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[domtoni]

I don't understand your point. What they did do was ok and not at all relevant to the current topic? The Crusades lasted a couple of centuries and killed in the name of God. Women and children were killed. It was primarily fought against Muslims. If they didn't go to the same extremes as modern day Muslims (again, the radical extreme ones), everything else about them looks the same.

I agree whole heartedly about religion though. If someone wants it - go have it. Leave the rest of us alone.

Here is someone's view and time line if Islam's expansion.

Timeline of the Islamic Crusades

Note, the Christian crusades were launched to recapture the land from the Muslims. And let's not forget that the middle ages opened up in Europe to the Renaissance. And the Inquisition pushed not only the Jews out of Spain, but also the Muslims. And that happened in 1492.

And then we have the battle of Vienna and Lepanto
Battle of Lepanto - Ottoman Empire Defeated at the Battle of Lepanto
Battle of Vienna - Timeline Index

 

[Mark]

Did someone say that guy fishing is fat? Well that's me truly buggered then.

 

[Keith]

Did someone say that guy fishing is fat? Well that's me truly buggered then.

Er, and me...although my tailor calls me 'muscular' :laugh:

 

[Mark]

You have a Tailor? Rich Twat. I bet you avoid Taxes too!

 

[Keith]

Don't blame me, blame the Revenue Service re: tax, as they don't pay me enough State Pension to qualify for that exclusive club...

But still,

:laugh:

 

[Mark]

:beatnik:

 

[Keith]

Okay. I'll match your :beatnik: and raise you a :antlers:

 

[Mark]

:daisy:

BUSTED

 

[Chris P.]

Here is someone's view and time line if Islam's expansion.

Timeline of the Islamic Crusades

Note, the Christian crusades were launched to recapture the land from the Muslims. And let's not forget that the middle ages opened up in Europe to the Renaissance. And the Inquisition pushed not only the Jews out of Spain, but also the Muslims. And that happened in 1492.

And then we have the battle of Vienna and Lepanto
Battle of Lepanto - Ottoman Empire Defeated at the Battle of Lepanto
Battle of Vienna - Timeline Index

An example of how these discussion get off topic. Please. I never made the case that Muslims did nothing wrong. I know the Crusades were in retaliation to regain their holy land. That wasn't point. *sigh*.

Why do these discussions always seem so futile...

 

[Jack]

Because they are Chris!

 

[Jeff Young]

You are right, I am bigoted against bigots. Hate for a "group" different from us is a particularly nasty human characteristic we all have to fight against. I'd really like to think a board of folks who have an affinity for fine automobiles would be more educated, and have more sense, than to engage in blind dislike of other groups.

And yet, I'm constantly reminded that is not the case by the repeated "all Muslims are bad" threads we get here.

For someone who doesn't hate Islam, or Muslims, you and a few others sure do spend a lot of time posting up all that is wrong with the Islamic world here (and none of the good, but that is the nature of group hate).

Well, actually I don't hate anyone at all, and as far as bigots go, I believe you are the cream of the crop my friend....

Anyway, fishing trip sucessfully concluded, time to pack up and go find the Captain.

 

[Cliff Beer]

The trouble is, when you have God on your side, you know what's good for everyone else. And you don't give them the slack to learn and develop and try things. They need to run their lives, their cultures, their countries basically how you tell them, because you've spoken with God and you have the truth.

Daton, well put. +1.

And when everyone has their own particular God justifying their own particular actions....and then trying to impose that on others....well, then we have what we have today - one big FUBAR situation!!

 

[Keith]

Young Geoffrey,

Since you are not disposed to ask questions , may I ask if you ever ask questions? The only reason I ask is I have never seen you ask a question but you do make lots of statements. I am not trying to be clever but whilst it must be nice to be totally confident, is this a lawyer training thing or what? Personally, I don't think I would have known much without asking lots of questions of people..

Please, before you answer that, I would be obliged if you would also illustrate the "hate" or bias in my original post. I am not really bothered but in the interests of clear speech/writing, I wonder if you would be kind enough to highlight this, as I am always willing to learn from my mistakes.

There is sometimes much that is lost in translation, but you see, I cannot help thinking that you quite often only read those parts which fits your bias and that you have a fixed idea about anyone who posts something negative which conflicts with your mind model. Other members have made many many worse and totally racist remarks here yet you leave them alone.

Is this a personal thing young Jeff? Or are you anti-English in particular perhaps?

I'm off up the wooden hill now young Jeff. I am not really bothered if you answer or not, in fact it's probably better that you don't because whatever you might think, I am totally confident in the knowledge that you don't know me or anything about me so your assumptions (for that is what they are) are totally and utterly inaccurate.

God Save The Queen!

Sorry, quick Edit. Just to put this thread back on topic, it appears that the US Military have just assassinated an American Citizen in Yemen without trial, and he just happens to be a Muslim Cleric. So, sorry Pastor whatever in Iran, your goose is well and truly cooked by the bringers of freedom and democracy.

Timing is everything so they say. Bad luck chum, at least you tried..

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

I don't understand your point. What they did do was ok and not at all relevant to the current topic? The Crusades lasted a couple of centuries and killed in the name of God. Women and children were killed. It was primarily fought against Muslims. If they didn't go to the same extremes as modern day Muslims (again, the radical extreme ones), everything else about them looks the same.

I agree whole heartedly about religion though. If someone wants it - go have it. Leave the rest of us alone.

My only point was that I didn't think Christians had every pirated ships and held the ships and people for ransom. I totally agree with you religion has killed and butchered in the name of the popular God of the moment. Hours ago we trashed an imam who was inciting terror against non believers. Only one religion that I know of does this in the 21st century. I am NOT saying that all muslims are bad. But there are enough radicals to cause concern. We cannot worship freely in Muslim countries, we don't ask them to consider using our laws pertaining to us. But Muslim are free to worship in our country and there are sharia courts in England and muslim are trying to get sharia courts in other countries as well as ours. What ever happened to "when in Rome do as the Romans"?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

You are right, I am bigoted against bigots. Hate for a "group" different from us is a particularly nasty human characteristic we all have to fight against. I'd really like to think a board of folks who have an affinity for fine automobiles would be more educated, and have more sense, than to engage in blind dislike of other groups.

And yet, I'm constantly reminded that is not the case by the repeated "all Muslims are bad" threads we get here.

For someone who doesn't hate Islam, or Muslims, you and a few others sure do spend a lot of time posting up all that is wrong with the Islamic world here (and none of the good, but that is the nature of group hate).

And you spend an inordinate amount of time saying they are quite harmless and not to worry. A few people have made it so traveling has changed forever in the US. Lately, at least once during the year a muslim radical tries blow up a plane or plots to fly explosive laden model planes into US targets. Not to worry! Some muslim US Army major is compelled by allah to kill 13 soldiers at fort Hood, not to worry. I don't hate muslims Jeff, but I don't live in la la land and I am very aware of them, but not to worry!

 

[Chris P.]

We cannot worship freely in Muslim countries, we don't ask them to consider using our laws pertaining to us. But Muslim are free to worship in our country and there are sharia courts in England and muslim are trying to get sharia courts in other countries as well as ours. What ever happened to "when in Rome do as the Romans"?

Well, honestly, it doesn't sit well to gloat about our nation being so great because we are "free" and welcome and treat every man as our "equal", then turn around and then make a statement like that. Which do you want, my friend?

Edit - Sorry Al, it's late and I just noticed you had a link. That's quite the eye opener. Then again it's late so I need to read that in a better state, but it doesn't sound good from at least my standpoint of keeping religion out of government.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Well, honestly, it doesn't sit well to gloat about our nation being so great because we are "free" and welcome and treat every man as our "equal", then turn around and then make a statement like that. Which do you want, my friend?

Edit - Sorry Al, it's late and I just noticed you had a link. That's quite the eye opener. Then again it's late so I need to read that in a better state, but it doesn't sound good from at least my standpoint of keeping religion out of government.

I do treat everyone as equal, but at the same time our laws should be respected. Do you think sharia law should be implemented in the US? We could slip back a thousand years and have honor killings by stoning, great idea!

 

[Jeff Young]

Love the UK. Even after owning a bunch of cars produced there....

Your original post was one of many on this board along the lines of "look at all these awful things Muslims do." And while you tried to hide behind "no comment," the very words of your post showed that feel superior to the Muslim world.

This is just more of the same. Taking the bad deeds of a few and imputing them to the many. What if I said, look, "x" is better than middle age caucasian men because of something the IRA did? Or the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Aryan Nation?

Again, I'd like to think that this is a board of educated folks, ones who can rise above group stereotypes and hate. Is it wrong for these individuals in Iran to condemn this man for his Christianity? Sure. But it is also wrong for you to say that these actions are some how the fault of all Muslims and that Islam doesn't play on the "same field as the West."

By the way, we just actually executed a guy here in Georgia with no physical evidence tying him to the crime, and even after seven of nine eye witnesses recanted their story. So maybe that playing field is more level than even you think.

Ask questions? I do, a lot, of people who know more than me about particular subjects and who I can learn from. I haven't actually asked any questions in this thread because I'm not particularly interested in learning anything knew about Muslim hate.

Young Geoffrey,

Since you are not disposed to ask questions , may I ask if you ever ask questions? The only reason I ask is I have never seen you ask a question but you do make lots of statements. I am not trying to be clever but whilst it must be nice to be totally confident, is this a lawyer training thing or what? Personally, I don't think I would have known much without asking lots of questions of people..

Please, before you answer that, I would be obliged if you would also illustrate the "hate" or bias in my original post. I am not really bothered but in the interests of clear speech/writing, I wonder if you would be kind enough to highlight this, as I am always willing to learn from my mistakes.

There is sometimes much that is lost in translation, but you see, I cannot help thinking that you quite often only read those parts which fits your bias and that you have a fixed idea about anyone who posts something negative which conflicts with your mind model. Other members have made many many worse and totally racist remarks here yet you leave them alone.

Is this a personal thing young Jeff? Or are you anti-English in particular perhaps?

I'm off up the wooden hill now young Jeff. I am not really bothered if you answer or not, in fact it's probably better that you don't because whatever you might think, I am totally confident in the knowledge that you don't know me or anything about me so your assumptions (for that is what they are) are totally and utterly inaccurate.

God Save The Queen!

Sorry, quick Edit. Just to put this thread back on topic, it appears that the US Military have just assassinated an American Citizen in Yemen without trial, and he just happens to be a Muslim Cleric. So, sorry Pastor whatever in Iran, your goose is well and truly cooked by the bringers of freedom and democracy.

Timing is everything so they say. Bad luck chum, at least you tried..

 

[Jeff Young]

This was explained to you before Al, but you seem to keep forgetting it. These are essentially private courts by which Muslims who agree to have civil disputes decided by Sharia law can do so, and then can have decisions by those courts enforced in the normal judiciary.

This is no different from standard practice in the US and UK for, well, a hundred years. OUr laws have always allowed private parties, through arbitration or otherwise, to agree on their own means of settling disputes, whether that is an arbitration panel using the law of Russia in the US, or Jewish law courts, etc.

The idea that "sharia law" is taking over our courts and middle age white guys are going to be forced to submit to the law of the Koran is just stupid scare mongering. Needs to stop.

I do treat everyone as equal, but at the same time our laws should be respected. Do you think sharia law should be implemented in the US? We could slip back a thousand years and have honor killings by stoning, great idea!

 

[Keith]

Perhaps my choice of words was misguided. He isn't condemned to die for being a Christian he is condemned to die for Apostasy.

My 'level playing field' remark could have been taken either way as it was meant to illustrate the significant cultural differences between us and sometimes how difficult it is to either negotiate or come to terms with a differing philosophy in order to solve problems. Unfortunately it rang a bell in your mind because you already have me marked down as anti-Muslim/Islam you immediately got on my case.

I am not anti anyone and creed or any colour. I universally detest the entire human race . I could just sit here in my own little world and wait to die but I have concerns for my fellow man but I have more concerns with current Western 'culture' and politics than I do for moderate Islam.

If there is (and there certainly seems to be) a grave issue with fundamentalist Islam, then I expect moderate Islam to deal with it, else it will be dealt with, suddenly from the sky. That absolutely freaks me out. Americans should question who controls this technology because it may be used in the USA or Europe one day. I have not, do, not and never will support the kind of 'regime' change that has/is taking place in the Middle East although that isn't or wasn't the stated objectives.

I don't have any feelings for or against Mr Obama either - I really do not know enough about macro American politics to form any conclusion, but if he is a true 'Liberal' and he authorises these strikes.. God help us all..