Superlite GTA

[Tom]

I know most have used the LS series, but it's not exactly my thing. Kind of like the one being built with a Porsche 6, I like the idea of something different. After reading about 400+hp being pretty easy with a 4g63, it occurred to me that it might give one the option to go either GTA or SLC.

I'm going to guess that nobody has done one with a turbo 4 of any kind?

 

[Justin]

I believe an SLC was built with a Subaru flat four. Check with Fran on that.

 

[Jack]

Lots of room for the 4G engine, an adapter for the gearbox will be needed in any case.

 

[Leon R]

I am as big of 4g63 fantanic as you are going to find and even I wouldn't put 4g63 into SLC . A few years ago, someone put 4g63 into a nice, tube chassis lambo kit ($50k+ car). You wouldn't believe how much crap that car got, even from DSMers... .

If you are going to invest the money into SLC, you may just as well get the LSx engine. Unless you really trying to prove something.

GTA will be set up for 4g63, so it makes a much more natural option. Ironically, most people will not be using the 7 bolt engine that comes with their donor car... But that isn't a big deal, as 6 bolt motors are cheap and plentiful!

 

[Tom]

Okay, thanks! I was picturing I could have 3 options:

1. Get an Eclipse and learn how to trick out the motor. If the ability to build something else out of it never comes to fruition, I still have a vehicle to play with.
2. Build the GTA out of it.
3. Put the motor in the SLC.

I was thinking it would be the lighter weight option for the SLC, sort of like the difference between an LMP900 and LMP675. I'd also want something more interesting and exotic sounding than an LS if I did an SLC, kind of like the guy who is doing one w/ the GT3 power. But, sounds like this particular one is a bad option, so I guess I'd either have to decide to go all the way for an SLC or stick with Eclipse/GTA.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

Busy busy busy....

That's what I am talking about Fran!! Love updated pictures. :thumbsup:

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Tom]

Another question: Being that the donor cars are 13+ years old, they probably have in the range of 100K+ on them. I'm assuming that means a fair amount of engine work to get it running nicely and ready to drop into the new ride. Also, when I did a quick online search for donors, it seems many of them have some level of engine mods done already.

So I'm wondering whether it is a good route to go to get one of those and reuse the motor? How do I know if Joe Blow had the mods done right? How do I know if the crank has been a-walkin?

Or, am I better off just looking for a donor with a nice cabin area, ditch the motor and either get something newer out of an Evo or a crate motor? I know maybe enough to be dangerous regarding doing my own engine work, so a lot of it I would leave to the pros, even if I'm reusing the one out of the donor. Just trying to figure out the benefits of either route.

 

[Leon R]

What you are asking is best addressed on DSM forums. The reader’s digest version:
- 7-bolt motors (93-99) are not desirable: almost most end-up ether crankwalking or throwing a rod. Rebuilding them (before they crank walk or throw a rod) is more challenging and expensive, because you have to replace the hardware (torque to yield type and should not be re-used) and match the bearings. It can be done, but ONLY by a good machine shop which has experience with rebuilding 7-BOLT MOTORS!!!
- 6-bolt motors (90-92): CHEAP! $200 for a good core shot block or $500 for good used short block. Much easier to rebuild (almost any good machine shop can do it) and it almost never crankwalks.
So when you are looking at $20k+ project, you would be much better off spending extra $200 for a core or $500 for a used short block. Then, you can focus on finding a good, clean shell, without worrying about the engine.

 

[Tom]

What about going newer than '99?

I thought somewhere in this thread Fran mentioned something about ability to use the Evo, but needing to let them know that at the time of order so the mounts could be different. I'm wondering if that's an easier way to get something already in good shape and requiring minimal or less work? Could it also be better in terms of a newer tranny that's able to handle more power? (Get Evo motor/tranny from the same car or something?)

I realize DSM forums might be better, but I'm not at all familiar with them or where to look/who to ask. I'm mostly a spectator in terms of performance cars, just trying to feel out whether this could be something I could tackle.

 

[Leon R]

00+ Eclipse is a different generation (totally different car), with vertually no racing support...

EVO tranny is a bit stronger, but it is much more expensive and it remains to be seen if it is necessary.

 

[Brad R.]

I would love to see some crazy builder and take the GTA the next level... a la Mitsubishi Double Shotz (concept) :

One 4G63T for the front two wheels and another for the backend... over-the-top-brilliant :thumbsup:

 

[Tom]

Thoughts about this?

Kar King Auto, Engines and Transmissions Specialist 4G63 6bolt swap

Is this a good way to get the 95-99 complete donor car, but get away from the 7 bolt? It seems like these guys have a good reputation.

I checked out the latest info yesterday on the FFR 818 and I have to say the GTA looks MUCH nicer and more finished. The 818 looks like a retooled Miata and the fact that its topless only for now rules out a daily driver. The roll hoop sticking up is butt ugly IMO.

 

[Leon R]

The twin engine DSM has been done ~8 years ago by Vineet Singh (using automatic transmissions). It was great exercise in engineering and fabrication, but not very useful.

There are numerous methods of adapting 6 bolt engine, King offers “most OEM like” solution for people trying to keep their DSMs as original as possible… I can’t envision anyone building a GTA sharing this concern…

BTW, their comment “No more hunting down "95 only" type ecm to chip it” has to do with the use of DSM Link, which happens to be THE best way of tuning DSMs. Yes, you have to find a 95 turbo ECU, but they are cheap and plentiful! So what is the big deal? I have seen people converting: Nissans, Mazdas and EVOs to this ’95 DSM ECU, just so they can use DSM Link! It is THAT good!

 

[Jon]

This is an interesting concept and one that I have been contemplating. I do, however, have some questions.

1) If you take the 4G63 from a GST, wouldn't the transmission have unequal length drive shafts to combat torque steer? Assuming yes, wouldn't that make for slightly unusual dynamics when transitioning to and from power?

2) With the engine dropped behind the cabin, it appears logical that the exhaust manifold and turbo would be close to the new firewall. Mid-engine cars are already blessed with a fair amount of heat transfer to the cabin. With the hottest part of the engine being close to the firewall, might this be exacerbated?

3) The 4G63 might be a well loved engine. The transmission, however, is not... Any other choices?

It looks to be a good looking car. I am intrigued to see some pictures of the chassis.

 

[Leon R]

I brought up the transmission/axle issue a few posts ago but haven't heard anything back.

Transmissions are not as bad as most people make them out to be! Stay away from wheelhop and you will be fine.

 

[Tom]

I was woken up very early this morning by a dream about how the car would look all complete and painted up! I'm starting to think I'm going to have to find a way to do this.

Is it correct to assume that the rear hatch is clear and thus the engine would be visible as on a Ferrari? If so, I think it would be my preference to have a nice looking lump under there with clean, shiny, new parts.

Also, checking on youtube this morning for various nice sounding 4's, I found several Lotus' that sounded quite good. I'm not too worried about it sounding nice.

Now to look around for the ideal donor.

 

[Kasey]

As for the equal shaft questions a few post up, I've seen Eclipse Gst cars complete the "Half Shaft Mod" If you search for that you should find more information.

Basically the gsx has a half shaft for its awd transmission that can also bolt up to a Gst transmission on the 4g63 or 4g64 block.

Looking forward for more information and that Mitsu Concept is pretty nice but the weight of the engines would kill the driving experience.

 

[Leon R]

Basically the gsx has a half shaft for its awd transmission that can also bolt up to a Gst transmission on the 4g63 or 4g64 block.

This is only true for 90-92 GST (FWD transmissions). 93-99 FWD trannies have larger axles than AWD transmissions.

 

[Tom]

I'm assuming in general we want a GST or GSX? There are a ton for sale that are the models below that and/or Spyder.

Scary, I've actually started looking into getting an Eclipse. Even found one that's not too far away and mostly stock. What am I getting myself into? :shocked:

Edit - I even talked to the boss about whether I'm being realistic about this. Undecided at the moment, but have to paint the house first. . .

 

[Josh]

Donor year eclipses:

RS (NA 2wd)
GS (NA 2wd)
GS-T (turbo 2wd)
GSX (turbo awd)