P4 in Red
- Thread starter MK -IV J6
- Start date
Jim, why is the front end being refinished?
Hi
Two reasons. First because the entire car will have to be painted to match. Second because Air France Pranged the nose when they returned her from the Historic Targa.
Two reasons. First because the entire car will have to be painted to match. Second because Air France Pranged the nose when they returned her from the Historic Targa.
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Bloody Frogs..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banghead.gif
This car is 0846 debated on FCHAT. I also own 0854 a 412P which is mentioned in this thread. This is the short version:
330 P3
The 1966 330 P3 introduced fuel injection to the Ferrari stable. It also used a P3 (Type 593) transmission that was prone to failure and was replaced by a ZF Friedrichshafen AG transmission when the P3 were converted to 412P's, another Ferrari first that would only last one season when the ZF's were replaced by 603R P4 transmissions in the 412P's.
[edit]
330 P4
1967 saw the ultimate mid-engined 330 P, the 330 P4. With a 3-valve cylinder head added to the P3's fuel injection system, output was up to 450 hp (335 kW). Only four were ever made. Due to its great fame and good looks, more than a hundred P4 replicas of various design have been built since.
The 330 P4 electrified the racing world when three of the four crossed the finish line together (in first, second, and third place) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona and became a symbol of victory over arch-enemy Ford GT40. Surprisingly the 330 P4 had poor aerodynamics even in comparison with its rivals, but its sexy looks continue to grab attention.
The original P4 cars are estimated to be worth about US$10 million each. A high-quality P4 replica built with genuine Ferrari engine (e.g. a 400i V12) may command as much as $200,000, but simpler ones (often with Rover engines and Renault drive-trains) may be sold for $50,000.
[edit]
Controversy around chassis no. 0846
One of the original cars, 0846, which was built as a P3 by Ferrari in 1966 and modified by Ferrari in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine while retaining it's P3 chassis and nose, was said to be totaled in a racing accident and discarded afterwards. Another is in a French automobile museum, while yet another is held by a Canadian collector, and the fourth (owned by American Walter Medlin) was set to be auctioned off in March 2005 to pay for back taxes before the owner came up with US$3 million to protect it.
Recently the P 3/4 that was thought to be destroyed resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast Jim Glickenhaus, the former movie director and stock exchange magnate. When he bought it, both he and the person he bought it from thought it was a replica chassis. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c he discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original chassis of 0846.
"After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."
XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program
In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote: "We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident." Glickenhaus has never disputed this but believes that the remains of 0846, including 80+% of it's original chassis survived and that those and other remains of 0846 are currently in the car that he owns.
The following link [1] explains the basis for Glickenhaus' beliefs. This debate [2] has raged throughout 2004 among various Ferrari enthusiasts.
A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:
Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,
We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.
Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"
This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and EXCATLY what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.
[edit]
412 P
The Ferrari 412P was a "consumer version" of the famous 330 P3 race car, built for independent teams like Scuderia Filippinetti. These cars had carburetor engines instead of the factory Lucas fuel injection. Surviving 412P cars are worth approximately US$ 6 million nowadays.
There are only 2 cars that were originally built as 412P's 0850 and 0854. 0844 and 0848 were originally P3 Factory Racecars but when Ferrari sold them to customers they removed the Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection and replaced it with Webber Carburetor's which reduced their output, something Ferrari wanted to do so that they would win points but not beat the factory cars which were then P 3/4 0846 (See Above), P4 0856, P4 0858, and P4 0860.
The P3's and 412P had the same 4 liter block which is different from the P4 4 liter block and all had P3 not P4 chassis. P 3/4 0846 is unique having, after modification by Ferrari for the 1967 race season, a P3 chassis with a P4 engine.
The 412Ps, the 330 P 3/4, and the 330 P4's, all had 4 liter engines that weren't eligible for the biggest races (such as Le Mans) after 1967, because not enough 412P's, 330 P 3/4, or P4's were built to be allowed under 5000cc sport cars class, which required 25 identical cars to have been built and sold. The smaller number of 412Ps, 330 P 3/4, and P4's meant that they were still classed as "Prototypes". Engine size in that class was limited to 3 liters after 1967, the fastest Ferrari's were no longer eligible and Enzo left sports car racing for a while in protest.
330 P3
The 1966 330 P3 introduced fuel injection to the Ferrari stable. It also used a P3 (Type 593) transmission that was prone to failure and was replaced by a ZF Friedrichshafen AG transmission when the P3 were converted to 412P's, another Ferrari first that would only last one season when the ZF's were replaced by 603R P4 transmissions in the 412P's.
[edit]
330 P4
1967 saw the ultimate mid-engined 330 P, the 330 P4. With a 3-valve cylinder head added to the P3's fuel injection system, output was up to 450 hp (335 kW). Only four were ever made. Due to its great fame and good looks, more than a hundred P4 replicas of various design have been built since.
The 330 P4 electrified the racing world when three of the four crossed the finish line together (in first, second, and third place) in the 1967 24 Hours of Daytona and became a symbol of victory over arch-enemy Ford GT40. Surprisingly the 330 P4 had poor aerodynamics even in comparison with its rivals, but its sexy looks continue to grab attention.
The original P4 cars are estimated to be worth about US$10 million each. A high-quality P4 replica built with genuine Ferrari engine (e.g. a 400i V12) may command as much as $200,000, but simpler ones (often with Rover engines and Renault drive-trains) may be sold for $50,000.
[edit]
Controversy around chassis no. 0846
One of the original cars, 0846, which was built as a P3 by Ferrari in 1966 and modified by Ferrari in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine while retaining it's P3 chassis and nose, was said to be totaled in a racing accident and discarded afterwards. Another is in a French automobile museum, while yet another is held by a Canadian collector, and the fourth (owned by American Walter Medlin) was set to be auctioned off in March 2005 to pay for back taxes before the owner came up with US$3 million to protect it.
Recently the P 3/4 that was thought to be destroyed resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast Jim Glickenhaus, the former movie director and stock exchange magnate. When he bought it, both he and the person he bought it from thought it was a replica chassis. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c he discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original chassis of 0846.
"After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. Years later, James Glickenhaus acquired remains of 0846, and with help from Ferrari S.p.A. who recast suspension uprights, commissioned Sal Barone, Alberto Pedretti, Bob Wallace and John Hadduk Jr. to restore 0846 to original specifications."
XVII Giro di Sicilia Official Program
In an email dated 6/10/2005 Joanne Marshall of Ferrari S.p.A. wrote: "We confirm that, as far as our factory records are concerned, the chassis in question (0846) was totally written off in 1967 after the Le Mans incident." Glickenhaus has never disputed this but believes that the remains of 0846, including 80+% of it's original chassis survived and that those and other remains of 0846 are currently in the car that he owns.
The following link [1] explains the basis for Glickenhaus' beliefs. This debate [2] has raged throughout 2004 among various Ferrari enthusiasts.
A letter from Ferrari S.p.A., dated September 29th, 2004, Subject: P3/4 Chassis no. 0846:
Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,
We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.
Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"
This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and EXCATLY what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible.
[edit]
412 P
The Ferrari 412P was a "consumer version" of the famous 330 P3 race car, built for independent teams like Scuderia Filippinetti. These cars had carburetor engines instead of the factory Lucas fuel injection. Surviving 412P cars are worth approximately US$ 6 million nowadays.
There are only 2 cars that were originally built as 412P's 0850 and 0854. 0844 and 0848 were originally P3 Factory Racecars but when Ferrari sold them to customers they removed the Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection and replaced it with Webber Carburetor's which reduced their output, something Ferrari wanted to do so that they would win points but not beat the factory cars which were then P 3/4 0846 (See Above), P4 0856, P4 0858, and P4 0860.
The P3's and 412P had the same 4 liter block which is different from the P4 4 liter block and all had P3 not P4 chassis. P 3/4 0846 is unique having, after modification by Ferrari for the 1967 race season, a P3 chassis with a P4 engine.
The 412Ps, the 330 P 3/4, and the 330 P4's, all had 4 liter engines that weren't eligible for the biggest races (such as Le Mans) after 1967, because not enough 412P's, 330 P 3/4, or P4's were built to be allowed under 5000cc sport cars class, which required 25 identical cars to have been built and sold. The smaller number of 412Ps, 330 P 3/4, and P4's meant that they were still classed as "Prototypes". Engine size in that class was limited to 3 liters after 1967, the fastest Ferrari's were no longer eligible and Enzo left sports car racing for a while in protest.
that's a nice looking bunch of scrap Jim.
Regards,
Mike
Regards,
Mike
Looks like its getting an acupuncture treatment /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
So Jim, when are you going to post some pics of the 612 P4/5?
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/FREE/60320024&SearchID=73241360548401
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/FREE/60320024&SearchID=73241360548401
Hi
While the article was basically correct the "Photos" were just their guess and weren't close. Pininfarina is manufacturing away and we should make our debut at Pebble.
Real photo's will be just before Pebble.
Best
While the article was basically correct the "Photos" were just their guess and weren't close. Pininfarina is manufacturing away and we should make our debut at Pebble.
Real photo's will be just before Pebble.
Best
Jim
A great looking car. Thanks for your reply to my Email and at last the mist lifts on what is a 412P, P4 and P3.
Unfortunately I cannot get on your site as my old mac has lost the facuility for PDF's.
Regards Allan
A great looking car. Thanks for your reply to my Email and at last the mist lifts on what is a 412P, P4 and P3.
Unfortunately I cannot get on your site as my old mac has lost the facuility for PDF's.
Regards Allan
Quoted from the "Autoweek" article about Jim's new 612 P4/P5 creation:
"Glickenhaus, 55, a former B-movie writer/director/producer-turned Wall Street fund manager (Glickenhaus’ movie credits include Maniac Cop, Frankenhooker, Slaughter of the Innocents and Timemaster)...."
FRANKENHOOKER? C'mon, Jim, ya gotta tell us about that one!
"Glickenhaus, 55, a former B-movie writer/director/producer-turned Wall Street fund manager (Glickenhaus’ movie credits include Maniac Cop, Frankenhooker, Slaughter of the Innocents and Timemaster)...."
FRANKENHOOKER? C'mon, Jim, ya gotta tell us about that one!
Wrote and directed:
The Exterminator
The Soldier
THe Protector
Shakedown
McBain
SLaughter of The Innocents
TimeMaster
EX Produced the others mentioned.
Frankhooker was directed by Frank Henenlotter who made Basket Case. Pretty funny that one.
As an aside P 4/5 looks nothing like the AutoWeek "Photo".
That was a pure guess on their part.
Best
The Exterminator
The Soldier
THe Protector
Shakedown
McBain
SLaughter of The Innocents
TimeMaster
EX Produced the others mentioned.
Frankhooker was directed by Frank Henenlotter who made Basket Case. Pretty funny that one.
As an aside P 4/5 looks nothing like the AutoWeek "Photo".
That was a pure guess on their part.
Best
