bellhousings flywheels, and clutches

[Jim Rosenthal]

I would appreciate any information that you all would care to supply on the options available for all the pieces between a 302 engine and a ZF 5DS25-2 transaxle. There seem to be a number of ways to put these two items together and I would like to know what the choices are before a decision is made. The driveline is going in a monocoque car whose chassis will be a duplicate of the original GT40 steel tub. Any advice or sources wuld be welcome.

 

[Frank Catt]

Jim, I tried your E mail but it came back! I have mated a 302 to ZF 25/2 gearbox on Robins "yellow peril" I used a Mallock bell housing with AP Racing 9.5inch clutch and hydraulic release bearing. I had to makle and modify quite a few parts, but it do'es all go in and has worked successfully on the tracks for the last two years. Call me if you want further detail. Frank

 

Hi Jim
as you know I was trying to get an original MK1 bellhouse ZF DS 25-1 re cast and the rear flange modified to mate to the ZF DS 25-2 The guy that specializes in bellhousings had all the parts for six month and did nothing except feed me lies about his progress. I then went to Malocks but was told they would have to have an order for five castings to go ahead. A friend of mine has just persuaded them to cast one for him but without machining. The problem is the bottom mounting lugs on the Malock bellhousing are not in the right place for your Monocoque, they are positioned on the engine side of the housing and not on the gearbox side.
I ended up going to Bob Putnam who very kindle sold me an ERA housing for $750
this as you probably know is a straight bolt up job except for shortening the input shaft by . 25".
The easy thing about the ERA bellhouse is that it fits without any extra modification.
I used an alloy fly wheel with standard 157 tooth Ford Mustang ring gear 10.5 "Ford Motor sport clutch.
If you are against using the ERA item because it has no bottom mounting lugs then you might be able to get one to an original pattern from Brian Wingfield, or go to Johnny Neilson at www.autoart.net Johnny is a great guy for original parts as long as you can stand the price.

If you go down the original rout then you will need a flywheel with 115 or 117 tooth ring gear to fit, I understand that the original ring gear came from an Austin A35 or A40. I rang Tilton about a flywheel and clutch and spoke to their technical director, He said that they had made flywheels for Safir in the 80's with 115 tooth ring gear fly cut into the steel. He said to run one off for me would be $1000 I guess he did not want the job. You could however consider a Tilton Modular Housing with flywheel and clutch. You would have to machine the gearbox plate to except the ZF. and you would need to make depth checks to make sure they will go together.
Regards,
Chris.

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Melia ]

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Melia ]

 

[Gregg]

Jim,
Another source would be Kennedy Engineering. They are in Calif. Telephone number is (661) 272-1147. Ask for Brett or Hobert. Good luck

I maybe in Baltimore the weekend of the 15th. Is it possible to swing by and see your car? Thanks

[ February 06, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg ]

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Gregg: you could absolutely see it if it were here, but it isn't. The body parts are in Ohio, the engine and transaxle are here, the monocoque is in NZ being welded together, and the author of all this confusion- me- is running around like a one-legged man in a butt-kicking contest hoping all these bits will fit together. HOWEVER, we are aiming for the car to be done in July, and running around on it's own wheels. And once it's here, one and all are welcome any time.

 

My Mallock RML GT40 has a 351W motor with modified Ford Granada flywheel, Tilton 7.25" four plate clutch pack, Mallock bell housing and ZF 5DS25/2. I sought advice from Tilton who spec'd the clutch pack and release bearing. The pedal pressure is effortless.

Using the Ford flywheel (and its mating starter motor)inside the Mallock bellhousing allows for the powertrain to sit at the lowest possible position in the chassis, therefore giving the lowest C of G

 

[Gary Gibbs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Notley:
Tilton 7.25" four plate clutch pack, Mallock bell housing and ZF 5DS25/2. I sought advice from Tilton who spec'd the clutch pack and release bearing. The pedal pressure is effortless.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Chris. I was considering a Tilton clutch setup, but had a few questions:
1.) Do you have all of the part number and/or specs on the tilton setup?

2.) Is the belhousing the standard 4" depth front to back? I was wondering if I could fit a multi-disk clutch in that length housing.

3.) Is it a hydraulic release bearing or does it use a fork and external cylinder?

4.) You mentioned the effortless clutch pedal action. How is the modulation? Does it act like a switch on engagement or can you slip the clutch as desired?

Thanks for the input

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Gary / Chris,

Below is a pic of the ZF Chris has used:

For more pics of Chris's superb car, visit:
Ray Mallock Visit - Chris Notley's GT40

regards

Paul Thompson

ps - Chris, have you driven her in anger yet? - when we spoke at Autosport, you had just had the Motec mapped.

 

Thanks to Paul for posting the pictures and which I had not seen before. Since the Autosport Show the engine has been back on the dyno to complete the Motec mapping and also give it some running hours. Its now back in the chassis and waiting for some decent weather for a shakedown at either Silverstone or Rockingham.

 

Hi all,

Tell me if I'm way out in left field with this thought, and I realize there was a thread about welding on an aluminum casting where many told Eric "Don't do it".

My thought is, why can't the bellhousing of the popular getrags be cut, then an adapter plate welded to the 'cut' casting that would mate with the normal V-8 bellhousing/clutch setup? I spoke to a fabricator last week about it and he said it has a possibility of success. The shaft would have to be measured and compared to the V-8. He wasn't too concerned about the welding of cast aluminum.

I'm not as technical as many on this forum, but I just think it might could be done. I'm anxious about Robert (RF) trying that 01E 6 speed which he said has a longer shaft than the 016.

Anyway, is this possible?


Jim,
Your car might be done in July? That's awesome!!!

Have fun!

John

 

Ok John you guessed what i am attempting, i didn't want to give out too much info cause i hate being told something cant be done so i will post i the diy section what i am doing

 

Eric,

Thanks again for the photos.

Have fun!

John

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I am hoping the car will be done in July, and here to play with. My dream is to have the car here in July and be able to bring it to Monterey in August. I don't expect to have the car on display in any official way, but it would be nice to be driving around there in a 'new' GT40.
The folks at Safir have found me a bellhousing we are going to use. Likely we will also use the Tilton clutch mentioned above, or its' AP equivalent. I am not keen on the hydraulic release bearing, only because cars like this tend to get left alone for a long time and then the seals dry out, contract- and then you get in the car and step on the clutch and the whole thing goes blooey. If I use an external hydraulic cylinder and it springs a leak, it is much easier to change it- if I have to change the hydraulic release bearing assembly it means taking the driveline out of the car to get to it. Easier than on most cars, but still no picnic especially in my 'shade-tree' garage. Does anyone have any experience with the hydraulic release bearings that could comment on their reliability? I would be glad to have some information on this before I have to make a choice and spend the $$$.

 

[M.B]

Jim !
You got a PM.

 

[OMeyer]

Jim - I have to agree with you about not wanting to use the hydraulic release bearing set up. Having just dealt with a hydraulic clutch problem (see my recent post under the "DIY" section) my advice is if you can avoid it, you should. It's just one more thing to go wrong at the worst time. The more simple you can keep things, the better off you will be. There's nothing more annoying than to hear that you will have to remove the motor to replace those parts because the clutch won't disengage properly.
Best regards, Orin Meyer

 

Jim, from what I've heard from Dragon Motor Cars, they don't work well at all, not enough movement. They have a Bill Mitchell, Motown Motors small block 427 mated to a Richmond trans. It let them down too many times to keep it.

 

[Gary Gibbs]

Has anyone come across low cost options for the clutch fork for a ZF trans? It seems these can be steep.

 

[Gary Gibbs]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Gary / Chris,&lt;P&gt;Below is a pic of the ZF Chris has used:&lt;BR&gt;

&lt;P&gt;For more pics of Chris's superb car, visit:&lt;BR&gt;&lt;A HREF="http://www.gtd40club.co.uk/Ray%20Mallock%20Visit.htm" TARGET=_blank&gt;Ray Mallock Visit - Chris Notley's GT40&lt;/a&gt;&lt;P&gt;regards&lt;P&gt;Paul Thompson&lt;P&gt;ps - Chris, have you driven her in anger yet? - when we spoke at Autosport, you had just had the Motec mapped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who makes this bearing and collar that attaches to the fork? I have my ZF which includes a cross shaft and fork. I need to buy the collar and throwout (with 44 mm contact diameter with radius) like that pictured as soon as possible. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gary

 

Hi Jim, I hope your project is moving along well. I mated a Boss 302 to a ZF/2 using a bellhousing from ERA. The clutch, flywheel, release bearing, etc are McLeod. So... the issues I had to solve were; 1) My engine is mounted very low in the car so I had to trim the bellhousing casting lump where the starter pinion gear sits. Trim everything off to the minimum then cover with a piece of 0.062 inch aluminum sheet. 2) You will probably have to cut a notch and weld a bit of circular channel in the cross member that runs under the engine/trans - clearance for the lower starter flange/bolt. 3) I had to machine 0.200 inch off the end of the input shaft of the ZF - it was contacting the bottom of the pilot bearing counter bore in the end of the crank. 4) Now is the time to work out the linkage and placement of the clutch slave cylinder. Install the adapter and CV on that side of the ZF while you are working out the geometry. Drop me a line if you need pictures.

 

[JimmyMac]

Gentlemen,
This is an old thread but can anybody shed any more light on Gary's request for a source for the ZF collar and throw out and give me a part number for the Tilton clutch recommended earlier.
Here is a shot of the front of my own ZF/2 with RBT bellhousing.