Im looking for a gt 40 kit

I think the only chassis testing worth doing is straight from the manufacturer, existing owners cars may give inconsistant results. Most racers mod there cars.

Ross, after seeing your car I know the mods you have done to the rear upright mounting would make a difference over a standard RF chassis.

Here's a pic of my copy the chassis book mentioned above, it is a must for anybody serious about modding chassis.

epsn0012.jpg


I think all results from testing should be published with clarity otherwise there is no hope for prospective purchasers
 

Trevor Booth

Lifetime Supporter
Supporter
And you can add to that about another 30 or so Ref books on road vehicle dynamics, countless Engineering Papers, and other Ref books, all available to whomever wants.
You dont need an Engineering Degree to understand the principles and well worth reading.
 

Chris Duncan

Supporter
Automotive industry "experts in their field" consulted...

Forbes Aird
"Race Car Chassis, Design and Construction"

Carroll Smith
"Engineer to Win"

Herb Adams
"Chassis Engineering"

Fred Puhn
"How To Make Your Car Handle"

++++++++++++++++++++

Tube Frame Chassis Torsional Rigidity
(simply explained, hopefully)

Tube frames are made from steel tubing. A single piece of steel tubing is much stronger when loads are applied on the radial axis (lengthwise) in either compression (pushing together) or tension (pulling apart), as opposed to bending.

Demonstrate this to yourself with a wooden broom handle. Supported at both ends it can be easily broken by pushing down in the middle (simple bending). Or with one end clamped in a vise and push down on the other end (cantilever bending) again easily broken. Now try to break it by pulling or pushing on either end (tension compression), it's much more difficult to break.

Diagram of different loads.
 

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Chris Duncan

Supporter
The simplest and strongest (rigid) basic tubing assembly is the triangle. This is because any load from any direction in the plane of the triangle (edgewise) loads the tubing pieces in tension and compression.

The other simple tubing assembly seen on tube chassis is the square (or rectangle). It is weaker (flexible) because a load from almost any edgewise direction loads the tubing pieces in bending.

One way to think about this is will the assembly be rigid if the corners are allowed to pivot. This only allows axial (tension/compression) loading. A triangle with pivoting corners doesn't change shape at all when loaded edgewise. A square assembly with pivoting corners distorts into a parallelogram immediately. So when the corners are fixed (welded) the tubing in the square assembly is bent in cantilever fashion when loaded.

The triangle by itself though does not fit in well when you have a 4 cornered vehicle, the square is more usable. So you have to find a way to make a square as strong as a rectangle. So you run a piece of tubing diagonally across the square. In essence you now have 2 triangles back to back. You have the utility of the square to fit the 4 cornered application of a car and the strength of a triangle.

Rectangle with a diagonal
 

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Chris Duncan

Supporter
Now that we have established the two common 2 dimensional shapes used (triangle and square) lets expand to the 3 dimensions of a tube frame chassis. The simplest basic shape (almost) of an auto chassis is a rectangular cube. 2 rectangles at each end with the suspension, connected by 4 tubes running lengthwise at the corners.

Flexible cube
 

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Chris Duncan

Supporter
Now this shape is not rigid because it's made up of the basic non rigid shape, the square/rectangle.What if we were to add diagonals to all the rectangles in the assembly? This would make the cube rigid, specifically in all dimensions. With the dynamic loads present on an auto chassis it needs to be rigid in all dimensions/planes especially for the important torsional rigidity.

Rigid cube
 

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Chris Duncan

Supporter
Most importantly ALL sides of the cube need the strength of the triangle for torsional rigidity. This can be easily demonstrated. Locate a cardboard box, preferably one with an opening lid. Now, with the lid closed, grab 2 opposite ends of the box and apply a torsional (twisting) load. Note the amount of load it takes to twist the box. Now open the lid and apply the same torsional load. It twists much more easily.

What you have to realize in the cardboard box test is that each flat rectangular face of the box represents a rectangle with a diagonal. Take away only one diagonal and you loose a larger, more disproportionate amount of torsional rigidity than you would think given the box has 6 sides. This also demonstrates the fact that flat sheet on a rectangle tube assembly can substitute for a diagonal tube, in essence adding diagonal strength. All the more reason to affix sheet metal panels in a stronger structural fashion so they can contribute strength and not just weight.

You can also break down the diagonally braced cube into it's more basic rigid component. That 3 dimensional shape is the tetrahedron, or three sided pyramid. This is a shape you will see in chassis when a cube is not practical or applicable.

tetrahedron
 

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Chris Duncan

Supporter
The typical GT40 chassis is much more complex than the simple rectangular cube. Basically though for max torsional rigidity you want to somehow connect all the way from the front of the front suspension to the rear of the rear suspension with 3 dimensional rigidity.

This is problematic especially given the door opening (across the roof). The original cars solved this problem by carrying the rigidity across the cab of the vehicle through the rocker boxes (side sills) which serve the function of rectangular cubes. It probably happened the other way around though, in that the rocker boxes were designed first for rigidity then the door openings had to be moved up so they would be large enough for access. Either way the kits all copy the original doors so somehow they have to carry the rigidity through the cab in other places. Since the large side tanks have no other place to go this rules out a central tunnel like the Lotus.

So this then becomes the weak point of the design. Either the rocker boxes have to be duplicated through tubing or sheet or it's going to be weak in the central area.

With all this information look now again at the two previously posted chassis pictures. Think of all the "sides of the box" left, right, top, bottom, front and back. How many sides have triangles? The one with more triangles will be more torsionally rigid.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

More on the benefits of torsional rigidity.

Good handling on the turns depends on all four tires keeping in contact with the road. The shock absorbers function is to achieve this as well as possible by absorbing bumps, irregularities, road angle and changes in vehicle angle due to cornering, accel and braking loads.

Coilover shocks consist of a spring to adsorb impact and allow movement and a hydraulic damper to control the springs movement and oscillation.

The racing shock absorber is a very refined mechanism and in order to work properly it must be anchored on the fixed end by a method that holds it stationary in relation to the rest of the chassis and the other shocks. The shock is trying to hold the rubber on the road with an even amount of force in relation to the other 3 corners if what it's anchored to isn't stationary it can't function properly.

Another thing that happens with a flexible frame is oscillation. In essence it becomes an undampened spring. It receives a load and springs in one direction then springs back and forth until the oscillation dies out. If you've ever driven or seen a car going down the road with blown shock absorbers, all the fluid is gone so they have no dampening. The car hits a dip in the road and springs up and down several times before leveling out. Certainly not conducive to good handling.

A race car has 3 basic requirements, horsepower, braking and handling. Or go, stop and turn. You've got your mega$$ dynoed fire breathing powerplant, all you do is floor board that pedal. You stop fine with your mega$$ 14" rotors with 4 piston calipers all the way around. You should have the turn no problem, you've got the mega$$ tires, suspension, shocks, but what about the foundation, a rigid chassis? Have you "dynoed" it's performance? IMHO FWIW, if you don't have 6,000 lbs/deg. plus your taking that turn with a "150 HP" engine.
 

Chris Duncan

Supporter
""So you have to find a way to make a square as strong as a rectangle.""

should have read, ""So you have to find a way to make a square as strong as a TRIANGLE.""
 
Kalun,
As always, a well and simplified explanation. Even I was able to follow the examples. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thank you! I and I'm sure others here do appreciate your efforts. I have no desire to build any frames or chassis but it is really good to know what's involved to engineer and build one. It's also helpful to know what to look for in a chassis.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
.
 

Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
Lifetime Supporter
Kalun,

An excellent series of posts. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Since you are so good with the diagrams you may like to illustrate the ideal method and position to feed suspension and other loads into that theoretical frame and also maybe show some less than ideal methods with a quick critique? Just to expand on your broom handle analogy.

Regards
 
Kalun

Good info...but it didn't answer my question.
Obviously all these tube frames are a compromise
between strength and weight/cost. Otherwise most manufacturers (Detroit and aftermarket)
would have frames with enough steel to build a skyscraper.

My question is at what point is achieving MAX torsional
rigidity a case of diminishing returns? Australia (and the UK?) requires a test showing a minimum value to be met.
How much better will an average car perform on a skidpad
if the ridigity is 25 % higher ? 50 % higher?
If it increases capability from .95G to .96G, I don't see it worth switching manufacturers.

MikeD
 

Chris Duncan

Supporter
MikeD

""My question is at what point is achieving MAX torsional
rigidity a case of diminishing returns?""

my guess is it's somewhere between 6,000 lbs/deg and 12,000 lbs/deg

"How much better will an average car perform on a skidpad
if the rigidity is 25 % higher ? 50 % higher?""

That's hard to say. I'm guessing again but maybe a 20% improvement going from 2,500 to 6,000 and maybe 5% going from 6,000 to 12,000. But in overall handling, not just skidpad. If you're racing 5% is a lot.

""If it increases capability from .95G to .96G, I don't see it worth switching manufacturers.""

Agree, like going from 13" rotors to 14" rotors or from 450HP to 500HP. Other factors like ease of build and customer service probably outweigh these points. It's all small differences but when you add them all together you can make a determination of which vehicle is better.

One of my points though is that do we really know what the actual numbers are and under what configuration they were taken?

KalunD
 
Kalun,

As your last sentence suggests, until all the tests are

conducted identically with the same unit of measurement,

it'll be a case of apples and oranges. I doubt that we

will ever know the actual facts, apple v. orange, or

whether any of the data will bear scrutiny or not./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


"Confusion is the advertiser's most potent weapon." ,

excerpted from "How To Get Ahead In Advertising".

It worked in this case, cause I'm still confused! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Bill
 
Bill

Even if we get direct comparison numbers, it appears we're unable to accurately predict the affect. All we know is that a stiffer chassis is better (not always...see Top Fuel).

To fairly evaluate, chassis comparisons would require all
relevant variables be the same (tires/wheels/shocks/roll bars bars/etc)...not likely, and each manufacturer has their own suspension geometry ....so I'm not sure my car/your car comparison of deflection values proves anything. As Ron says...just bench racing....

If anyone has seen any real skidpad test data (not just computer modeling or computations) it would be neat to review.

MikeD
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I feel it is a lot of bench racing, skidpad data too. Pulling the highest amount of lateral g's around a circle doesn't tell you much about chassis dynamics and what the car will do on the track. Have a look at any recent large comparison of sports cars and track times - there is not a linear relation between skidpad numbers and track times and I imagine the reason is just what you've stated - so many variables with suspension/chassis/tires/roll centers/etc., etc.

R
 
At the risk of causing any more contorversy, unless you are going to race this car for a living, what is the big deal if one chassis is a BIT more rigid than the next one? If one of the kits mentioned on this forum was a total piece of junk than everyone would know it from owner feed back. That is not the case. I'm not discounting the fact that it is important to some people, because it obviously is. I don't have the the knowlege of the guys that have put fourth some very interesting info in this thread. Hell, I wish Ron would put in a spell check for people like me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This is what I do know. I feel like I have always had an eye for quality. It has not let me down so far. When I went to look at my car before I bought it, I looked for things like quality of the welds. I looked for the quality of the componets that came with the package.I watched this forum and took into account the comment others were making about each kit. I also wanted a car that I did not have to look to other suppliers for parts like suspension, shocks ect. Some people my like that aspect of the build, but it was not for me. I can call my manufacturer and get anything needed to complete my car. (minus engine & trans)

As Dan W said earlier, there are probaly some people biting there tongue's now and then, and I would count myself in that crowd sometimes, but I'll bet you all can say that in one aspect or another about EVERY kit.

Another thing to concider (sp) Pick a manufacturer that you are confident will be around to support you during and after your build. You don't want to have an orphan for a car!

Anyway, my comments are not sway you towards a spacific kit or to discount anything important to others here. As others have said, Do Your Own Research and pick the one for your needs and abilities. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

One more thing. Take a look at the REAL COST of FINISHING your car. Some manufacturers make you look fairly hard to get the real numbers. The first thing to invest in is a calculator /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Dan

Right on....there seem to be more "track oriented"
GT40s in the UK and down under...so I can understand
their interest in minimizing chassis flex.
Comparing these numbers are like comparing
size/weight of football players and judging their ability
mostly on that. To me the only true proof of performance
is on the track (if that's your bag).

My cars will spend 99.9% of their time on the street....
so unless there's a weld quality problem, I expect my
frames to be perfectly suited for street use.

MikeD
 
Hi Nic
I suggest you contact us at [email protected] for more information regarding a monocoque chassis based GT40.Our CAVGT is known internationaly and close on a hundred cars have already been shipped to the USA.The car is available in component form.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Jean Fourie and John Spence.
 
So how does a manufacturer use this forum for selling stuff without being a supporter?

How does that work then?
 
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