Current State of GT40 Market

[Seymour Snerd]

SpyderMike that was the type of response I was talking about. No one asked about how you feel about your car or anyone else (and I asked for people not to get like that) for that matter. This is a car forum and we are all nuts about cars in our own way I thought that was a given. What was asked was an economic question not an emotional one.

Excuse me, Damian, but your posts are far worse examples of thread-highjacking than Mike's are ever going to be. The original question was "what are GT40 replicas selling for and what attributes affect those prices?" If you have any data to offer, let's hear it. But that pretty much requires you to own one or have sold one, or to know someone who has.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Thanks Alan, I agree. Tough to get a true sense of where prices really are.

Just to be a little more specific, now that I think about it some more, back in Feb. or so it was my belief based on a couple sales that a near new SPF (and there were several at the time) was selling for around $85 +/- $10K. I haven't paid too much attention to the other brands but my recollection is they tended to be more "used" and seemed to hover around the 50-70 that Howard mentions.

 

[Damian]

At no point did I thread jack but if any of you think I did than O.K. As for proof this whole thread is filled with (just look at the previous post) #'s to prove my point so again where did I go OT? I guess we can all see who is thinking emotionally and who isn't!!!!!!!!! Let me state this again I have no skin in the game and that gives me the luxury of looking at this without emotions clouding my judgment.

 

[Jack Duha]

An owner of a Aerial Atom mentioned to me that he figured that just having the California SB100 registration finished was worth $10K.

 

[Cliff Beer]

Cliff, I agree, my question is where is that intersection today and what are the factors that are impacting them...

I understand. Yes, I guess that's the difficult factual point here as we don't have a NADA "blue book" type market for our niche GT40s. I realize this is your main point and I guess I don't have any hard data to contribute here.

What I can say from first hand experience is that it doesn't matter what a guy is asking for his GT40. I bought a very nice '02 CAV from a very nice guy on this forum for $50K in 2006 when he was asking $72K for the car. $50K just happened to be what I was willing to pay, and what he was willing to accept...in other words the "market" price while realizing, of course, that the "market" is really a composit of all comparable transactions within some time frame - some will be on the low side, some on the high side, but overall there's a statistical average/mean in there somewhere. So, personally, it doesn't make any difference to me what a guy is asking for his car...I'm the buyer, so, ultimately, I'll set the price of any final sale. In other words, just because a guy thinks his car is the best thing since sliced bread I'm paying what I'm comfortable with and not a penny more regardless.

I don't mean to thread jack, but there's an interesting related topic buried in here which is probably of some interest to internet/business types (like me): how does "reputation" affect the "market" for such items as a GT40? When I boughy my CAV it was a fast and easy transaction - I wired the money and he popped the car in a transporter...no escrow of prepurchase inspection or mucking about. The seller was (and is) a very good guy who was known on this forum with good "reputation" value. It would have been a very different transaction without the "reputation" element. Just a thought.

 

[Alex]

The kit car market is unique, especially at the higher end.

Somebody, like us, who's into it will try to get a car for pennies on the dollar. We'll argue why the car doesn't deserve a top premium price tag, because of the parts used, or because it was self-assembled.

So the trick is not to sell to this market. You're looking for somebody who loves the idea/concept of what you have and is willing to pay for it.

I've seen a donor 5.0 ffr cobra go for 90k up here. One of my old work colleagues was willing to trade his gallardo straight up for my cobra after 1 drive in it (it only took a five minute spirited jaunt in it for him to see it was superior to his lambo in everyway, save creature comforts and safety).

If you have (for e.g.,) a cobra and try to sell it on ebay, ffrcobra.com, or cobracountry (or whatever it's called), expect to get kicked in the balls - the people who stop there know then can knock it down by using the typical kit car arguments, so you have to avoid them. Tedious - yes. Longer sale time - yes. But higher prices in the end.

This isn't a comment about "the market" but more about my own thinking: when I first started looking I thought Roush was the way to go. But I almost immediately noticed a far out-of-proportion number of problem reports from Roush owners. Then when I compared prices while carefully accounting for what came with the engines from different vendors (eg ign. box, bell housing, clutch, etc.) I concluded that the several thousand-dollar Roush tax was for vapor and that I wasn't going to pay it. Will I be sorry at resale time? Maybe. Or maybe that day never comes.

Same here - I was initially going to buy a rousch 427r for my cobra, but saw the sheer number of problems people were having with their engines. Plus the warranty was hit or miss, so it was like 'why bother'.

Resale ... who knows. It might have an impact because a lot of people are stupid are want the namesake of something rather than the quality/performance, but I don't think any/many of us build with the idea of resale in mind.

 

[Howard Jones]

Assumming it's not a distress sale, a SERIOUS buyer who has money in hand and decided he wants to own a GT40 is limmited by the small number of cars for sale in a given year. There are surely exceptions but I bet it is something on the order of a dozen in the US each year. Some years, much less, a few years a little more.
If the buyer wants a car registered in his home state to avoid what can be a real issue with paperwork he may be limmited to a handfull of cars in a year. The seller knows this and also knows what it would cost to reproduce a like car. Parts cost, labor (hobbie or professional) its still labor hours, the start cost of a "kit", time lost to complete the car, facility to do the work, tool cost, and state paperwork.
These things will set a floor under the value of the car in question. If the expenises have been borne several years before at a lower cost then it is completely reasonable to expect a break even or near break even posistion for the seller. He does control the avaibility of the car and therefor the supply of a very limmited product after all.

 

[Ian K]

A tangent, but one worth noting:

the ERA for sale at Cobra Country is/was Mark LeVea's. The interesting note, it is being sold by the administrator of the Estate of Mark LeVea.

I am hoping this does not mean Mark is no longer with us ...

Ian

 

[Keith]

No horse running, but I reckon that the Pantera guy's (name STILL escapes me - senior moments) RCR has to be THE best value I've seen in a long time if not for ever. So, why hasn't it been snapped up?

You want a replica (don't fool yourselves with this 'continuation' nonsense - they are ALL replicas) then please please buy Pantera guy's car, otherwise I will have to sell my 2 daughters and 2 grand daughters into slavery.

And THAT gentlemen, is where I place the market value of replica GT40's.

Night night...

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Interesting, I have spent my entire career in sales, I am now near retirement and I can say from my experience emotion plays a huge part in every sale. You have all heard the old cliche' "sell the sizzle not the sausage"? Well the sizzle is the emotion. Emotion is why you want it, logic is the reasons you give your wife to justify the purchase.
What is the GT40 market doing? I suspect that given the state of the world economy and the uncertainty it has engendered, prices would be deflated.

 

[Keith]

Wife? Pete, you want me to devalue my offering? :laugh:

PS Sizzle is good, but she didn't.:quirk:

 

[EGLITOM]

Pantera Guy = Ron McCall

username "pantera1889"

His RCR is a no nonsense racetype GT40. Great value for price.

TOM

 

[chuck smith]

I think the Roush motor does command a premium, it is a well known entity with a good reputation. A solid CAV with a 347 and ZF should go for 65-75K now, an SPF with a Roush-72-84K. I do not think that the ERA should command more than an SPF and in fact somewhat less if homebuilt.the market has bounced back somewhat from a year ago for these cars, and may be because the used market is scarce right now and most with one for sale do not need to fire sale it. good upgrades that warrant a premium would be stack EFI, webers and being fullyh sorted out< no small feat with these cars. chuck

 

[EGLITOM]

In a time when you have top notch mechanics working for peanuts (mine runs me $25 hr. and that's before negotiations) people are trying to charge big money for the work that they have done and that's just not realistic.

A car that sells for around 50K in kit form and than over 100K complete (used) is just silly. I don't care what you have in the thing motor / trans wise at most you would be looking at 100K for a brand spanking NEW CAR complete so how one charges that used boggles my mind. I am looking at the SLC which I will build once my current project is FINISHED (e30 318 to e30 M3 complete conversion with body conversion and s14 motor / drive train)

Damian

A few thoughts from my side. Having experience in similar projects like your current one, let me express that the skills necesarry and costs involved are not comparable at all. It is something completly different to build a component car instead of doing a factory car conversion.

Thus i doubt that the skills to do so can be aquired in the market for 25$/hr.

As soon you start your SLC project you will see that it definitely matters which drivetrain you put into your car, for both the cars value and your account level. Otherwise a 4 banger gt40 would command as much as one with a high spec drivetrain. There is a connection between performance, reliability and the value resulting from this. Depending on what the future owner is focused on he is open to spend money for it or not. THis said it is as true for the buyer to find to car suiting his needs and budget, it is also true for the seller to find the buyer who is valueing the car in its configuration.

Used versus new: Most likely a used GT40 is debugged, a new one ??

TOM

 

[Randy V]

Damian

A few thoughts from my side. Having experience in similar projects like your current one, let me express that the skills necesarry and costs involved are not comparable at all. It is something completly different to build a component car instead of doing a factory car conversion.

Thus i doubt that the skills to do so can be aquired in the market for 25$/hr.

As soon you start your SLC project you will see that it definitely matters which drivetrain you put into your car, for both the cars value and your account level. Otherwise a 4 banger gt40 would command as much as one with a high spec drivetrain. There is a connection between performance, reliability and the value resulting from this. Depending on what the future owner is focused on he is open to spend money for it or not. THis said it is as true for the buyer to find to car suiting his needs and budget, it is also true for the seller to find the buyer who is valueing the car in its configuration.

Used versus new: Most likely a used GT40 is debugged, a new one ??

TOM

Quite honestly - every word you said was about to leave my finger tips on my own post...

---

Once Damian has some skin in the game in terms of creating a car like the SL-C or a GT40 from a bunch of components - he will be a changed man...

---
A couple of additional points that Tom touched on above...

The Value is what it is appraised for by either buyer or seller or independant party. This value might be three different dollar figures with a very wide range.

The Worth is what the Seller is willing to sell it for and the buyer is willing to pay.

The Value of a car and the Worth of the car are two entirely different things - but the difference between them is reduced to nothing from the seller's perspective once an agreement to sell has been made..

---

And finally - emotion...

Emotion plays a HUGE role in specialty cars like these... You can never ever discount the emotion behind the motivated seller or buyer. It will always be a factor.

 

[Ian Clark]

"An economic question was asked, not an emotional one"

The way I see it, you can be emotional about how much or little of your net worth was lost through the ownership of a GT40 replica.

OR

You can be emotional about what you're buying because you're living a dream, that's where most if not all Forum members are IMHO.

If you're not emotional about a GT40 purchase why are you here?

Economically, a pro built quality brand name GT40 costs a lot of money to build, that's a fact. Take out the labour in dollars and value in expertise and see how you do.

I take my hat off to you guys because of the incredible cars being built here. So a home built car is still a valid and valuable car if it's done right with the right bits.

It's easy to get predatory on pricing and sometimes somebody really has to raise cash and a car goes cheap, guess you were in the right place at the right time.

Over a five year period you'll loose less money (depreciation) on a top shelf GT40 replica than any mass produced vehicle of equal aquisition cost. That's also a fact.

A few years back, Angelo who owns our Gulf 1075 tribute car, had the honour of leading the Drivers Parade at the Toronto Indy driving his CAV GT40. All I can say is that he got his moneys worth, the car could have burst into flames and turned to cinder after that lap and it wouldn't matter.

Prices have eased off a bit, did anyone hear about the recession, duh... nothing like what's happened to boats, RVs, planes, etc. so let's get back to enjoying our cars.

Nothing beats a GT40 for seat of the pants excitement, or public reaction, not at car shows, not on the street and not in your garage. That's a fact and worth a lot too!

Cheers

 

[Alex]

nothing beats a gt40 for seat of the pants excitement, or public reaction, not at car shows, not on the street and not in your garage. That's a fact and worth a lot too!

slc > *

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

If you look at the troubles that one of our members had with an engine which was supposedly from a reliable builder (Ceslaw's RCR GT40) I would think that who built the engine matters a great deal indeed. Same with the transaxle. Mine was done by a reputable shop in California- and Ron McCall ("Pantera Guy, sorry, Ron!) had to do parts of it over separate from changing it over to an external clutch release system. If I were looking at a used GT40, I think who built the engine and ZF would be prime matters of interest. You can look at the other stuff and see it work. Who knows what's inside those black boxes except the guys who put it all in there?

The order of desirability seems to be RCR ERA and SPF in a tie, with CAV close behind, as near as I can tell. The market is so small that each individual sale has way too much effect on what folks think about what the cars are worth.

Interestingly, the value of original cars goes up and up. But it does not seem to drag the value of Mark V cars or replicas up. Two different audiences, it seems to me.

One thing we haven't talked about is the value that one assigns to the car for insurance purposes. I guess I'll have to deal with that soon; the current insurance on mine just covers assembly and storage etc, but when we start driving it to sort it out, things will change.

 

[Kevin L]

A tangent, but one worth noting:

the ERA for sale at Cobra Country is/was Mark LeVea's. The interesting note, it is being sold by the administrator of the Estate of Mark LeVea.

I am hoping this does not mean Mark is no longer with us ...

Ian

Ian, you are correct, Mark passed away last January. It is a shame

 

[Kevin L]

I think the Roush motor does command a premium, it is a well known entity with a good reputation. A solid CAV with a 347 and ZF should go for 65-75K now, an SPF with a Roush-72-84K. I do not think that the ERA should command more than an SPF and in fact somewhat less if homebuilt.the market has bounced back somewhat from a year ago for these cars, and may be because the used market is scarce right now and most with one for sale do not need to fire sale it. good upgrades that warrant a premium would be stack EFI, webers and being fullyh sorted out< no small feat with these cars. chuck

Thanks Chuck, my research (limited as it might be due to sales) indicates similar results yet is seems to be a problem convincing the sellers of this