The local gear cutter/spliner I talked to said if the shaft hardness was over 30 Rockwell C, he'd be out of luck trying to cut new splines with his HSS spline hobber tooling. I'll borrow a equotip hardness tester from work and do a rough hardness check on my Audi input shaft to see what the likely hardness of a 944 shaft may be.

I really need to just go and buy a 944T box and have a go at this. There are a few likely candidates available right now, but since I've got a pending offer in on a block of land, I just need to hold off for a couple of weeks to see how bad the piggy bank looks!

Thanks,

Julian

 

[Eric A.]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I have looked at doing this too. I think the input shaft could be left the length it is so if you can find a clutch plate that will fit the original splines all you would need to do is cut a pilot area on the end. The adapter plate will move the transaxle back enough to that the length should work. What are you going to do for a mount for the throwout bearing, clutch fork and slave cylinder?

 

[Pete T]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The 944 spline is 1" x 23 and is very common. You can get discs from 8.5" to 12". (215mm - 305mm) Late model Mustangs use the smaller one and 60's-70's Chrysler products use the larger ones.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

The issue I found when I was mixing and matching clutch discs for a 944 conversion, was the clutch hub (springs, etc) size not fitting into the various combinations of flywheels and pressure plates. I found that (in general), the larger the diameter of the disc, the larger the hub.The heart of the problem was the correct diameter disc ended up with a hub that had interference issues with all the adjacent parts.

I just never got to the point of making all of this work before finally saying, "$3600 for an LSD 930 case is not looking as bad as it once did".

 

[Julian]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Well, I come from the point of already having the car setup and running with an 016, but if I was starting again, I'd go the G50 or similar!

The other problem I have is there is not enough room behind the trans to space it back another 25 - 50 mm to get the existing 944 splines in a suitable position and use a 23 spline 1" clutch plate. Hence machining and resplining to match my Audi 016 input shaft is perhaps better for me.

Anyways, it's all speculation for now...

 

[Julian]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Well, I measured the hardness of my existing 016 input shaft and turns out it has a hardness of around 50 - 55 HRC. Which is a bit hard for re-splining using HSS tooling. So either I find another way to respline it or I get the shaft normalised (heat treated to soften it), then machined and splined, then heat treated and quenched to bring it back to the original hardness.

Nothing's ever easy...sigh. I'll keep on investigating for now.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I'm not a metallurgist, but am curious about splining an already hardened shaft. My understanding is that some hardening may not be all the way through (don’t know if that is the case here). So, could you be cutting into softer material that may cause problems down the road if it’s not re-treated anyway?

 

[Eric A.]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

I used to know a guy who cut splines with a grinder. He could cut spines on anything and did a lot of farm machinery repairs and rebuilding. I saw several of his jobs and the splines were really good. Someone like that could respline your shaft if it is hard through.

 

[Julian]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

Well, I've talked to a toolmaker friend of mine, and the splines can be manually cut using carbide bits and a decent mill. So that will work I'd say. Just not as easy.

Yes - the shaft may be case hardened, with a softer core. Not that unusual in splined axles etc. Good combination of toughness and wear resistance. I can't tell that though until I cut the excess off the length of a 944T input shaft and do a transverse hardness survey. More speculation....

I still intend to try this idea out anyways.

 

[Scott]

Re: Audi 016 goes Bang!

What is interchangeable with a 016?
01e?
01x?
I mean without a new adapting plate and so on...
I do not know what to do. My 016 work well but i need a longher R/P, LSD etc etc...
What I must do?

The 01E 0A2 and 01X all contain the 016 bolt pattern, it is the input shaft that differs, the pilot bearing is mounted in the flywheel for the 01X, 01E, and 0A2 whereas the pilot bearing for the 016 is in the crankshaft (a difference of about 5/8 of an inch).

 

[Julian]

Quick update:

I've now got a 944 S2 trans (I wanted the shorter diff ratio). That and my 016 are being stripped down now. Once they're apart we'll see which way to go. Hopefully next week we'll have the answer.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Brett James-McCall]

I have got a 01X. I have adapted Kennedy's 016 adaptaor plate to work with the trans. It consists of getting a new drive plate made as the input shaft is different and larger, its also slightly further back for the spline engagement. Also had to make up a new pilot bearing adaptor to go with the new roller bearing.

All said and done its all theoretical, as I am still building the car. It all fits together, but it still has to run and put the power down.

 

[Julian]

Update time:

Both Audi and 944 S2 trans are apart now. After looking at it all side by side, the plan is to go with machining and resplining the 944 input shaft to match the 016 setup. Also, machining out of a couple of bearing housings in the alloy front case of the 016 then swap in the 944 bearings, and machine out around the ring gear. All as proposed by Pete earlier in this thread.

Photos attached. In the pics, the upper shaft is 944, the lower is Audi. 5th, 1st, reverse and 2nd gears are all in the same locations. However, 2nd gear in 944 trans is about 4 mm wider. As previously mentioned, 3rd and 4th gear locations are a little towards the engine on the 944 box as well as being about 4 and 2 mm wider respectively.

At this stage we've left the 944 output shaft assembled as no need to pull apart.

Photos of components attached. Hopefully in a couple of weeks or so the machinist and spliner will be able to get the work done and we can see about putting it all back together.

A fair bit of work and cost will be involved. So, assuming this all works, I'd say only worth thinking about if you have an existing Audi 016 in your car and want/need to beef it up, or like the idea of a taller 944 turbo diff.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Great work Julian. Looking forward to more documentation and photos. This surely will be a valued asset to the mid-engine crowd.