I never cease to be amazed!
- Thread starter Al Wohlstrom
- Start date
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
That's actually why I started posting here. Ron is a really good friend of mine, and I'm a regular visitor and reader of this site. But like all car forums, the "paddock" area had seemed to devolve into a daily barrage of "Obama/Democrats/people who don't think like me are idiots."
Just wanted to let Al and others know that there is another side to things, and that reasonable people can disagree without the poo flinging (some of which was done in the guise of "jokes").
That is all! In my view, political discussion is better done face to face. On the web, too easy for things to get read wrong and out of hand.
Then again, I think my dad (long dead) was the MOST right about it. He said, politics were personal and better kept to yourself. While I understand that may not be the best policy for everyone, and I sure violate it sometimes, it also makes a lot of sense to me.
Just wanted to let Al and others know that there is another side to things, and that reasonable people can disagree without the poo flinging (some of which was done in the guise of "jokes").
That is all! In my view, political discussion is better done face to face. On the web, too easy for things to get read wrong and out of hand.
Then again, I think my dad (long dead) was the MOST right about it. He said, politics were personal and better kept to yourself. While I understand that may not be the best policy for everyone, and I sure violate it sometimes, it also makes a lot of sense to me.
Mike, This thread started out as a discussion about illegal immigration into the US through Arizona. It has evolved into something quite different. Given the lawsuit by the US goverment yesterday against Arizona for a federal law that the US doesn't want to enforce, and a Arizona law to try to stem the flood of illegals and drug smugglers over the AZ border, I still think it is important. If the US government doesn't want to enforce the law or is making a half assed attempt at enforcement, the question that arises is why aren't they enforcing the law? In this economy, what is to be gained by having these people in our country illegally?
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
I think your last question is better directed at the US employers who hire "those people" since that is the primary reason nearly all of them are here.
We continue to come at this issue the wrong way. It is market driven, and no matter how much time and money we spend on walls, lawsuits, fences, guns, police, so long as there is a market for this behavior they will continue to come.
And, since there is no real way to eradicate the market, the best thing to do is accept it, regulate it, and tax it.
We continue to come at this issue the wrong way. It is market driven, and no matter how much time and money we spend on walls, lawsuits, fences, guns, police, so long as there is a market for this behavior they will continue to come.
And, since there is no real way to eradicate the market, the best thing to do is accept it, regulate it, and tax it.
Jeff,
That logic seems to make sense. I also believe in market driven solutions. If that is the solution, then let's use market driven solutions to all of our problems. Let's make drug possession legal...all drugs, as long as we tax them. Then the crack addict won't have to run on the sreet corner and Mary jane can be consumed in public. How about that..the government will get their taxes and we will get a reduction in criminals since possession will not be a criminal offense.
The only problem that I see is that this will not stop drug abuse and it may create a larger problem with higher rates of drug abuse by the general population. After all, we have tried to tax the living s**t out of tobacco (while government subsidises it) and that has not stopped hard core tobacco users from using that evil weed. In fact we have passed such stringent laws on tobacco smoking in public places, even stronger than public alcohol consumption, and tried to shame them into submission, but that hasn't helped.
I don't believe that the illegal immigration problem can be eliminated by free market approaches alone. There has to be a severe penalty on those citizens that ignore the rules. If we wanted to stop illegal immigrant hiring in this country, we would pass laws similar to the Patriot Act and allow spying on all employers, along with the extreme penalty of confiscation of all assets, bank accounts, and prison for the employers...everyone in the chain of command. Then let's see how many illegals are hired then. AND we need to enforce our borders at all costs. There is no reason to believe that it cannot be done if there is a will. The problem of human trafficing is on the rise along with drugs comming our way and our guns going their way. The reason people get involved is for the money and the fact that they stand a greater chance of success than a chance of being caught and prosecuted, and then sent to prison.
There is no fear of reprisal. I hate the fact that it will take this type of actions to stop it, but there seems to be no other human behavioral solution that works at this time.
Garry
That logic seems to make sense. I also believe in market driven solutions. If that is the solution, then let's use market driven solutions to all of our problems. Let's make drug possession legal...all drugs, as long as we tax them. Then the crack addict won't have to run on the sreet corner and Mary jane can be consumed in public. How about that..the government will get their taxes and we will get a reduction in criminals since possession will not be a criminal offense.
The only problem that I see is that this will not stop drug abuse and it may create a larger problem with higher rates of drug abuse by the general population. After all, we have tried to tax the living s**t out of tobacco (while government subsidises it) and that has not stopped hard core tobacco users from using that evil weed. In fact we have passed such stringent laws on tobacco smoking in public places, even stronger than public alcohol consumption, and tried to shame them into submission, but that hasn't helped.
I don't believe that the illegal immigration problem can be eliminated by free market approaches alone. There has to be a severe penalty on those citizens that ignore the rules. If we wanted to stop illegal immigrant hiring in this country, we would pass laws similar to the Patriot Act and allow spying on all employers, along with the extreme penalty of confiscation of all assets, bank accounts, and prison for the employers...everyone in the chain of command. Then let's see how many illegals are hired then. AND we need to enforce our borders at all costs. There is no reason to believe that it cannot be done if there is a will. The problem of human trafficing is on the rise along with drugs comming our way and our guns going their way. The reason people get involved is for the money and the fact that they stand a greater chance of success than a chance of being caught and prosecuted, and then sent to prison.
There is no fear of reprisal. I hate the fact that it will take this type of actions to stop it, but there seems to be no other human behavioral solution that works at this time.
Garry
Jim, Give it a rest. It was a reasonable question.
Jeff Young
GT40s Supporter
I firmly believe in legalization and taxation of drugs, coupled with treatment programs for addicts and education. The cost of the "war on drugs" is staggering with little benefit, in my view.
Prohibition didn't work with alcohol, it won't work with drugs. Taxing, regulating and educating HAS worked with both alcohol and tobacco. check consumption figures for each versus 1960 and 1920 and 1880 etc.
Based on that, I am convinced that opening the borders, taxing and regulating immigration is THE only solution to this "problem."
Prohibition didn't work with alcohol, it won't work with drugs. Taxing, regulating and educating HAS worked with both alcohol and tobacco. check consumption figures for each versus 1960 and 1920 and 1880 etc.
Based on that, I am convinced that opening the borders, taxing and regulating immigration is THE only solution to this "problem."
That works for me, but how do we stop the present flow of illegals if the government doesn't want to do their job? It's not impossible, other countries do it.
Geeez, will they call that profiling?
Gotta love that old "....love the smell of napalm in the morning" attitude, Jack! Better than my "soldier every 100 yards with an automatic weapon and orders to shoot to kill"......and if we could program the drones to do the drops, we could have something going there!
Cheers from Doug!
God, If I had suggested that, all of northern CA would be on my ass.
Al,
As a Brit what I find difficult with your and your supporters stance, is the fact that your country was built on illegal immigrantion. The only reason they got away with it is that at the time there were no laws to declare it illegal; the law was they had guns whereas the indigenous population had bows and arrows.
I am not naive enough to suggest that illegal immigration is not a problem that needs to be addressed but have some empathy for those illegal immigrants, they are only doing what "your" ancestors did.
I have never properly read the whole of the following; they are very powerful words and up until now, to me are synonymous with the USA and what it stands for.
So at the risk of being sanctimonious, and with deepest sincerity that you never have to precede Give with Don’t :-
Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
with silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
Nick, At any given time we have 500,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona. Our hospitals have a deficit that they pass on to us. Our schools are overcrowded, crime is up, etc. Legal immigration is fine with me, those words were a call for legal immigrants. Somewhere we have lost sight of the rule of law. Illegal means someone is breaking the law.
Al,
Again I am talking about empathy for those you are able to call illegal because your ancestors who were illegal at the time wrote the laws to make themselves legal.
Also, "Give me your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", does this not epitomise illegal immigrants
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Does England allow people to just come into the country? That passage that you quote is on the Statue of Liberty. It was erected in 1886. The US had immigration laws in place at that time. We still have immigration laws, they are just not being enforced. "Give me your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" is what epitomises legal immigration through Ellis Island and every other port of entry into the USA. Should we just say to hell with the law and let everyone come whenever they want? No other country on the earth allows this.
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Al,
I will try one last time then shut up, as you seem to have missed my point again.
Empathy, which literally translates as in feeling, is the capability to share another being's emotions and feelings.
The immigrants that in this thread and other threads some want to shoot, napalm etc are fellow human beings that are trying to better their lives in the same way your ancestors wanted to. I was not debating the legality of their actions.
"Does England allow people to just come into the country" you are right we have laws too, and yet in the past we went round the world plundering other countries, colonising them, in effect illegally immigrating into them, and then we too act with indignant surprise when the same thing is tried on us.
I don't know if you have seen the end of the film "The day after tomorrow", the bit where Americans are tying to get into Mexico. I have no doubt that if the scenario ever came about you or your descendants could easily become the illegal immigrants.
There but for the grace of God go I
