EFI Using Webers

[MWGT40]

I was looking to move to either a 48 IDA Weber setup or an EFI setup next year and was looking at the pros and cons of both. Ideally of course, I want to have my cake and eat it i.e. have the originality of the Webers but with the extra performance and driveability of EFI.

Whilst taking a look at Mike Inglis' EFI setup last week, he suggested that it would be possible to have an EFI setup with the electronics hidden away, and use Weber 48 IDAs as the throttle bodies (although these would of course require some modification).

Has anybody either considered or implemented such an approach and, if so, what was your experience in terms of outcome and costs involved?

Thanks, Martin

 

The topic "Best ECU in the US" for the most part covered the pros and cons of weber style EFI. The efi setup is a speed density type fuel injection system. The most cost efficient system is a complete package from edelbrock the pro-flo efi system for small block fords. This is a complete system. at about 2200 to 2400. It is a normal carburated style manifold with a 4 barrel Holley carburator looking throttle body. You would use an air cleaner as is typical of carburated motors. You can purchase a manifold with stack Weber carbed style efi for around 2400 to give you what you want, now you have 4800 invested. Sell the edelbrock manifold and get some of that money back and your done. Or just hold on to the manifold as a backup. You can swap them back for any reason you have. One thing to think about is that if you ever want to turbocharge or supercharge the car the Edelbrock throttle body can be used but the stack style cant for that setup.. atleast not as easily. All you have to do with the edelbrock is attach a blowthrough hat as is done in carburated turbo or supercharged cars, and tie this into the turbo or supercharger system that you plan to use.
Daniel

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: DanielD ]

[ November 24, 2002: Message edited by: DanielD ]

 

[Julian West]

I've heard of a few in the 7's community that have converted a weber carb into a TB, so it can be done. As far as i can remember it involves seriously b***tardising the weber & welding in a boss for the injector.

If you can do all the welding & machining yourself & have a cheap set of 48's to play with it may be worth it, but If you have to pay someone else to do it I don't think it would be cost effective.

 

DanielD,

I suggest you take another look at the Edelbrock system and reconsider your earlier post in this thread.

If somebody (Martin) wants a Weber looking EFI system, why do you urge him to buy the Edelbrock? The Edelbrock, for all practical purposes, is merely a crude multipoint batch-fire system that shares NO aesthetic similarity to the Weber systems. There is absolutely no reason that someone cannot purchase a Weber-style individual stack induction system from the vendor of his/her choice, then run it with a Motec, Haltech, Electromotive, etc. ECU of his/her choosing. Thus, the desired look would be achieved. And, whether you will admit it or not, the individual stack induction system does indeed offer more performance potential than does the converted 4bbl carburetor style manifold a-la' Edelbrock. Sorry, but it's true. And when you factor in the difference in actual ECU capability, I can hardly believe that my eyes see REPEATEDLY this worship of what is a decidedly limited system.

Please, show us some indication that leads you to believe that you can supercharge or turbocharge the Edelbrock MEFI system. Also, I'd be interested in your explanation of how you'd tune a stack-injected engine with that Edelbrock ECU. Wanna know why it'd be tough? The Edelbrock system references engine load by MAP. Ever seen what happens to manifold pressure when you crack the throttles of a stack injected engine at low engine speeds? MAP immediately goes to nearly atmospheric. Suddenly, the ECU thinks that the throttles are wide open, and dumps HUGE amounts of fuel into the engine. What's wrong with that? Well, the ECU needs to know the difference between WOT and part throttle at low engine speeds, that's what. A 'real' ECU will allow you to tune using throttle position as a means of referencing engine load. More advanced ECUs will allow a blending function to transition from throttle position referenced engine load at low engine speeds, to MAP referenced engine load as engine speed increases.

I don't expect for everyone reading this forum or building these cars to understand these concepts. However, I really don't think you're probably doing anyone a favor suggesting they make a purchase of a system that simply is NOT intended to do the things you are suggesting it will do. I personally fail to see the logic in going through so much trouble to build such an extraordinary replica automobile, then using such a relatively un-remarkable engine management system to fuel it. Your mileage may vary.

Brian Kennedy

 

Brian,
The pro-flo system package from Edelbrock is a joint venture with Weber-Marinelli. Weber-Marinelli systems are found in Ferrari's and other european cars. I really dont believe its such a budget bare bones package as you describe. It could be but I doubt it.
I'll contact the tech support at Edelbrock today and ask about some of the things you pointed out. I've already covered the supercharger / turbocharger area.. they do have customers who have done just what I mentioned in my previous post. Maybe I'll be able to contact these customers directly to verify.. I'm not sure. I am looking for a reasonably priced system that will give me the versatility as I've identified. Let me know what it will cost to get the setup I've described in my posts. Thanks

 

I believe that you may perhaps be making an illogical assumption, that just because the company that makes this system has produced carburetion/injection componentry used on an expensive exotic automobile, then it must certainly be good stuff. I beg to differ. I can think of many companies that though they have built some pretty terrific products, have also cranked out some real duds as well.

Contact Edelbrock all you want, my friend. But let me tell you a couple things that you have not already considered.

1) Edelbrock is in business to sell products. Not just a few, but a lot of them. They are going to tell you whatever they can to assure that you'll spend money with them, and not somewhere else. If you think I'm kidding, you're really fooling yourself.

2) Edelbrock, like other large automotive performance companies, staff their 'tech line' with salespeople. These individuals have little if any real technical knowlege or understanding of the products that they are, in fact, selling to you. They'll take your questions and try to answer them from what they can find in the same documentation that you and I can get if we look for it. They'll make every assurance to you that their product will do everything you could possibly ask for, and then some. At the same time, they'll put you at ease with their claim that it's as easy as bolting on a 4bbl carburetor, which I'm sure it is.

3) The propaganda/literature for this system is quite laughable. See where it says that it's infinitely adjustable (BS flag on the field on that one) and yet simple and easy to use. The endorsement where the guy was saying how he "loves fooling with the buttons," about made me split a gut laughing. These people can't be serious. . . . .

4) If it's such a terrific product, show me people that are successfully campaigning a race vehicle equipped with this system. No, I don't mean Maw and Paw redneck bracket racing 'teams,' I mean serious racers who make their living by winning races. Show me, I'd like to see what you come up with.

But whatever. . . . spend a lot of money to build a replica of an automotive legend, then toss a half-baked EFI system on there to top it off. Frankly, you'd be much better off with a quality, properly tuned carburetor for the same money. YMMV.

Brian Kennedy

 

[Mike Dozier]

The Edelbrock system is a compromise.
It looks like a carb, but performs like EFI.
That's good if you ever suffered a float
stick, (causing an engine fire), or a power valve blow out, or choke stick closed, or
leaked fuel past a bowl gasket, etc etc.

The compromise is that it will not make
as much MAX power as a well tuned carb
(or set of carbs). That's an issue if you
want MAX power. But for those of us with a street priority, I'll trade some HP for the
benefits of EFI if the cost is within reason.

The Ford EFI stuff is good, but I prefer the look of a carb. I'd really love to have stack injection...but $ 8,000-10,000 is not in the budget...$ 2,500 is.


MikeD

 

[Guest]

Martin,
""Whilst taking a look at Mike Inglis' EFI setup last week, he suggested that it would be possible to have an EFI setup with the electronics hidden away, and use Weber 48 IDAs as the throttle bodies ""

I was considering taking a weber setup and gutting the floats and venturis and adding injector bungs and EFI, I decided against it because it wouldn't be cost effective. The most affordable weber setup available is about 2500.00, add the cost and labor of gutting the carbs and adding injector bungs, fuel rails etc. and it's more than the most affordable 8 Tbody EFI setup, which is also 2500.00 ready to go. But if you wanted something that looked as close to original as possible and still have EFI that would be the way to go. I just want the 8 stacks and am not worried about it being exact.

Ron

""Just my 0.02, I know many will recognize from my previous posts that I'm a little hesitant of FI setups with stacks but it is just because as Forum admin I get lots of email from GT40 people and overwhelmingly the FI systms with stacks have been a lot of trouble for a lot of folks, not to mention expense. I'd like to try one, but I want to see a system work well from the get go before taking the plunge.""

I don't ever expect there will be a bolt on Tbody per cylinder EFI setup that's going to work right out of the box, too many variables. And dialing it in is part of the "fun" of it anyway right?

I'd be willing to bet that researching and finding the most competent/helpful supplier of the EFI parts is the most important part of getting it to work right.

MikeDD

""The Ford EFI stuff is good, but I prefer the look of a carb. I'd really love to have stack injection...but $ 8,000-10,000 is not in the budget...$ 2,500 is.""

Wayne Presley's setup is 2500.00 plus 1500.00 for a Haltech ECU with accesories, say another 1000.00 misc. About 5000.00 total. And the haltech E6K would be closer to 4500.00.

 

Actually you can get the SDS EM4D system for $920, the manifold for $2450 and MSD ignition $500(dist, 6AL and coil) for a total of $3870. With ECU spark control the price goes up $300.

 

[Alain Vanhollebeke]

I've seen a number of SDS management systems here in Topeka, during the yearly Solo 2 (autocross) national championships.
I've seen them on turbocharged rotary powered cars, inline fours and on an aluminum buick (Rover) V8.


Although, they may not be as complex as others,,, I think they are worth consideration for a hi perf street car.

My GT40 is going to have a "mild" 302 in it.
The longblock consists of a stock, balanced lower end w/ all hi grade fasteners,and an aluminum flywheel.
I am using Trick flow aluminum heads with 1.6 roller rockers, and a FMS E303 camshaft.

My plan is to top it all of with a stack system from Wayne with an SDS unit controlling the fuel system only.

I will use an electronic distibutor and MSD box to handle the ign end of the car.

I'll be tuning the car on a dynojet and will be happy to give details of what I learn.

....of course it will be a while, since my kit has not yet arrived, and I am still in the very early stages of my project.

 

[Ron Earp]

I have to somewhat argee with the points on the Edlebrock unit. It is a fuel injection system for sure, but it's manifold design doesn't offer any advantages over a 4bbl setup. In fact, it is worse than a lot of the hot manifolds for carbs.

Sure, the system will probably offer better drivability at certain throttle settings, better fuel metering and possibly better economy, but it isn't going to offer any more real performance over a well-tuned carb. Well-tuned being the operative word.

I bet it does install well and works smoothly, but I'm afraid for my cash I'd rather just have a Demon carb on a good manifold if I don't get the weber look. Plus, the carb is a much cleaner install and look compared to the wiring harness for the Edelbrock system.

Heck, if you were going to use the Edelbrock system why not use the stock Ford EEC-IV system - Lynn Larson has successfully packed his in the GT40 and with MAF it will respond to power adders if you liked (within limits, I'm very familar with them but most are solvable). Drivability is excellent and with the long runners low-end torque should be kicking.

Just my 0.02, I know many will recognize from my previous posts that I'm a little hesitant of FI setups with stacks but it is just because as Forum admin I get lots of email from GT40 people and overwhelmingly the FI systms with stacks have been a lot of trouble for a lot of folks, not to mention expense. I'd like to try one, but I want to see a system work well from the get go before taking the plunge.

R

Ron

 

just thought I would give my .02 My trans Am has a 350 tpi in it with 430 on engine 600 with terbo. Im currently using an eccel gen 6 dfi but im changing to the electromotive kit that does away with the distributer. the gen 6 was great but know that im planning on running nos and a twin terbo I want a system that can do a little more. if you are looking for a low bujet fuel managment system I would not go with edlbrock they do not have the tuneabilty that you would want if you have a radical cam or a good set of heads their system does not alow you to have full control over the sytem such as injector pulse with and things like that. A good cheaper alternitive to the eletromotive kit $2500, Fast kit $2500 accel gen 7 $2000 would be the holy 950 it does basicly every thing as the accel gen 6 but you can get a kit for around $1500. I know you guys are ford guys but if you would like to ask some guys that know theis fuel mangment systems go too thirdgen.org then go to thier msg bord they have a section devoted to nothing but dfi systems and they talk abought every fuel mangment system thier is they also have a bord on burning cutom proms for stock chips the guys in this bord almost talk a new language they can tell you how all the fuel maping works what it does at what rpm how long the injector puls should be fuel presur they are some of the best fuel injection guys you will meet some of them work for GM , holy and a few other companies that desine a few of the systems out their. they are who I bug when I have problems tuning my car.
Earl

 

[MWGT40]

Further to my initial post on this area, Brian McCarthy kindly pointed me in the direction of these guys:
www.imagineinjection.com

They appear to offer what I am looking for and the product seems to get good reviews. Has anybody gone down this route and acquired their EFI set-up and, if so, what were your experiences and what was their customer service like?

I only found 1 reference to their product before after doing an entire search on the forum which surprised me a little, as I would have thought many others out there would be interested in this type of approach. In that post, reference was made to their products not being best-suited to high revving cars.

I would appreciate any feedback as ever.

Thanks, Martin

 

[Hershal Byrd]

Martin,
I did a search on the Club Cobra forum and there are several threads related to these
systems. Go here and you can most likely find all you need to know. http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=174234&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Hersh

 

Martin, were you thinking about the 302 or 351W? I sell manifolds and engine management systems for both, starting at $3375 for a 302 manifold with the SDS Fuel computer.

 

[MWGT40]

Wayne

I saw a picture of your setup on the Cobra forum as suggested in the post above. It looks very good. Can it run with a Motec setup? I would want it on a 302

Martin

 

[Paul Thompson 'Hooligan']

Hi Martin,

I have not viewed the system you mention but from what I know, there is little in injection terms that a Motec Management system cannot control.

Their systems may not be the cheapest, but they offer superb control/support with numerous upgrades including traction control, launch control, full throttle shifting, Nos etc etc etc

Speak to Frasier Mackeller of Motec UK

regards

Paul T

 

When it comes to making the choice of Webers or EFI then the two cannot be viewed as one. In my view it is simply authenticity versus efficiency.

Webers look great but are primative and it would seem pointless to butcher a set in order to install injectors. Even if the injector is sited between the carb and the manifold or in the manifold, its system efficiency as a throttle body will be compromised.

No matter which choice of throttle body, frankly none of them look like an IDF or IDA. Probably the neatest design is produced in the US by an English chap under the TWM brand name.

A friend has recently swapped his IDF's for a set of TWM throttle bodies. They mount both the injectors on the inside of the installation and with a suitably designed air filter box, the whole lot, loom and all can be partially hidden.

I opted for the UK produced Jenvey IDA throttle bodies ([email protected]) principally because we could talk face to face and I could get immediate service and help should I ever need it. However, Jenvey mount the injectors on the outside of the throttle bodies so the installation is clearly what it is - fuel injection. With adapter plates this could be overcome but it was considered messy.

We both opted for the Motec M48 ECU and which has a very tolerant design in that it will accept almost any type and design of sensor and injector, you simply make a choice from a menu as the system is being configured prior to mapping.

Last week my engine was with Knight Racing Services on Pete's Superflow dyno and Fraser Mackellar completed the mapping process. They are both very tallented professional individuals who work well together and get excellent results quickly. The whole process was completed in just one day.

It was a good lesson learned for me that due to the complexity of the EFI route you need professionals who work well together and as a team to achieve a good result. On reflection it is also worth noting that the EFI route is a VERY expensive undertaking and all those considering it should fully understand the full financial burden. My bank account is still creaking under the strain but if I weigh this against dirty inefficient carburetors, then there is no contest and the pain starts to go away !!

 

[MWGT40]

Chris

Have you looked at the Imagine Injection set up (Imagineinjection.com). Their throttle bodies are modelled on Weber 48 IDAs.

Also, what did you get on the dyno when you were up at Peters?

 

Have you looked into the Hilborn system offered by House of Cobras? It's a beautiful unit, and I've seen it running. It's a great little unit!
http://houseofcobras.com/fuelinject.html

Your pal,
Meat.