SPF GT40 MKII Ken Miles Livery Build

Good afternoon forum.

Long time lurker here. I am getting closer to my dream of acquiring a GT40 MKII with Ken Miles Livery and am in the process of determining the engine/transaxle combination. I understand for it to be period correct, an FE 427 is the right engine for this car. That being said, based on my extremely limited youtube video watching, that engine in these cars revs to 5800 rpm or so, unlike 7000+ rpm (maybe Hollywood exaggeration?). I am a purist and while I wont race the GT40, I will drive it quite a lot. Things that concern me with 427 are inertia of the engine (revving up/down too slowly), low red line, and sound. Something about those 302s or the modern 5.2 Alluminator really keeps me intrigued however, those are not the correct engine for a MKII - particularly a Ken Miles livery.

So… is there anyway to have a configuration/variant of a 427 that can rev to 7000 rpm? Any of the shelby american engines can do this?

Or am I trying to do something that is unachievable? I dont want to deal with valve lash adjustment and solid lifters.

The sound I am looking for is what can be seen in this video. Very tight, angry, and high strung race engine. I dont know what engine this car has but probably a 302.

 
There are plenty of engine builders who can supply a 427 that is 7K rpm capable with race engine dynamics. The problem you might have is not there, but with the transmission. Check out some of the threads on this subject in the trans section of the forum.
 
Good luck on your journey, it is really fun.

As noted by Colin, the transaxle is going to be a choice and from my view may challenge your goal of "period correct".

The Mark II cars, like the Ken Miles livery, used a T44 transmission because they kept breaking the ZFs. I recall someone built an SPF in the past decade with a T44 but it was extremely expensive. I say this noting a fully rebuilt ZF was just listed on this site for $25K and was gone in a week. I don't know what a T44 costs now but it must be a lot. Perhaps that cost does not matter to you, just bringing it up.

As Colin mentioned you can get someone to build you a 427 that will sing. Just consider that "singing" or "race engine dynamics" usually results in way more maintenance. In my past I had a much smaller 347 that used solid lifters so it could rev.. it sounded awesome until I snapped a rocker arm. The valve lash needed to be checked quite often, because of race engine dynamics, and unfortunately the previous owner didn't do that and caused a rebuild. Moving to hydraulic lifters dropped the redline but made it more reliable. You mention checking lash above so you clearly understand this. Perhaps there are new developments with hyd lifters that allow higher revs, I am not sure.

Back to the T44, if is too much money then you could realistically question if you need the 427FE block to be faithful to the build. You can get a small block that sings for lower cost and lower maintenance and very few people in this world will look under the rear clam and question if it is a FE or not.

Note, all of the above is under the guise that you are going RHD and putting on the other bits and bobs that keep the car close to the Ken Miles car.

Building these cars often create a long list of trade-offs, focusing on what you really want to do with the car helps focus the build. Each owner gets to draw the line of "how close to accurate" do you want to be.

Hope some of the above rambling helps

Kevin
 
427 FE has the sound (way better than the 302)
427 FE has shit loads of torque (way more than 302).
Original 427 FE was build for 24hrs enduance hence the lower rpm power band (& longer gears) but it is able to do more rpm, but if you do a 24hr endurance..... reliability wins the 24hrs..keep the rpm within limit & still doing insane topspeed.
Horsepower only sells cars, Torque wins races.

427 Winsor stroker (302 based) is common, but 427 FE rules, at a cost. These days technology has 427 FE full alloy engines with sh.t loads of potential. Insane torque figurs. But needs a transaxle that can cope with it.
 
Thanks for the replies folks. How reliable are the modern Shelby FE 427 engines? Do they have any known issues (leaks, etc)? Is a smaller engine punched out to 427 more reliable than a big block 427? Can a SMB punched out rev higher more reliably?

Everyone is different. I’m going to be very honest here that I dont like sudden burst of torque that lasts only 2-3 seconds and I am at redline and have to shift. Unless you are on a tall gear like the 3rd or 4th, you dont really get an experience that lasts very long. I owned a C7 ZR1 and basically with 755 hp/ 715 ft lbs of torque, car was utterly unenjoyable in first second gears. 2nd gear was done in no time. Only in 3rd or 4th you really felt the combustion engine going properly. I have a background in N/A cars with high redlines. I drive a 911 GT3 that redlines at 9000, had a GT350 8250 rpm and had an E90 M3 at 8500 rpm. I dont want to go fast, I want the experience and sensation of going fast in a race car.

That being said, I have been dreaming about #1 ken miles car for years and that car had a 427 7.0 liter in it. No mine wont be RHD, its a LHD so perhaps its not correct to state mine is period correct 100%.

Whats the highest reliable rpm I can expect out of a 427? Reliable means no solid lifters. No valve lash adjustment. Turn key and it goes. It sees a few redlines per 20 mile drive and is driven 4000-5000 miles/year.

My GT3RS and GT350 and M3 all have been extremely reliable. 9000 rpm is something everyone must experience. My car is modified and makes close to 600 hp and weighs 3100 lbs. not as light as GT40 but still in today’s standards its light. My shelby has lasted almost 90,000 miles and didnt even have any hiccups. My M3 was good for 30,000 miles before I sold it. So higher rpm motors arent all a death sentence.

The question I have here is NOT can I build a high revving engine and put into MKII. The question is can there be built a variant of a 427 to maintain originality that can also rev to 7000 rpm? I’m looking at spending $40,000 on a shelby 427 and I dont know if thats the right engine
 

Davidmgbv8

Supporter
As folks have said you have to find a transaxle to handle the power first before you pick the motor. Then what tire are you going to put on it to handle that power. I think a stroked 351 would be nice. Truly if you have modern cars that zing why are you trying to make a 427 do that? Build something fun, reliable, and a torque value a $20k transaxle can live with. Just my 2 cents
 
I was told to go with Quaife transaxle. Would that handle the torque/power?

Whats the difference between a stroked 351 vs big block 427 as far as power/reliability/sound/max rpm?

I guess as you pointed out that this isnt my only fun car. And I cant stress this enough, I am not looking for the fastest and most powerful car. I am looking for nostalgia, purity, rawness, etc. I have had my ZR1 at over 800 hp (which is worse power to weight than GT40) and it was NOT fun at all. Part of the problem was the car was too refined. Too much feedback was filtered out and you never connected with it. But the other problem was it could never put the power down. Now I know GT40 is a totally different beast. It has 700-800 lb of engine+transaxle sitting over the rear tires and it puts the power down. But I am not going to go up to 120 mph on a 40 mph county road.

The whole reason why 427 is in the conversation is because the point is to keep the car as original as possible.

If Quaife isnt the right transmission, what are the alternatives?
 
If only street or very occasional track a stroked 351 with Quaife or RBT will work. Don't understand your 7000 rpm requirement. Either stroked 351 or FE will have very broad torque band. As JP says torque wins races. If you're not going with RHD or a t44 pure originality is gone anyway.
If you truly do track days with modern slicks a ZF (Quaife or RBT) may not hold up.
 
Tried to answer your questions best I can.

Thanks for the replies folks. How reliable are the modern Shelby FE 427 engines? Do they have any known issues (leaks, etc)? Is a smaller engine punched out to 427 more reliable than a big block 427? Can a SMB punched out rev higher more reliably?
I don't really know how to answer this. These engines are mostly custom, even the Roush engines are not put through the same type of rigor that Chevy / Porsche / BMW do. In addition you may end up with leaks because of the installer which has nothing to do with the engine builder. If you want a high rev'ing 427 then you will need a fully custom motor from a builder that says they know how to do it (hopefully they actually do).

There is then a real possibility that the builder is more used to a race motor than one that is used for street duty which brings an entirely different set of characteristics. All that said, I think you will find more options for a high rev'ing engine from a Small Block Ford vs a 7L.

Everyone is different. I’m going to be very honest here that I dont like sudden burst of torque that lasts only 2-3 seconds and I am at redline and have to shift. Unless you are on a tall gear like the 3rd or 4th, you dont really get an experience that lasts very long. I owned a C7 ZR1 and basically with 755 hp/ 715 ft lbs of torque, car was utterly unenjoyable in first second gears. 2nd gear was done in no time. Only in 3rd or 4th you really felt the combustion engine going properly. I have a background in N/A cars with high redlines. I drive a 911 GT3 that redlines at 9000, had a GT350 8250 rpm and had an E90 M3 at 8500 rpm. I dont want to go fast, I want the experience and sensation of going fast in a race car.
I get the point of wanting a high rev-ing screamer, they are a riot. I have a GT3, have had an M3, used to race shifter karts, and now race a 10K+ RPM Radical, it is super fun to wind the cars out.

That said, high RPM doesn't always mean the best power delivery for every car, transmission, tire mix. In my GT3 I wring it out to 9K because that is the best power delivery. When I had the GT40 I actually found myself shifting at 5,800 a lot because the torque of the engine was so high at such a low RPM that I was getting the needed acceleration on the street. GT40s deliver power far different than a modern car, it took me a bit to get used to it and find enjoyment out of the experience.

That being said, I have been dreaming about #1 ken miles car for years and that car had a 427 7.0 liter in it. No mine wont be RHD, its a LHD so perhaps its not correct to state mine is period correct 100%.

Whats the highest reliable rpm I can expect out of a 427? Reliable means no solid lifters. No valve lash adjustment. Turn key and it goes. It sees a few redlines per 20 mile drive and is driven 4000-5000 miles/year.
I mean this in the nicest way possible. Have you been in a GT40 at full tilt yet? If not, I think it could be worth searching around the country for folks that may be willing to give you a ride. I can tell you that every GT40 I have been in, no matter what engine, is loud and raw... and hot. Candidly I would suggest you may not be able to feel the difference between any of these engines on the street, they will all feel like a hand of God is pushing you while your ear drums are screaming.

Re originality, I honestly think that going RHD is a bigger give away on "keeping the car original" than any engine. If you want LHD, all the power to you, mine was and it was great. But if the focus is being original then you will see the steering wheel no matter if the rear clam is up or down. A 427 will look just bigger in the back and create a lot more heat but I struggle to find the value prop is wanting a bigger and heavier lump in the back other than telling people it is a 427.

There are a few big block cars on this forum and they look great. If the look of that engine is what is doing it for you, all the power to you.

My GT3RS and GT350 and M3 all have been extremely reliable. 9000 rpm is something everyone must experience. My car is modified and makes close to 600 hp and weighs 3100 lbs. not as light as GT40 but still in today’s standards its light. My shelby has lasted almost 90,000 miles and didnt even have any hiccups. My M3 was good for 30,000 miles before I sold it. So higher rpm motors arent all a death sentence.

I don't think your requirements (low on maintenance, 427, and high rev-ing) can be delivered. The cars you are comparing to are modern engines, the 427 was not built to run high rev's and low maintenance. A GT40 is a long way away from a modern car in terms of nearly everything, including that it is going to need a lot of attention even if you don't go custom race engine.

I was told to go with Quaife transaxle. Would that handle the torque/power?

Re: Quaife; I think they are supposed to be good up to 550 although maybe that has changed (more?). In my experience, it is a fine transaxle and it worked for me well. There were comments a while back that spare parts were a challenge for a bit. A few years ago there was a dearth of any transaxles. Oltoff may be able to tell you about their experience with the Quaife in recent history.

That said, Quaife is not anywhere near original and the back looks different than the ZF (this is another transaxle option) which is different from the T44. Again, I don't think that really matters and it didn't matter to me when I had it, just pointing it out.

The above are just my opinions
Kevin
 
Thank you Kevin and everyone for answering my questions. A lot of information that pretty much helped me already in a very short span of time.

Based on my brief research (and talking to a few people outside of the forum), I am told that every FE 427 engine will leak eventually. Its not an if but more like when. They leak coolant and oil. One of the problems is a design element by the rear main seal. And these people (and forum posts I read) all say the same thing which is if you are going to drive your car (be it GT40 or Cobra) and not race it or just stare at it, dont choose an FE motor as they will constantly require fixing and tinkering. The carburetor on it by itself is finicky, etc etc.

Part of the appeal of this GT40 project for me is the old school nature of the car and the fact that there are no computers, no dual clutch transmissions that can only be worked by handful of people, engine repairs dont feel like open heart surgery, etc. I also feel that the legacy of old cars needs to pass down to generations. Carburetors, manual transmissions, when the knock offs are all disappearing elements of history. So point being, I am willing to learn. I have a lift and have worked on my cars for years. But I lack skills of taking care of old school cars. I have never handled a carburetor, etc.

Half the people I talk to tell me to get the motor from shelby 427 FE 550 hp, other half says the car will need to visit a mechanic all the time. Leaking coolant, oil, carb issues etc and stick with a smaller windsor engine with fuel injection. Now thats cheating isnt it? And I dont like to cheat. What I need to know is how bad is this going to be agony wise?

Also dare I ask Roush vs Shelby, who is making the better 427?
 
Kevin,

You are also correct, I never rode in a GT40 (sat in a few). I would love to go for a ride with a fellow owner. I live in tri state area in North East but I’d be willing to drive anywhere in a 250 mile radius, that includes MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, DE, MD.
 

David Garton

Supporter
Would anyone be able to identify the engine in the first youtube video?
From watching the video it appears that he only has a four speed transmission and that would be correct for a MKII with a FE engine and T44 trans. I will search more of their videos which might show the car with the clamshell raised.
 
Have you heard of & checked out 'Bear Block Motors' you will be in FE Heaven. Find yourself an old school 'Mechanic' like me, early/mid 70's who used to wrench on them back in the day, that 'ol dude' is going to need to know how to build a rev kit and source a steel crank with 3.75" stroke like a 390 or 427 would have had along with longer rods and matching pistons.. that should get you up to 7k, but leaves some doubt around valve train, I would go flat tappet ( light lifters ). Just one 4bbl for induction. Dont get over excited about the T44 being able to handle this, it probably wont. Oh, and dry sump it. Teach yourself how to build it , only need a mirror to blame it all on if it turns to custard. Dont go for a bigger stroke, or massive re-bore it will only speed up the failure process.
 
I would second the suggestion of getting a ride in a 40 with either an FE or Windsor stroker. The low down torque (over 480 lb. ft as low as 3K) may change your thoughts on high reving street engines. I raced a Formula Atlantic with 10,000 rpm redline for many years. Wild on the track over 100mph. Totally useless on the street even if it were legal.
A stroked Windsor with roller cam has a 6400rpm redline so you're only 600 rpm short of your magic 7K anyway.
 
I've owned a 427 FE (standard stroke, solid lifters) for 40 years (in a cobra). Even now it at least makes my heart race or maybe even scares me at anything over 6ooorpm, whatever the gear! You have to understand what a monster these things are. At that rpm you are either accelerating at a blistering rate or reaching very high speeds, or both! They sound amazing, spit fire and yes, occasionally leak a bit. The downside is they put a heck of a stress on the drive train. If it's not the tyres then it's the clutch or the drive shaft. The only gearboxes I have wrecked have been while racing but they too take a beating. As others have said, a transaxle is even more susceptible than an in line gearbox. Still, I wouldn't swap it for anything (except maybe a cammer!)
Sounds like your budget will buy you all the best parts but it will still be what many would describe as 'high maintenance' if you drive it hard.
My opinion is, no stroker of any sort will give you the same sensual experience as an original 427 but be aware of the ongoing care that will be needed, particularly in the drive chain.
I should add, I put a 302 in my GT40 (just finished). Time will tell whether I did the right thing or whether I will miss the FE experience!
 
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