Where is the Factory Five of GT40s?

[Mike Dozier]

I've seen this question a couple times now,
and as the owner of an FFR Cobra I've asked
myself the same question a few times.

Factory Five obviously touched a nerve in the
Cobra replica market, and has enjoyed great
success. IMHO the reasons are:

* Innovative engineering to best utilize
the donor vehicle approach
* Good quality product, with excellent
customer support
* Aggressive pricing

Can another manufacturer use the same
approach to the GT40 Market? Maybe...
but the challenge is greater.

* There is no doubt that significant
efficiencies can be achieved by
maximizing use of existing components
from the Aftermarket or readily available
vehicles. The difficulty is in melding
diverse products into a coherent package.
But it can be done. It has been done.

* There is no excuse for poor quality today,
and indeed the fit/finish/reliability of
todays GT40 replicas meet or exceed the
originals. Customer service is another
matter. As we have seen on the Forum,
there are still suppliers that do not
make customer service a high priority.
No matter how good the product, bad service
will sink you.

* Pricing is a difficult issue.
Factory Five's aggressive pricing plan
succeeded because the size of their target
market could sustain the level of kits they
needed to sell to be successful.

Since the GT40 since is inherently a more
expensive car, and consequently a smaller
target market, there are fewer units to
cover development costs, which are higher
on a car like the 40. So a manufacturer
has to be careful not to be too optimistic
about sales volume, yet the volume has to
be sufficient to obtain the necessary
economies of scale.

Identifying the market size has always been
1/2 art and 1/2 science. For example, how
many more people would buy GT40 replicas
if the cost was reduced 20%? How many
Cobra replica owners would "trade up"?
Not an easy question since the Cobra
is a very different car, being an open car
with great acceleration. The GT40 is more
refined, intended for high speed maneuvers.

Sorry for rambling on. Most of us in the
US hope that someone does step up, so the
number of GT40 replicas increases soon.
Because although it's cool to be the only
GT40 in town, I think it's cooler to have
a bunch cruising the streets!

MikeD

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

Good points but part of the allure to owning a GT40 is the exclusivity and dedication to this particular car.
I dont think many current owner/builders who have layed out $60-100,000 would enjoy seeing the market swamped with lower cost GT40'S that could possibly reduce the market value of their 2-5 years of dedication to building their dream car.
I am sure that some of the original cobra owners get tired of being asked which kit their car is.
Just my humble hard working opinion.

 

[TimB]

Mike

My opinion is that the GTM200 FFR is working on is their answer to this and possibly would have been a 40 had they not experienced the whole shelby lawsuit mess. who knows if that is right or not but I can see several similarities to the 40 in their concept pictures and have even noticed some 40 body parts in the background of a couple of photos from the factory.

 

[Gary]

As a former owner of a Factory Five Replica and a future owner of a GT40 I agree with you that it not only takes good engineering to make a good car but also excellent customer service.

My experience with Factory Five was excellent and other manufacturers should take their lead. Not so much in providing lower cost one-donor car but in the way they treat their customers. They market to a much different group than ERA does and the experience in building a Factory Five car has given me the skills and confidence to move up to more complicated tasks. My next and current vehicle is a 1969 Mini Cooper that I dissasembled and completely rebuilt. Learned many new skills with this one. One huge advantage that the mini over a GT40 is that you can drive the Mini at its limits and break very few laws and still have a good time. And, its a chick magnet. At least thats what my son tells me.

I would never have started with a GT40 due to the cost and complexity but the steps that I took in building lower cost cars I will ow not hesitate to buy and build a GT40 replica when I have the proper $$$$ from a reputable source. And I will help anyone who wants to get into this sport/hobby by helping them with my time and tools to help them build their dream. If enough people do this than this hobby will grow and the quality of the cars will continue to increase.

 

[Gary]

As a former owner of a Factory Five Replica and a future owner of a GT40 I agree with you that it not only takes good engineering to make a good car but also excellent customer service.

My experience with Factory Five was excellent and other manufacturers should take their lead. Not so much in providing lower cost one-donor car but in the way they treat their customers. They market to a much different group than ERA does and the experience in building a Factory Five car has given me the skills and confidence to move up to more complicated tasks. My next and current vehicle is a 1969 Mini Cooper that I dissasembled and completely rebuilt. Learned many new skills with this one. One huge advantage that the mini over a GT40 is that you can drive the Mini at its limits and break very few laws and still have a good time. And, its a chick magnet. At least thats what my son tells me.

I would never have started with a GT40 due to the cost and complexity but the steps that I took in building lower cost cars I will ow not hesitate to buy and build a GT40 replica when I have the proper $$$$ from a reputable source. And I will help anyone who wants to get into this sport/hobby by helping them with my time and tools to help them build their dream. If enough people do this than this hobby will grow and the quality of the cars will continue to increase.

 

[Mark Worthington]

The Cobra, like the Mustang, is a Ford-powered front-engine RWD performance car. The donor concept is logical, particularly since you can use the engine, T5, clutch, brakes and suspension bits. The only Donor pieces that would translate to a GT40 are the engine, gauges and maybe wheels. IMO, any GT40 replica that relied on a donor vehicle concept would be seriously compromised.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Fran

I completely understand your point.
But what is interesting is that I don't think
Factory Five's success has caused a drop in the value of higher spec Cobra replicas.
Superformance Cobras seem to be re-selling very well on E-Bay.

So I'm thinking that there's room in the hobby for a range of GT40s from lower spec
space frame right on up to higher spec monos.

What I would like to see (as would others)
is a supplier (preferably US based) introduce
a replica that is more affordable than those currently available to increase the overall population, but (as mentioned above) still maintaining a high level of quality and performance.

Factory Five proved it can be done,
and MN12 I think you are right on about FFR
steering away from a pure GT40 copy because
of their Shelby troubles. A real shame.
Hopefully someone else can pull it off.

MikeD

 

MikeDD. As a vender to FFR & the guy that sculptured out the body to the Cobra Daytona Coupe ( we are all supposed to call it a Type '65 Coupe ) I can tell this; FFR agreed to not make a GT40 as part of the law suit with Shelby. So they bought a C.A.V. GT40, had a company the makes scenery for Disney cast molds off it, make panels from these moulds, & use these panels to produce the prototype body for the 200GTM. As A side note here; the owners of FFR were going to let me borrow these molds, incomplete as there are, to make myself a GT40 body. One of the FFR owners changed his mind and now wants to charge me ten thousand dollars to use the moulds. Hey! no thanks!
I inclined to think they establish a price based on the market they want to target and build to it. The mid engine car is targeted to the customer that wants to spend twenty-five grand and go two hundred miles an hour. Would you buy one of these 200 mile an hour cars from a company that hasn't figured out how to make a hood hinge properly yet.
Their car looks like a "replica" of a VBM 4000 GTC to me.
If I sound like an unhappy supplier to FFR, I am! We have had agreat relationship up til recently; Mostly because I have funded the Coupe, Coupe convertible, & 250GT prototype body projects with my money. They are into me for a lot of money. I'm hoping this doesn't turn into another bad "Kit Car" story.

 

[Gordon Levy]

Gary, Good to hear for you. I hope you enjoyed AZ while you were here.

 

1. It is interesting that Factory 5 "65 Coupe" AKA Daytona was reduced in price from an into of $19,995 to a now $14,995. What are the economics of this: demand, soft economy? And tis car CAN use a Mustang donor, and

2. Watch for other good gt40 offerings in the near future from small US suppliers.

 

I have a FFR Cobra and am very pleased with it. The pricing, customer service, the owners are friendly and personable.. everything great. I couldnt brag about them and the company any higher. I've never had a fear of being taken.. great experience. I had hoped that they would come out with a GT40. I would had even bought there GTM car coming out except they slowed down on the tentetive production and who knows when it will come out. I will love my GT40 when it arrives but I definetly was hoping for a lower cost option. If I were wealthy I'd probably have a pole barn and have a bunch of these fun cars. Sorry to say I dont see any signals of wealth in the distant future. I'm going to try to keep the Cobra though because I'm not afraid to be aggressive and beat on it and enjoy it. Honestly though even the FFR Cobra isnt cheap. Yes if you go the donor route and stick to your guns and dont let yourself do all the upgrades. But most people will build to the max. Go the the WWW.FFCOBRA.COM and you will find that most people go for big brakes, stroker motors, big injectors, more expensive intakes, heads, superchargers, aluminum radiators, IRS or the new 3 link suspension, beefier transmissions, etc. If you go to the cars for sale section you will see that noone is making any real money when they sell. I may be getting off the subject but, I guess my point is the only way any exotic car can be reasonable in price is to keep it basic. Maybe then you would make/save some money.

 

Had there been a million Panteras built like 5.0 Mustangs and FAV built an extra million GT40 windshields, the FFR concept would work for a GT40 kit. All us scratch builders know the big proplem in building a GT40 replica.... the windshield and transaxle.
A streetable mid engine platform is a tough bill to fill.
Also! I wonder if FFR is going to have any problems marketing a car capable of two hundred miles per hour. Is that going effect their liability insurance and are the customers going to be able to get insurance? They will most likely get the liability insurance, but will be reflected in the price of the kit. I'm producing a body for a kit car company now that is getting quotes of twenty five thousand dollars per year for liability ins. You have to sell some kits to meet that price 7 show a profit!

 

I dont know that insurance will be an issue. The FFR Cobra have been clocked pretty fast. I think Gordon Levy probably holds the top speed of 182MPH in a Cobra. I insure my Cobra at a reasonable rate being considered more of a show car summer/recreational use.
About the Coupe price. I dont think that FFR reduced the coupe price. What they did was offer it using the live axle instead of the IRS. If you choose the option now of IRS you will pay the same price as it was previously offered.. around 19k I think.

[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: DanielD ]

 

Factory Five had a great idea at an opportune time. However, there are a number of questions like (1) who designed the FFR chassis?; (2) where did that body come from?; (3) how did they treat the people who helped them?; (4) how do they treat their suppliers? that seem to get glossed over quite a bit. Things like bump steer, fiberglass quality, wiring, and lack of customer support don't get addressed. www.CobraForum.com made FFR. If - to pull up another thread - Fiberfab had had a kit owner hosting a forum about the Avenger and promoting the product, things might have been different for the old kit.

Hell, I'm STILL waiting for a call back from David Smith about a question I asked him weeks ago!

Bringing an affordable GT40 to market today - as the entry-level jumping off point that FFR was when they started - is remarkably easy. It does involve a bit of investment, but it can be done. And done right; treat your suppliers with respect, follow through on all of your promises, and don't require others to take a 'leap of faith' and you'll be successful.

Putting the parts together? Not a problem. Single donor? Can't be done...there aren't enough Panteras out there.

Poor quality? Let's talk about the mold lines on the FFR first.

Customer service? Duh, start an online forum and have some nut with too much time on his hands read (wait...I know this guy!) every single post every single day.

Pricing? Set a price point and stick to it. I bet a GT40 kit could ship out of the kit manufacturer's shop with a price point of $14,999. That same car could be put together for ~$10K in parts and paint.

Sales volume? You've got the best price on a kit that other manufacturers seem to think is made of unobtanium. FFR sold cars that they couldn't deliver for months and months and months. And then they showed up without all the parts. The problem with sales volume is that you'll set it too low and get caught with your pants down when the orders start coming in.

Identifying the market size? Simple. 60,000 cars. That's how many GT40s you can make. That's it. When you're done, you retire. Science, schmience; Ford has already done the marketing, the car is recognizable worldwide, you priced it at what the 2005 Mustang GT is going to sell for ... you'll get every car and kit magazine worldwide to run your car on the cover. Heck, you could probably even bribe S. Temple to say that it's the "best bang for the buck" too!

On an aside, the stupidest thing that FFR has done is to not recognize what they've got. They have chosen, instead, to branch out to mid-engined cars and unpopular racers (although I really do like the body design of the FFR Daytona!). If I were to name the one thing they could do to markedly increase their market share, it would be to offer a different body on a lengthened chassis...Ford guys are great, but you can only race against so many Cobras for bragging rights before people start realizing you're comparing apples to apples. On the other hand, if you had a single donor (Camaro/Firebird) Corvette Grand Sport replica for the Chevy guys...imagine how many more kits could be sold. (And the Ford GT40 raced against which other mid-engined car..?)

Your pal,
Meat.

 

Meat, well said as always!

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I think the inexpensive GT40 kit has already been done by the NZ group formerly owned by Phil Ware. From what I've seen, their kit is the way to go if you want a quality space-frame GT40 replica, and don't mind putting in the requisite amount of sweat equity, which we're all going to do anyway. RF is a step above them, and has a build manual that is reportedly the best of any. If you wanted a monocoque, until recently the ERA (complete with two-year wait) was your only choice- now CAV and RF are in that part of the market as well. So there are a lot of choices...
Point here is that it is only the lowest end of the market that is not occupied..the question is can you build a credible and safe GT40 type car in the teens-to-twenties USD range. Well, maybe someone can. But the differences between a closed midengine car and a convertible body-on-frame vehicle are legion. And expensive.
I respect what FFR have done. Clearly, they picked their niche carefully. Plus, FFR had the advantage of free-market research in the sense that they knew that Cobra replicas are in large part responsible for the entire kit-car industry. They were not trying to sell an unknown product.
A sexy little convertible car will outsell a slinky closed car virtually all the time, especially in the West and SouthWest where you can have the top down all the time. I can only think of one classic sports car where the closed version is worth more than the open one- that's the MB 300SL. In every other case that comes readily to mind, the open version is the more desirable one.
Another thing that FFR did that was smart was that they organized a racing series- not only could you get in the car cheaply, but you had a ready-made set of new pals to race against. That is good marketing. People like to hang around others with similar interests-look at us...
I am sorry to hear that someone has had trouble with FFR. This is the first I heard of anything like that. There are two sides to all disputes, but if they're biting the hand that fed them, sooner or later they'll find it catches up with them.

 

[Hershal Byrd]

In the case of FFR, it's a matter of how they have marketed the car in my opinion.
The base cost of the kit is 12K. Now one must either parchase a used 87 to 93 Mustang or a pallet of parts to build the car. What you pay for this donor must be added to the total. Now besides getting a donor one must disassemble it and then make the parts presentable to put them onto the chassis. Also most will have to refresh the engine in some form whether that consists of a total rebuild or a change to high performance heads after a compression check.
In a guesstamation I would say at this point you are at about the cost of most roller kits provided by others such as Unique, Midstates, Shell Valley, and several others. True, you have no engine or trans but I would think that those two items are easily obtained through several avenues. Local trade papers and the classified ads are full of these type of parts.
I will say that the FFR frame is one of the best out there. I feel that the fiberglass is not quite as good as the other kits mentioned.
So when all is said and done I would think that a FFR and many of the other roller kits would be real close in cost.
Resale is another story...I have seen FFR's
that are easily worth upwards of 35K and I have seen other brands worth less. To me, this has more to do with the quality of the build. If you build a really hi tech FFR with all the top notch parts then you should get a top notch price when selling. On the other hand if you build a low cost
replica with few aminities then you can't expect a high price when selling whether it be an FFR or a Midstates.
As far as a low cost GT40, I feel that the prices will stay about where they are. To get the cost of the GT40 down any further would be difficult. The frame on a GT is far more complicated in constructing than a Cobra frame. It takes a lot more labor to produce the GT frame. Also the Body is contructed from more than 18 seperate molds.
A cobra, I believe is less than 10 or 12.
By far a GT has a more complex drive train and they are not that common for donor application.

Hersh

PS.. I think as far as prices go that because the U.S. dollar is stronger in NZ and Australia we get a little more for our dollar there . The Killer is that darn shipping...

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jim rosenthal:
"...I am sorry to hear that someone has had trouble with FFR. This is the first I heard of anything like that. There are two sides to all disputes, but if they're biting the hand that fed them, sooner or later they'll find it catches up with them..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you need to listen more closely. The chassis was designed by who for FFR? And what was the designer promised? And the backbone chassis bit came from where? Where's that California replica? And why ... oh why ... does the FFR body look remarkably like an Everett Morrison? Let's ask some of FFR's suppliers some questions about how they've been dealt with; let's start with Shell Valley and Rich Anderson. And what about that Daytona that was to go to Mike Senior? Where's that? The list is long. Long and distinguished.

The GT40 group is a bit more tight-knit. There aren't as many GT40 replica manufacturers out there, and the internet is pretty much instantaneous if you know where to look. Heck, I knew that the U.S. Toronado was gone before the home company did. GTD? Well, read here. Roaring Forties - although they did get things straightened out, it looks like - did have daily price increases with every showing of the blue car, and the prices on the old site were quite a bit different awhile back.

Is there room for a new company to bring out - for lack of a better term - an 'entry level' GT40 replica? You betcha. Can it be done? Yep, it's easy. I don't believe that the FFR sooopercar is going to fill the niche, and it's time for some new blood to take an interest. A GT40 isn't a hard car to make a kit of. All of the parts are out there available right now.

Just about anybody could do it!

Your pal,
Meat.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hershal Byrd:
"...In the case of FFR, it's a matter of how they have marketed the car in my opinion..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, but that's also a stigma as well. If you market a kit for $9,900, and then want to turn around and sell the completed car for $45K, you're going to raise quite a few eyebrows. That would be the only stigma attached to any entry-level car. FFR continues to raise the price, without a requisite leap in fit and finish; if you're going to raise the bar to the point where you're competing with established companies with a strong track record and excellent fit and finish, your car could look ... cheesy. Plus, there's a point where the market is saturated.

I think the same thing would hold true of an entry-level GT40; you'd always be known as the 'cheap' or poor-man's GT40. You could raise the bar, improve the product...but I don't think that you'd be able to compare yourself with an ERA.

The market is wide open.

Your pal,
Meat.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Bill

Thanks for the insight on FFR.
It certainly disturbs a lot of us that
your relations with FFR have soured.

I'm surprised to hear that the GT40
was included in the Shelby lawsuit.
I didn't think Shelby had any rights
whatsoever to the GT40 name/design.

It sounds like most of us are in agreement
that there is room for in this market for
different levels of GT40s to succeed,
including another level (entry)which those
of us in the US have yet to see.

Hersh, I agree with most of your post,
but I still believe that there exists enough
readily available components, Aftermarket
and otherwise, to piece together a good
quality GT40 in the US, for substantially
less than the current average price.

For example, Tornado's price for their space frame chassis, body, and suspension
is listed at $ 6700 (plus S&H).
If someone did some judicious shopping,
would it take more than $ 30k to finish a basic car? I find that very hard to believe.
The BASIC 5.0 and Getrag are very cheap!

The beauty of FFR's creation is that it does
lend itself to any number of upgrades since the basic package is affordable.
I see a lot of guys pushing up the cost of their GT40 since they "only want to do it
once". That's understandable. But it drives
the cost of the car to the point that we
have a lot of people thinking they MUST
spend $ 50k. And that's not healthy because
it's keeping a number of people out of GT40s.

I know some people want to keep the population of GT40s down. Shame on them.

MikeD