In my book 8k is high reving and I know the 4g63 can do it (I have had a few nice pull, flowing 70 lbs/min at 8k with my donor). The idea of the k20/24 build was more about having a good NA option rather than reving beyond 8-9k.
Superlite GTA
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
In my book 8k is high reving and I know the 4g63 can do it (I have had a few nice pull, flowing 70 lbs/min at 8k with my donor). The idea of the k20/24 build was more about having a good NA option rather than reving beyond 8-9k.
So I've most wondered about possible intercooler setups. I am new to turbo engines so I've done a lot of research on intercoolers especially in ones that will perform well on the street and track sessions minimizing heat soak. Sounds like air-water is the way to go provided you shell out the cash for an elaborate air conditioning water chilling system too. That complete setup runs well over 1k and I would not want to deal with a complicated system uness I was unhappy with an air-air.
That being said, I struggled to find a smaller, narrower air-air intercooler that could handle my proposed 500 whp. Then, I found Bell Intercoolers
Bell Intercoolers - Custom Intercooler and Core Solutions
They allow you to pick intercooler core specs and then pick your tank configuration. I think a 3 in deep, 17.9 in long, 6 in wide core rated at 1033cfm will handle the power fine and fit well. I would put it behind the Apex's driver-side, lower side intake and make a shroud/duct channeling all of the air from the intake into the intercooler. I'd probably also channel air from the smaller, upper side intake into the duct. I think that will be enough air flow and that leaves the passenger side intakes for engine bay cooling. A large, unrestrictive turbo filter could probably go behind the intercooler too.
Turbo guys, let me know if you see any problems or have thought of a better option.
That being said, I struggled to find a smaller, narrower air-air intercooler that could handle my proposed 500 whp. Then, I found Bell Intercoolers
Bell Intercoolers - Custom Intercooler and Core Solutions
They allow you to pick intercooler core specs and then pick your tank configuration. I think a 3 in deep, 17.9 in long, 6 in wide core rated at 1033cfm will handle the power fine and fit well. I would put it behind the Apex's driver-side, lower side intake and make a shroud/duct channeling all of the air from the intake into the intercooler. I'd probably also channel air from the smaller, upper side intake into the duct. I think that will be enough air flow and that leaves the passenger side intakes for engine bay cooling. A large, unrestrictive turbo filter could probably go behind the intercooler too.
Turbo guys, let me know if you see any problems or have thought of a better option.
Last edited:
Matt,
It is a bit early to discuss specific intercooler placement, because we lack most of the necessary details. But I would agree with your approach of starting out with trying to get air/air IC to work, before you move onto air/water.
It will also depend on your personal choices:
- How much power are you looking to make?
- What fuel are you using? (Alcohols require less intercooling)
- What type of racing are you looking to do? (Road racing requires the most intercooling capacity)
It is a bit early to discuss specific intercooler placement, because we lack most of the necessary details. But I would agree with your approach of starting out with trying to get air/air IC to work, before you move onto air/water.
It will also depend on your personal choices:
- How much power are you looking to make?
- What fuel are you using? (Alcohols require less intercooling)
- What type of racing are you looking to do? (Road racing requires the most intercooling capacity)
I must say that I have gotten pretty discouraged on the constant delays and lack up updates/details and gave up on this car since it was initially supposed to be released around January-ish. Somehow though, every time someone posts and I get the update, I immediately go to check out the discussion.
I check this forum at least 2x a day... I haven't given up on the project but in the short term I want to get to know my partial donor (1991 Talon) and play a bit with the 4G63 so I have a better understanding of what's going on. I plan on tracking my donor on low boost (16-18 psi) next summer and see how everything holds up.
On the intercooler/engine cooling discussion I might be able to bring better first hand experience after the season is over.
On the intercooler/engine cooling discussion I might be able to bring better first hand experience after the season is over.
A co-worker bought and daily drove his WRX for almost a year, as he was waiting for his 818. That isn't a bad approach for anyone who isn't very familiar with DSMs!
I am forcing myself to complete my 4G63 powered Triumph TR7 project, before I can start on Apex, so I am just fine with Fran taking his time
I am forcing myself to complete my 4G63 powered Triumph TR7 project, before I can start on Apex, so I am just fine with Fran taking his time
Last edited:
A co-worker bought and daily drove his WRX for almost a year, as he was waiting for his 818. That isn't a bad approach for anyone who isn't very familiar with DSMs!
I am forcing myself to complete my 4G63 powered Triumph TR7 project, before I can start on Apex, so I am just fine with Fran taking his time
How does your co-worker liking the 818? A co-worker and I started following the 818 and once they released the body (hood pins), we lost all interest in it. Just waiting for the Apex to reach production. I figure I will buy a donor next summer and in fall order the Apex (if it available).
I actually went to FFR open house / 818 launch last summer. In person (at a certain distance) the 818 looks cool...not great but a bit better than on picture. I'm convinced it's really fun to drive and it looked well engineered but it's defenitly a toy, a bit like the Superlite Razor (but maybe not as fast). The 818 I sat in was very roughly put together... Having seen an SLC in person (assuming the APEX fiberglass body is the same quality as the SLC), I can attest there is an enourmous difference in thickness, overall fit/finish/quality between the FFR and RCR product... Where the 818 would shine is if you had the discipline to actually build it for the advertise 15k$. I personnaly wouldn't be able to make as much compromise (I suck at compromise) and I would end up pourring down 30-35k$ to realise I could have built the APEX with OEM level of finish, a true daily driver with killer looks for a small premium.
My 2 cents..
My 2 cents..
Aside from seeing the 818 in person (which I have not), I agree with everything you said.
Mr. Wolfe
You're comparing a $10k kit to a $45k kit..... Sure there has always been question about the quality of FFR stuff but I really think it's a bit of a stretch to compare the 818 to the SL-C.
The Apex/GTA will be an interesting comparison but you're still talking about a $10k kit Vs. a $30k.
I'm neither an FFR or an RCR fanboy, I have interests in both, I like both and both have their place and I think it's silly to keep trying to compare the two.
The Apex/GTA will be an interesting comparison but you're still talking about a $10k kit Vs. a $30k.
I'm neither an FFR or an RCR fanboy, I have interests in both, I like both and both have their place and I think it's silly to keep trying to compare the two.
Honestly, I believe the new Apex is more comparable to the GTM than the 818. The SLC/GTM is like comparing a Viper ACR to a Mustang GT. Both are very capable, but one has a CLEAR advantage on the track compared to the other. The new Apex can probably be built for 40-50k for a very good, high power, streetable car that you can take to the track a few times a year. Im still holding judgment on the Apex until I see one in person.
Seeing the GTM on paper? Looked awesome, and I wanted one! Seeing it in person? Yikes, no thank you.
Seeing the SLC on paper? Meh.... I thought it was ok. Seeing it in person? Holy bananas!!! I gotta have one!!!
Seeing the 818 on paper? Kinda cool, in it's own kind of way... But pretty generic considering all the great submissions. Seeing the 818 in person? Yeesh!!! No thank you. And the over abundance of 1x1 soft steel in the frame didn't leave much confidence either.
Uike FFR, Fran isn't rushing the Apex. It is being engineered correctly the first time around. And the best part? It'll be under $50k for an amazing, high power, show quality car.
Be patient guys... The end product is going to be worth it!
So far, I've seen the Apex here online. And so far, I think it looks ok. But I'll have to see one in person too.
Seeing the GTM on paper? Looked awesome, and I wanted one! Seeing it in person? Yikes, no thank you.
Seeing the SLC on paper? Meh.... I thought it was ok. Seeing it in person? Holy bananas!!! I gotta have one!!!
Seeing the 818 on paper? Kinda cool, in it's own kind of way... But pretty generic considering all the great submissions. Seeing the 818 in person? Yeesh!!! No thank you. And the over abundance of 1x1 soft steel in the frame didn't leave much confidence either.
Uike FFR, Fran isn't rushing the Apex. It is being engineered correctly the first time around. And the best part? It'll be under $50k for an amazing, high power, show quality car.
Be patient guys... The end product is going to be worth it!
So far, I've seen the Apex here online. And so far, I think it looks ok. But I'll have to see one in person too.
Actually I think you are right there Justin, once the Apex is out it'll be much fairer to compare it to the GTM, the costs are much more similar.
Actually, I was just comparing the fiberglass work of the SLC (only RCR product I have seen in person) compared to any of FFR product (as I have seen all of them). I also assumed the APEX cost saving wouldn't come from cheaper bodywork...
Actually it's 13k$ (818 with a soft top) vs 15k$... as neither kit come with brakes or wheel etc... and donors are considerably cheaper for the APEX even when you include the corvette stuff... (try getting a clean, well maintained 10 sec WRX/STI for under 10k$...)
Same here, I was really close on putting a down payment on the 818. Beside not being overly excited by their design, I still think it's a nice concept and a fun car.
Comparaison are inevitable, there aren't many serious component car company out there... If you have no interest in vintage replicar and you want to drive on the street you basiacally have 4 choices (ish)
SLC +/-90k$
GTM +/-80K$ with all new components
APEX +/- 45k$ The way I would build mine
818 +/- 40k$ The way I would build mine
On that note,
Any company that is passionate about cars and make people dream come true (while staying in business) have my admiration and respect:thumbsup:
Cheers!
Last edited:
Do you have a rough budget distribution (donor [which I believe you already have], interior, wheels, paint, etc) for the +/- 45k? Just curious because I have thought mine would be roughly 40k but have not totalled proposed engine mods yet.
Matt,
I actually do have a detailed budget but the file is at work. It might take a while before I get it... I'm on vacation (ish) until 5 Jan :laugh:
I actually do have a detailed budget but the file is at work. It might take a while before I get it... I'm on vacation (ish) until 5 Jan :laugh:
There's also DDR FWIW. No idea if they are putting actual cars on the street though.
Well i was super excited about getting one of these, i'm still excited about seing everyone's builds, but I couldnt hold my self I got a 2014 Evo MR Touring. (there went all my gta/apex money).
Anyways, I hope 2 see someone install a dual clutch transmission from the evo x MR in one of these, its a great transmission and you can skip gears on your way up or down. Just for the record I really really tried to hold off as much as i could to buy this car instead.
Again cant wait to see people's apex builds in the future.
Anyways, I hope 2 see someone install a dual clutch transmission from the evo x MR in one of these, its a great transmission and you can skip gears on your way up or down. Just for the record I really really tried to hold off as much as i could to buy this car instead.
Again cant wait to see people's apex builds in the future.
But you're still comparing a product that costs 2.25-4.5x the cost, if FFR turned around and overnight double the price on ALL of their complete kits, one would hope they would *SIGNIFICANTLY* increase the quality of their fiberglass/welding/whatever.
Don't misunderstand me though, from what I understand RCR stuff is worth every penny and more than justifies the cost in the short run, especially since the quality that you get often 'saves' you time/money in the long run (GTM vs SL-C bodywork is a perfect example of this).
You don't need an STi and you don't need a 'clean' one, so long as the donor components are intact you can get a crash damaged car and yes there are plenty around for ~$5k
There is one that has just arrived in the UK and the guy has a build blog, I won't post it here but if you Google around I'm sure you can find it.
I had forgotten about DDR, but their product is somewhat of a replicar (nothing wrong with that) it's heavily inspired by the Mclaren F1
The car does look good and they have a nice choice of donors... I think I remember reading somewhere here Fran actually help this guy quit a bit in his endeavour.
Ben, I still don't agree with you WRT cost comparison but I'll let it go...
Cheers!
The car does look good and they have a nice choice of donors... I think I remember reading somewhere here Fran actually help this guy quit a bit in his endeavour.
Ben, I still don't agree with you WRT cost comparison but I'll let it go...
Cheers!
You boys are forgetting the Ultima GTR and Can Am in your list of "kit" cars. They sit near the top with the superlite product in price and quality (though Fran's egineereing is more leading edge IMO) over both FFR and DDR. I owned an MKI cobra from FFR and it was a blast to drive and stunning to look at..... But it was never going to compete with a superlite or ultima product. Fran's customer support is second to none and that alone is worth the price of admission when you build and drive your toys to the limits. My .02$
