Superlite GTA

[Narayan V]

1,Forget the low entry level price and develop the car into a full blown higher
end package and actually make it a comparable product to my other offerings.

I would be really disappointed if the Apex were canceled. In fact, I was so excited when I saw the pictures of the Apex that I set my nom-de-plume as ApexNV.

I am in my early 40s and I would be willing to spend up to $50K (all in) to build an Apex that would outperform a Roisson or the FFR GTM in looks and poise. A decked-out SLC (from what I have read) can get up to $80K - $100K.

The Apex would fit a nice niche IMHO.

Narayan

 

[Jason]

Fran, I am right smack in the middle of your demographic so here's my take.

1,Forget the low entry level price and develop the car into a full blown higher
end package and actually make it a comparable product to my other offerings.

If this is the case, then your mind should be virtually made up and just cancel this project. You would be competing almost directly with your SLC and its price point. If you've been considering a rework, then this could serve that possibility. Dumping money into an investment to try to save it is a very risky business approach.

2,Only offer the kit already attached to a donor chassis and as a roller, again at a
higher price point

This is my favorite option which I would be willing to pay more for. Drop the bespoke wheels, add this rolling chassis as standard, and put the price at 25,000-27,500 then call it a day. YOU will control the majority of the build quality and ensure that structurally solid cars hit the streets which is its own advertisement. Build time will be quick and people will see this as a car they can actually COMPLETE. Not just work on with a glimmer of hope of completing which would likely result in a mediocre product. A brochure level car is attainable to the average Joe this way.

The other reason I say this option 2 is you keep yourself in the huge market of the aftermarket "tinker" aficianados (i.e. decked out Civics, fully modded EVOs, F-body, Mustang, Suby, etc). This niche of people can easily end up spending 50k+ in the end but definitely not all at once to have a running car. 2k here, heads and cams there, wheels next...that's how people dump endless $$$ into a project. If Superlite can have these offerings, then you're the preferred supplier and can make additional $$$ (Think Scion business model of base product + personalization). Base product then...bespoke wheels, option; killer brakes, option; suspension levels (street, drag, track), option; carbon accents, option... you get the idea.

BUT, base price for initial acquisition must remain under that magical 30k. You can easily get anyone willing to pay 20k to pay 25k. 27.5k, your pushing them. 30k, you've lost a lot of them.

Sourcing the donor brings some additional complexity. Perhaps a level program would work well here as well.

Level 1, $. Get me a DSM. Cloth interior which needs some to quite a bit of work. Factory motor and transmission cleaned (maybe some optional quick paint) and ready to be installed (no internal work done, presentation only) by the customer. You may get an automatic. Salvage titles possible. Just get me into an Apex!

Level 1a, $+. Same as level 1 but no salvage titles, transmission of choice.

Level 2, $$$. Ahhh, shiny. A clean, good condition car with leather. Transmission of choice. Motor which is a good base to build from.

Level 3, $$$$+. The full Monty. Pristine, period. Engine and tranny built to order.

3,Halt development and not spend any more money or time on the project as it will
take many hundreds of units sold at the 20k package price to even break even on
the cost to bring it to market...

Booo! See my comments to #2 but just let us bond the panels and cut the subframes. 25k up front and call it a day.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

Level 1, $. Get me a DSM. Cloth interior which needs some to quite a bit of work. Factory motor and transmission cleaned (maybe some optional quick paint) and ready to be installed (no internal work done, presentation only) by the customer. You may get an automatic. Salvage titles possible. Just get me into an Apex!

Level 1a, $+. Same as level 1 but no salvage titles, transmission of choice.

Level 2, $$$. Ahhh, shiny. A clean, good condition car with leather. Transmission of choice. Motor which is a good base to build from.

Level 3, $$$$+. The full Monty. Pristine, period. Engine and tranny built to order.


Booo! See my comments to #2 but just let us bond the panels and cut the subframes. 25k up front and call it a day.

In my opinion, this is opening yourself up to criticism and equality problems. Not sure how some people would feel about dropping $30k and receiving a car with ripped up seats, etc. Not to mention the problems that can arise. One guy is planning on keeping the stock seats, but they have a rip in them and the next guy was planning on using aftermarket racing seats, and his seats are perfect.

I am not attacking you jasonator, I think you have some good ideas.

Here is my take:

Offer what was originally offered minus wheels at possibly a higher price point. That way, everything RCR offers is brand new and not confused with used parts. On top of that, RCR or GT40s.com, (or someone), creates a Mitsubishi parts exchange section where we can all sell, buy, give away parts we don't need. This could work really well. I could buy the perfect car, but it has the wrong transmission. Bob in another city is looking for a good automatic transmission. Bingo... With SO many people buying used eclipse's and talon's, we would essentially have everything that any of us would need.

This Apex project excites me so much because I feel I can really individualize this car and make it mine. I get exciting just thinking what people will do with this car. In my opinion, if you (Fran) can offer the means for us to make this car work (with new parts), your reputation will still be at the upmost level.

I think once people see how wicked these cars can and will be, there will be many track guys eating them up.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Tom]

On top of that, RCR or GT40s.com, (or someone), creates a Mitsubishi parts exchange section where we can all sell, buy, give away parts we don't need. This could work really well. I could buy the perfect car, but it has the wrong transmission. Bob in another city is looking for a good automatic transmission. Bingo... With SO many people buying used eclipse's and talon's, we would essentially have everything that any of us would need.

Mr. Wolfe

I think FFR has done the right thing with the 818 by teaming up with a partner (or several? not sure) who is helping with sourcing donors, all the way to providing a palletized "kit" for your kit that provides all of the parts needed that don't come from FFR. By having a company whose business it is do provide those parts, you can then create the tier system Jasonator mentioned for the donor stuff - from straight off a junked car you clean it yourself, to disassembled cleaned and tested, to levels of customized and performance tweaked.

 

[Jack]

"Partnering up" and palletized kits may sound like a good idea, however, it rarely makes good business sense with too many hands in the pie, especially with very low margins. Remember, this is a business and the initial idea was tailored to a specific
income and age group that fit the original business model. Straying too far from this model, it quickly becomes unprofitable. IMO, of course.

 

[Justin]

The reason why people partnered up is because all the publicity they got from the design contest (which was bull s...... Ok. Be nice!). Selling thousands of cobra kits over the years really helped them get to where they are in the "kit" car world. RCR is where they are because they sell premium products that are properly engineered, assembled, have the capability to be built within a few hundred hours... Max!

Anyways, the Apex is an all new concept for component cars. That's why it will probably cost a little more than normal. And it is being built by the only company I would trust to undergo such a project. New concepts and construction techniques take time to figure out. Investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into a car before it even comes out from such a small company is a hard business decision to swallow. And who knows if it will be successful? One of the biggest problems I see with it is people will compare it to the 818, a used boxster, a used vette, or whatever. That's some tough competition!

Fran has a LOT on his table. I wish him all the success he can get, whether it's on the racetrack or at the factory. I know this... I will get another RCR product in the future! When my Atom friends commend how well the Razor is engineered versus the Atom (specifically: suspension bushings on the Atom are SHIT!), I know there's something special about these cars. Hell, another friend that has a 458 thinks the Razor handles better than the F car. I've driven both on the same road and can honestly say yes, the Ferrari has an amazing soundtrack. BUT, it handles like a boat compared to the Razor.


Anyways.... I'm just rambling now.....

 

[Greg Wolfe]

This car just makes SO MUCH sense to so many of us. There is definitely a niche here and I just pray this car makes it to market in one way or another. I just hope it makes sense for RCR to offer it.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Tom]

"Partnering up" and palletized kits may sound like a good idea, however, it rarely makes good business sense with too many hands in the pie, especially with very low margins. Remember, this is a business and the initial idea was tailored to a specific
income and age group that fit the original business model. Straying too far from this model, it quickly becomes unprofitable. IMO, of course.

I guess I wasn't meaning partnering up as in RCR providing those things, but rather working with someone already in the salvage/resto field, giving them the list of what's needed, and pointing people in their direction as an official vendor. If the chosen vendor doesn't do the resto/mod part of it, the supplier could develop their own supply chain of affiliates to point people to ("we like to use so-and-so for refurbing turbos"). So neither entity is really doing anything beyond what they normally do.

The benefit being RCR puts a little bit of time into developing the preferred suppliers (maybe someone already in the DSM world?) and is able to give customers an easier path to full parts supplies, customization, and so on. One of the things that was confusing for me in trying to learn about building the car is that there is too much info out there on DSM's, it is hard to know who to believe, and there are lots of vendors with the exact same or very similar stuff.

EDIT: oh, and trying to sort out good DSM vendors from bad, it was extremely tough to know if a bad review or avoidance of someone was just sour grapes or an actual issue.

 

[Jack]

EDIT: oh, and trying to sort out good DSM vendors from bad, it was extremely tough to know if a bad review or avoidance of someone was just sour grapes or an actual issue.

Exactly the point I was making about deviating from the original model. Leave all of that up to the customer to figure out, and avoid all of the hassles and expense involved in finding vendors, customer issues, etc. Just not worth the time and effort IMO.
I don't see Fran and RCR building every one over the phone either. They already go way above and beyond to assist customers and even non-customers as it is.

 

[Scott Davis]

I've also been quietly watching this project with interest and hoping that when everything was said and done, the price point would not change significantly (though I believed it was almost too good to be true). I've been reading up on the DSM tuning sites and consistently checking the used car websites but was not going to commit to purchase a car until the final project was revealed (and potentially until several end users completed their projects). I'm not interested in an eclipse outside of this project. My two main concerns with the build was my skillset (as I've had no prior experience working on cars to this degree) and price. I was willing to pay as much as $25k for the kit and hoped to be able to complete at $40-$45k. The appeal of the car to me is its uniqueness and the potential performance that I would not ordinarily be able to do (I'm in California also). In my opinion the downside of the build is the interior. I could not see being 50k+ in and having an 99 eclipse interior no matter how fast the car is. But that's based on my plans for the car being somewhere between a daily driver and track car (I could care less about the interior if it was pure track car or drag car). Moot point as $50k prices me out financially anyway. For perspective there was a Porsche Cayman at an affordable price near me that I considered as an alternative project (that I would not be doing the work) adding a turbo/tune/exhaust and hoping to spend around the same amount. My hope is that you find there is more interest in the car and that you will be able to sell enough to make a profit. If cutting costs on the project to make a lower price point I would have to reconsider the changes. Suggestions like removing things such as wheels etc is pointless to me cause I'm just have to going to buy them elsewhere, that doesn't change the end price at all to me. Best of luck.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

EDIT: oh, and trying to sort out good DSM vendors from bad, it was extremely tough to know if a bad review or avoidance of someone was just sour grapes or an actual issue.

Exactly the point I was making about deviating from the original model. Leave all of that up to the customer to figure out, and avoid all of the hassles and expense involved in finding vendors, customer issues, etc. Just not worth the time and effort IMO.
I don't see Fran and RCR building every one over the phone either. They already go way above and beyond to assist customers and even non-customers as it is.

Agree 100%. RCR should not open themselves up for criticism with used parts when they don't need to. I built a FFR 65 roadster and I imagine this build would be 2-3 times easier, even if I have to source everything as the original plan explained.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Greg Wolfe]

I've also been quietly watching this project with interest and hoping that when everything was said and done, the price point would not change significantly (though I believed it was almost too good to be true). I've been reading up on the DSM tuning sites and consistently checking the used car websites but was not going to commit to purchase a car until the final project was revealed (and potentially until several end users completed their projects). I'm not interested in an eclipse outside of this project. My two main concerns with the build was my skillset (as I've had no prior experience working on cars to this degree) and price. I was willing to pay as much as $25k for the kit and hoped to be able to complete at $40-$45k. The appeal of the car to me is its uniqueness and the potential performance that I would not ordinarily be able to do (I'm in California also). In my opinion the downside of the build is the interior. I could not see being 50k+ in and having an 99 eclipse interior no matter how fast the car is. But that's based on my plans for the car being somewhere between a daily driver and track car (I could care less about the interior if it was pure track car or drag car). Moot point as $50k prices me out financially anyway. For perspective there was a Porsche Cayman at an affordable price near me that I considered as an alternative project (that I would not be doing the work) adding a turbo/tune/exhaust and hoping to spend around the same amount. My hope is that you find there is more interest in the car and that you will be able to sell enough to make a profit. If cutting costs on the project to make a lower price point I would have to reconsider the changes. Suggestions like removing things such as wheels etc is pointless to me cause I'm just have to going to buy them elsewhere, that doesn't change the end price at all to me. Best of luck.

I feel the EXACT opposite. After building kit cars, the interior is almost always the weakest point of the car. It's where many kit cars get their bad name from. Kit car interiors are never great unless you dump a boat-load of money into them. With the eclipse as the base, you have a tight, clean slate to work with. Door seals, quietness, etc. if you throw in some racing seats, stitch up some leather for the dash, console, etc., you would have an amazing interior that would blow away almost any other hand-built car. This is what I am MOST excited about with this car.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[Leon R]

Eclipses have numerous reasons to be criticized (some are more deserving than others), but interior is rarely one of those reasons.

 

[Scott Davis]

Eclipses have numerous reasons to be criticized (some are more deserving than others), but interior is rarely one of those reasons.

I certainly don't mind the interior of the eclipse and that's part of the reason I'm interested in the kit. I would consider pulling everything out anyway. As far as priorities go for this build, the interior is fairly low on my list (and interior upgrades are not even something I would want as part of the kit).

I'm was just saying if you told somebody you put $50k into the car they might expect a little more when they got into it. Obviously once you drove it they'd understand everything!!

 

[Greg Wolfe]

I certainly don't mind the interior of the eclipse and that's part of the reason I'm interested in the kit. I would consider pulling everything out anyway. As far as priorities go for this build, the interior is fairly low on my list (and interior upgrades are not even something I would want as part of the kit).

I'm was just saying if you told somebody you put $50k into the car they might expect a little more when they got into it. Obviously once you drove it they'd understand everything!!

This is how many kit car interiors look.

Compared to this:

Or what is could be:

You can pretty much remove anything that eclipe-ish and made to look unique and modern IMO.

Mr. Wolfe

 

[doug blowers]

Personally I think the eclipse inter has a lot of potential. After market sears, wheel, etc.

 

[Merim]

having owned an eclipse, it's a comfortable, ergonomic interior. there is absolutely no reason to bash it. You are not building an eclipse, the eclipse/talon is giving you the center section only. you get nice weather seals, OEM glass/doors windows that already roll up and down, keys that lock the car, carpet, dash etc. If you want to replace some gauges you could. I bet no one would know it's a eclipse interior if you swap out a few things.

edit: HVAC Controls should be enough to tip the scale here!

 

[Jason Lewey]

A 2g dash wrapped in leather with a different colored stitching would give it a much more modern look. I personally like the interior regardless.

 

[Guillaume NL]

This thread has over 100k views, the only other thread that comes close was started in 2007... I think that stat alone should speak for itself.

Fran, whatever you do, make it work and go fwd with this car ... the market is there.

 

[Greg Wolfe]

I 100% agree with the last 4 posts.

Mr. Wolfe