KEVIN, You've certainly given me pause to ponder. Many of those who responded to your initial question (except Damian who I have to admit IMO came across as almost angry...sorry) have provided some great insight. When I bought my CAV I admit emotion played a HUGE role. I probably should have looked a bit more into engine and tranny and this has probably cost me in terms of overall value in my car. I still have a great car but it could be better with a ZF lets say. Which brings me to my point. Cars from RCR, ERA, SPF and CAV can be built to your taste. RCR, CAV can be bought as "kits" while the SPF and ERA are turn-key cars. It would be interesting to find out what each "manufacturer" would ask $ wise for a completed car from their shop less engine and trans. Then it's up to the purchaser to determine what engine and tranny to put in the car which I would think would help determine overall cost and possible resale value. A car with a 427 big block and ZF trans whether it be a SPF RCR CAV or what ever is going to demand a higher price I would think then someone with a basic 302 with Audi trans. These factors IMHO will help determine pricing and resale. Speaking for myself if I sold my car right now I know I would sell it at a lower price then I would if it had a Holman Moody engine with a ZF box. But, there are great deals out there right now and if a person looks and has patience and can deal with his or her emotions they can find a car with all the right stuff for a very good price. I will add.....its a toss up for me as to whether it was built by a "manufacturer" or an individual. Mine is a factory CAV built car so I have their knowledge and experience behind the car. But I would have no qualms in buying a car built by an enthusiast. Like Chuck's RCR car. Read his build thread and anyone would be happy to own that car. Fantastic quality and built with passion and pride. Thanks for posting your question.
Current State of GT40 Market
- Thread starter fsts2k
- Start date
To the extent you believe auctions represent market value (including buyer & seller premiums), there's an Gulf SPF Mk I with a Roush motor & ZF trans listed at Russo & Steele for the Monterey auction in August. Assuming the reserve is met, that will provide at least one data point for that individual car (a fairly early build) at that particular venue. Adjust as necessary for other mfgrs., different markets, etc.,etc..
I recall that there was a red SPF there last year, don't recall if it sold or for what.
I recall that there was a red SPF there last year, don't recall if it sold or for what.
Jimmy, I agree, the responses have been very helpful. I have been reading this forum since 99 (I believe) and finally find myself in a position that I can purchase one of these fine machines. I am aware of most manufacturers and their products, at least as aware as one can be by reading about them. (I am not going to make my preference public because I don't believe it is relevant to this discussion)
The struggle I have is that I cannot afford to let me emotions run wild and since the purchase will be a stretch, I need to justify each dollar I spend on a car that serves no value other than to put a huge smile on my face.
Therefore (due to my odd personality) I need to first justify what is fair and then understand the reasons a car might be priced higher than others. As others have said, there is no KBB for replicas, therefore the market is set by a limited number of transactions across products that can vary wildly.. Is a 427 more valuable than a strung out 302? Not to me but that does not necessarily mean I wouldn't take one.
In summary this thread has helped me understand where the market sentiment is which I believe is a good indicator of the market. There will always be outliers and people will purchase a car for much higher (or lower) than the market due to a variety of issues. With that said, I believe that if I am patient I will be able to find the car I want for the price I like... MK1 with wide gulf flares (or buy a MK1 for the right price and graft those puppies on)
Kevin
The struggle I have is that I cannot afford to let me emotions run wild and since the purchase will be a stretch, I need to justify each dollar I spend on a car that serves no value other than to put a huge smile on my face.
Therefore (due to my odd personality) I need to first justify what is fair and then understand the reasons a car might be priced higher than others. As others have said, there is no KBB for replicas, therefore the market is set by a limited number of transactions across products that can vary wildly.. Is a 427 more valuable than a strung out 302? Not to me but that does not necessarily mean I wouldn't take one.
In summary this thread has helped me understand where the market sentiment is which I believe is a good indicator of the market. There will always be outliers and people will purchase a car for much higher (or lower) than the market due to a variety of issues. With that said, I believe that if I am patient I will be able to find the car I want for the price I like... MK1 with wide gulf flares (or buy a MK1 for the right price and graft those puppies on)
Kevin
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
+1well said.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
When I was in college in a group that bought and sold a lot of motorcycles a friend once pointed out an effective way to get that seller convinced: show up at the seller's house with your offer price in cash in a windowed envelope, and keep it visible during the entire visit, especially when you're getting ready to leave (like, slap it against your palm as you apologize for having to run to go look at another car).
Now granted, in those days we were talking about a relatively small stack of 20s, but the principle is the same. Here it would just be a large stack of 100s. All the better...
keep looking. I sold my SPF MK11 with a Roush 427SR for 84K a year and a half ago and a 427FE equipped SPF MK11 went for about the same from Olthoff around the same time. An SPF MK11 with 427 roush , titanium/black stripes went for 75 here a while back, brand new. I would definitly say the SPF cars are the most sought after and the most accurate, although I prefer my CAV. MK1 cars are more popular also. Although ERA builds a great product, I think they have been out classed by the newer entries. Most any home built will be generally harder to sell, for obvious reasons.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
That attempt to force a dichotomy between economics and emotions was nonsense in the first place. But I loved everything you wrote in response.
As for getting back to enjoying our cars, I think what motivated this was at least one person's not yet having one to enjoy; my memory of being in that state is only a few months old so I sympathize 100% and I went at it exactly the way he is going now. So let's support all the "on the verge" people out there. It's a tough place to be; I've bought houses for less money.
An old friend who owned the local Harley dealership for many years summed it up best. After he had sold the H-D store he grew bored of "retirement" and came to our Ford dealership to sell cars and trucks. One day at lunch in our basement kitchen, after a really tough customer, he told me " I have sold a shithouse full of bikes to people who WANTED one, but I have NEVER sold one to anyone who NEEDED one!!!"
Thus lies the economic basis of GT40 sales........................
Thus lies the economic basis of GT40 sales........................
seems a simple matter of common sense to me. No ones needs a GT40, but by the same token why pay more than fair market value or less. realizing after it is too late that you paid far more than you should have, take the shine off the new purchase real fast. Remember, these things are like pretty woman, there is always another right around the corner prettier than the last one.
There is no question, SPF has a leg up because the market does not consider them "kits". I have seen several SPF cars go through reputable exotic dealers that would not touch my FF Cobra, no matter the spec or build quality or condition.
If you find the right uneducated buyer, you can get good money for a kit, but in general:
SPF GT40: 80k used
SPF Cobra: 35-40k
Other GT40: 50-70, depending
Other Cobra: 20k
Invested will be 1.5 to 2x in most cases. But let's put that into perspective:
Ferrari 360: 70-80k, used, new was 160-180k.
Ferrari 355: 55-65k used, new was 140-160k.
Lamborghini Gallardo: 90-100k used, new was 200-240k.
Lamborghini Murcielago: 130-200k used, new was 350k.
But in most case, the GT40 is going to level out at a steady value and stabilize. Because the cars are not maintenance problems (compared to a Ferrari for certain) and parts are cheap, and also the more they are driven the better they get sorted, I don't see the price changing over time much. Some of the exotics become almost unsellable if they get a reputation for maintenance nightmares.
In summary, I don't think building a replica is anymore costly than buying a new exotic. And as many have said, it's a very different experience. It just depends on what you want!
IT'S ONLY MONEY - YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU!
If you find the right uneducated buyer, you can get good money for a kit, but in general:
SPF GT40: 80k used
SPF Cobra: 35-40k
Other GT40: 50-70, depending
Other Cobra: 20k
Invested will be 1.5 to 2x in most cases. But let's put that into perspective:
Ferrari 360: 70-80k, used, new was 160-180k.
Ferrari 355: 55-65k used, new was 140-160k.
Lamborghini Gallardo: 90-100k used, new was 200-240k.
Lamborghini Murcielago: 130-200k used, new was 350k.
But in most case, the GT40 is going to level out at a steady value and stabilize. Because the cars are not maintenance problems (compared to a Ferrari for certain) and parts are cheap, and also the more they are driven the better they get sorted, I don't see the price changing over time much. Some of the exotics become almost unsellable if they get a reputation for maintenance nightmares.
In summary, I don't think building a replica is anymore costly than buying a new exotic. And as many have said, it's a very different experience. It just depends on what you want!
IT'S ONLY MONEY - YOU CAN'T TAKE IT WITH YOU!
Ron Earp
Admin
I feel that the GT40 market has fundamentally changed over the last few years, although I've only been observing the market for eleven years or so. Some of you guys have been at it for decades, but still, in the last few years I think we’ve observed the biggest shift in the market since the early days of the first replicas.<o
></o>
<o> </o>
It used to be the only way you could get a GT40 replica was to call up GTD (for example in the UK) or ERA (about the only option in the USA) and order up a kit. Then, choose to build it or having it built to your specifications. The kits were expensive, and, when the car was done to a high specifiction the finished product could easily have you out of pocket $100k+ - and this was back 10-15 years ago. Used cars were relatively rare because there were so few GT40 replicas around in the hands of owners. Furthermore, there were fewer replica companies in business, less competition, and quite naturally that bred higher prices.<o></o>
<o> </o>
Today there are many high quality companies producing GT40 kits and most even produce turn key cars. I think of these companies SPF has had a unique impact on the market in a number of ways that are not related to quality of their product or other companies’ products. Because SPF already had a strong market following with their Cobras they were really able to bring GT40s to a larger group of replicar owners. Before SPF was involved with GT40s a replicar owner-to-be really had to seek out a niche company that produced a GT40, i.e., s/he had to know about the car and where to look, and, because most companies produced kits s/he had to be up for building or contracting a builder. SPF changed that by only offering turn key minus replicas thus opening up to a larger audience. <o></o>
<o> </o>
Additionally, with the SPF GT40 replica potential new owners were literally exposed to the Ford GT40 for the first time in a SPF showroom, car show, or advertisement. I have communicated with SPF owners who didn’t even know what a GT40 was until they saw one, then, for various reasons they purchased one in short order. In my opinion this has had a great side effect for the GT40 community – sometimes you can pickup a SPF car (and other makes too) for far less than it’d cost you to assemble it because the owner found out the compromises of ownership were more than they were willing to put up with. However, with the sheer number of SPF cars that have been sold I think there have been changes in the supply/demand relationship in that the supply now is greater than the demand. It wasn’t long ago there were some cars for sale, with engine and ZF, for $75k, and that is hard to beat. <o></o>
<o> </o>
At any rate, as others have written a car is worth is only as much as a buyer is willing to pay. There are some fantastic GT40 bargains for sale right now on this site as well as other locations. Being a buyer now is probably better than any time in recent history. Wish I was flush with cash! <o></o><o></o><o></o><o></o>
<o> </o>
></o><o
> </o>It used to be the only way you could get a GT40 replica was to call up GTD (for example in the UK) or ERA (about the only option in the USA) and order up a kit. Then, choose to build it or having it built to your specifications. The kits were expensive, and, when the car was done to a high specifiction the finished product could easily have you out of pocket $100k+ - and this was back 10-15 years ago. Used cars were relatively rare because there were so few GT40 replicas around in the hands of owners. Furthermore, there were fewer replica companies in business, less competition, and quite naturally that bred higher prices.<o
></o><o
> </o>Today there are many high quality companies producing GT40 kits and most even produce turn key cars. I think of these companies SPF has had a unique impact on the market in a number of ways that are not related to quality of their product or other companies’ products. Because SPF already had a strong market following with their Cobras they were really able to bring GT40s to a larger group of replicar owners. Before SPF was involved with GT40s a replicar owner-to-be really had to seek out a niche company that produced a GT40, i.e., s/he had to know about the car and where to look, and, because most companies produced kits s/he had to be up for building or contracting a builder. SPF changed that by only offering turn key minus replicas thus opening up to a larger audience. <o
></o><o
> </o>Additionally, with the SPF GT40 replica potential new owners were literally exposed to the Ford GT40 for the first time in a SPF showroom, car show, or advertisement. I have communicated with SPF owners who didn’t even know what a GT40 was until they saw one, then, for various reasons they purchased one in short order. In my opinion this has had a great side effect for the GT40 community – sometimes you can pickup a SPF car (and other makes too) for far less than it’d cost you to assemble it because the owner found out the compromises of ownership were more than they were willing to put up with. However, with the sheer number of SPF cars that have been sold I think there have been changes in the supply/demand relationship in that the supply now is greater than the demand. It wasn’t long ago there were some cars for sale, with engine and ZF, for $75k, and that is hard to beat. <o
></o><o
> </o>At any rate, as others have written a car is worth is only as much as a buyer is willing to pay. There are some fantastic GT40 bargains for sale right now on this site as well as other locations. Being a buyer now is probably better than any time in recent history. Wish I was flush with cash! <o
></o><o></o><o></o><o></o><o
> </o>It took me a while to learn that about pretty women... now I can't forget it; makes moving on difficult
Howard Jones
Supporter
Ron has hit on something. The impact of superperformance on the GT40 market and owner group/comunity.
The owner/bulider has drifted to owner/buyer. The result is some owners who would never consider building a car. Any car. They tend to be people of means with little time to devote to building a car.
Once the purchase is complete they also tend to have a limmited amount of time to enjoy the experiance. After a time something new catches the eye and the car is sold and the new interest is followed.
None of this is good or bad but it is a difference. I remember every rivet that went into Betty. Her weak clutch that I had to find a special replacement for. Her bad suspension geometery that taught me how to set up a track car. The time her engine blew up. It is the differencnce between a wife and a hooker. The hooker is money spent pleasure experianced. The wife is paid for with comitment, heartache, joy, and from time to time a little pain.
I like SPF cars, they are real nice. But they just don't evoke the though of hobby in me. But thats just me. To each his own.
The owner/bulider has drifted to owner/buyer. The result is some owners who would never consider building a car. Any car. They tend to be people of means with little time to devote to building a car.
Once the purchase is complete they also tend to have a limmited amount of time to enjoy the experiance. After a time something new catches the eye and the car is sold and the new interest is followed.
None of this is good or bad but it is a difference. I remember every rivet that went into Betty. Her weak clutch that I had to find a special replacement for. Her bad suspension geometery that taught me how to set up a track car. The time her engine blew up. It is the differencnce between a wife and a hooker. The hooker is money spent pleasure experianced. The wife is paid for with comitment, heartache, joy, and from time to time a little pain.
I like SPF cars, they are real nice. But they just don't evoke the though of hobby in me. But thats just me. To each his own.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
As the owner of an SPF roller doing my own "install" there's no way I'm going to compare my efforts to those of a scratch builder or a full kit builder.
But let me point out in my and the few other "self-installers" defense that an SPF roller is a lot closer to being a kit than most people think (with a lot of help from their marketing crap).
Part of that is the legitimate need for SPF to leave open options for different engine and installation decisions (eg. fuel pumps). But the majority of it because they (or at least mine) are neither finished nor very well put together.
Yeah, when I got it rolled so technically it was a roller. But that's about all it was qualified to do. I've already got 100 hrs or so in it just fixing sh*t, I'm not anywhere near done, and I don't even have my engine and transaxle yet.
So my SPF definitely gives me "the hobby thought."
This is becoming really interesting.
I recently did a review of the last 25 years for the Enthusiasts Club 25th anniversary and crave your indulgence in allowing me to quote from it.......
"Probably the major difference today is that we spend less time solving building problems. Dare I say it, the construction of a GT40 is more routine than it was then; there are standard parts which work well with other standard parts, and the whole car is more of an engineering exercise than a matter of modifying and assembling components from diverse sources. The choice is far greater today too. In addition to the space frame chassis that were only available then, we have the choice of more sophisticated space frames and monocoques in stainless steel, aluminium or even carbon fibre. The Essex V6 has given way to the almost-ubiquitous Ford 302, with the 289, 347, 351 or 427 and the occasional Rover or Chevy lump to add variety. The Renault gearbox, the UN1, has proved a strong, reliable and cheap favourite, particularly with beefed-up internals and a Quaife LSD or long fifth gear for touring. But that’s not the only choice with Porsche, Audi and ZFQ being modern alternatives, or an original ZF or even a Hewland DG300 or Kar Kraft T-44, if you can find one.
Articles on car builds still play a significant part in today’s magazine; there’s at least one feature in each edition, but their tenor is different. It’s possible to build cars today as a package - track cars with engine, clutch, gearbox and brakes to match, or road cars that are more tractable, perhaps - with every shade and combination in between. It’s become easier to build the modern replica, but skilled engineers continue to hold us in awe with beautifully fashioned suspension parts, sheet metal, body and paint work. They are a continuing inspiration to everyone planning or building a car. Also we have seen the emergence of specialist engineering firms, many of whom advertise in this magazine, who can do everything from fitting a radiator to building a complete car for the less skilled among us. We are proud to count a lot of them as members of the Club too.
Of course, the biggest difference today is that there are far more members owning more cars in almost every country in the free world, going to events, competing with them and displaying them. The magazine reflects the spread of UK membership, out from the South East into the regions, and the international flavour of the overseas membership."
I think the main change has been in the sheer number of beautifully built replicas on the roads today. Coupled with the appearance of the GT40 in computer games and the impact of the Ford GT, there is a new generation of knowledgeable, and often young, admirers of the marque.
Apologies for slight thread-creep, but the GT40 market is bound to be affected by the availability of good sources of kits and parts and quality secondhand cars, both being a result of the way the cars have spread.
I recently did a review of the last 25 years for the Enthusiasts Club 25th anniversary and crave your indulgence in allowing me to quote from it.......
"Probably the major difference today is that we spend less time solving building problems. Dare I say it, the construction of a GT40 is more routine than it was then; there are standard parts which work well with other standard parts, and the whole car is more of an engineering exercise than a matter of modifying and assembling components from diverse sources. The choice is far greater today too. In addition to the space frame chassis that were only available then, we have the choice of more sophisticated space frames and monocoques in stainless steel, aluminium or even carbon fibre. The Essex V6 has given way to the almost-ubiquitous Ford 302, with the 289, 347, 351 or 427 and the occasional Rover or Chevy lump to add variety. The Renault gearbox, the UN1, has proved a strong, reliable and cheap favourite, particularly with beefed-up internals and a Quaife LSD or long fifth gear for touring. But that’s not the only choice with Porsche, Audi and ZFQ being modern alternatives, or an original ZF or even a Hewland DG300 or Kar Kraft T-44, if you can find one.
Articles on car builds still play a significant part in today’s magazine; there’s at least one feature in each edition, but their tenor is different. It’s possible to build cars today as a package - track cars with engine, clutch, gearbox and brakes to match, or road cars that are more tractable, perhaps - with every shade and combination in between. It’s become easier to build the modern replica, but skilled engineers continue to hold us in awe with beautifully fashioned suspension parts, sheet metal, body and paint work. They are a continuing inspiration to everyone planning or building a car. Also we have seen the emergence of specialist engineering firms, many of whom advertise in this magazine, who can do everything from fitting a radiator to building a complete car for the less skilled among us. We are proud to count a lot of them as members of the Club too.
Of course, the biggest difference today is that there are far more members owning more cars in almost every country in the free world, going to events, competing with them and displaying them. The magazine reflects the spread of UK membership, out from the South East into the regions, and the international flavour of the overseas membership."
I think the main change has been in the sheer number of beautifully built replicas on the roads today. Coupled with the appearance of the GT40 in computer games and the impact of the Ford GT, there is a new generation of knowledgeable, and often young, admirers of the marque.
Apologies for slight thread-creep, but the GT40 market is bound to be affected by the availability of good sources of kits and parts and quality secondhand cars, both being a result of the way the cars have spread.
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Howard Jones
Supporter
Maybe I didn't say enough about how well the SPF is designed. It appears to me that compaired to my GTD of the last century the SPF is pretty much complete except for (and that is a very big except) the powertrain install and setup/tune.
But having made the orginal statement I would say in it's defence that the product has evolved to a point in the case of SPF's that it is quite different than 10 years ago.
Maybe a more fair thing to have said is in this case the hobbie has changed somewhat. For the most part for the better, It least for SPF customers. The SPF builder can get to the setup and tune portion in much less time. You guys still need to make it work effectively.
I hope I have said this in kind enough words because I really don't intend to offend.
But having made the orginal statement I would say in it's defence that the product has evolved to a point in the case of SPF's that it is quite different than 10 years ago.
Maybe a more fair thing to have said is in this case the hobbie has changed somewhat. For the most part for the better, It least for SPF customers. The SPF builder can get to the setup and tune portion in much less time. You guys still need to make it work effectively.
I hope I have said this in kind enough words because I really don't intend to offend.
I have to disagree. Based upon what I have seen bought and sold, ERAs still fetch a premium over SPF. It may have to do with the fact that there are more SPFs out there and they are built at a faster rate than ERAs, and therefore, the ERAs still have an "exclusivity" advantage. There are more second hand and unsold SPFs in the market, which tends to bring the price down.
As far as build quality, I am not too sure SPFs have that much of an advantage over ERA and CAV. While it may be closer to original spec, one could argue that is not necessarily a good thing. Both the SPF GT40R and the CAV GTR would also tend to be valued higher because of the race spec parts and more limited production. With SPF you have the official "GT40" license, with CAV you have the official "Gulf" license. Again, this may or may not affect value overall.
Bottom line and in general, I think ERAs still rule the roost overall resale/value wise, with SPF a close second. I'd place CAV in third. But, a well built and sorted GTD, Tornado, RF, or DRB/GT40 Australia might compete pricewise. Take Robin Batt's or Martin Weigold's GTDs, or Iain Pretty's RF. Very well sorted race cars.
Ian
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
ERA has been at this longer than any of the other builders of replica GT40s, and we've seen a lot of other builders come and go over the last several years- some of them went with a lot of our money and we had no car to show for it, either. I don't think ERA (despite their years in the business) competed nearly as briskly as they could have, because they left room in the market for all those, good and bad, who have come along since. I agree with Ron that SPF have changed the game considerably, both in build quality and numbers. People who would not have taken on an ERA kit build have been willing to buy and SPF GT40 and see it through being completed and sorted out. I suspect there are a lot of ERA cars out there that STILL aren't finished.
The market has also created the "high-end" builders of monocoques such as David Brown, Mirage, GOX, AutoArt, and those guys in the UK whose name I can't recall, dammit. Gelscoe, that's it. These guys do finished cars, at premium prices and at a leisurely pace, for a small number of individuals. Those builders were not out there ten or fifteen years ago- or I couldn't find them if they were.
What is interesting to me is that my struggle to build one of these cars has neatly paralleled the growing interest in them, almost exactly. When I started my project, there is no way Ford would have built a modern interpretation of their 60s LeMans winner. Times and interests change, though, and retro gets more and more desirable, especially since very few of us can afford an original GT40. Hence the current market proliferation.
The market has also created the "high-end" builders of monocoques such as David Brown, Mirage, GOX, AutoArt, and those guys in the UK whose name I can't recall, dammit. Gelscoe, that's it. These guys do finished cars, at premium prices and at a leisurely pace, for a small number of individuals. Those builders were not out there ten or fifteen years ago- or I couldn't find them if they were.
What is interesting to me is that my struggle to build one of these cars has neatly paralleled the growing interest in them, almost exactly. When I started my project, there is no way Ford would have built a modern interpretation of their 60s LeMans winner. Times and interests change, though, and retro gets more and more desirable, especially since very few of us can afford an original GT40. Hence the current market proliferation.
Unintentionally, I left RCR off my list. I still place them somewhere after CAV as far as resale value goes, but, again, well sorted examples like Dean Lampe's car should fare a bit better.
As far as Jim mentioning Gox, Gelscoe, Dave Brown, Mirage, Autoart - they work in such small numbers and are fine nuts, bolts and weld replicas as far as accuracy goes, that they definitely would command a premium, but I have yet to see one for sale second hand.
And, depending on how you view things, the Safir MkIVs definitely fetch premium dollars.
Ian
Jim Rosenthal
Supporter
Safir Mark Vs? They do when they sell, I suppose, Ian. They don't seem to sell very often, or if they do, I don't hear of it, despite keeping an eye out for them in SCM etc. The Hagerty Cars That Matter price guide lists them at $230K for the coupe in Condition 1, and $300K for the roadster. The build years are specified as 1981-2009, which is about right.
Interestingly, the Kar Kraft continuation Mark IVs, which are still trickling out, from what I can gather, are valued at $260K. I hardly think you could buy one for that, but perhaps I am wrong. It seems to me that the T44 transaxle alone cost $30K a few years back.
Interestingly, the Kar Kraft continuation Mark IVs, which are still trickling out, from what I can gather, are valued at $260K. I hardly think you could buy one for that, but perhaps I am wrong. It seems to me that the T44 transaxle alone cost $30K a few years back.