zimmerman/martin case

[Jeff Young]

Jeff as a practising lawyer do you believe in the jury system of justice?

Very much so. And just like the President, I believe I've said it here before (maybe I haven't, if not, my error): what the jury did here was right as a matter of law.

The issue isn't with the system or the jury or the judge or the prosecution or the defense (both of whom did a fine job) it's with the law.

We have laws in the US that encourage people to "stand their ground" and open fire! rather than take other steps to avoid confrontation. Those laws encourage tragedies like this. And when a black kid gets killed by an armed man who then uses those laws to escape punishment (all above board, not knocking for it), the black community is rightfully going to question the result given the history of how they've been treated by whites in this country for nearly 400 years.

That's all the President was saying, and yet people here on this board fly into the "poor oppressed whtie male' tizzy and claim he's "race baiting" or "being divisive" or whatever, when he's simply (a) reaffirming the jury's verdict; (b) saying we should respect it; (c) nothing that as a black man in America he and others have endured some shit and (d) it has gotten better but has a ways to go.

What's divisive in the reaction of white folks to that in failing ot understand it, claiming its not true, or worst of all claiming it is some sort of reverse racism.

Sad.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Jeff, Do you personally know anyone that has mistreated a black person in your lifetime? I don't, and I haven't. There are and have been people I've heard of but don't know. There are and have been blacks that mistreat whites. The way you talk, we are lumped together into a white racist group. If you have a need to feel guilty for the transgressions of others, have at it, but don't expect me to.
Where in the hell did wife beating come from? It all boils down to if Zimmerman walked on water and fed the multitudes you would still have your mindset.

 

[Jeff Young]

Jeff, Do you personally know anyone that has mistreated a black person in your lifetime? I don't, and I haven't. There are and have been people I've heard of but don't know. There are and have been blacks that mistreat whites. The way you talk, we are lumped together into a white racist group. If you have a need to feel guilty for the transgressions of others, have at it, but don't expect me to.
Where in the hell did wife beating come from? It all boils down to if Zimmerman walked on water and fed the multitudes you would still have your mindset.

You can't be serious.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

You can't be serious.

Yes I am serious. You must hang around with some pretty unsavory people. No, I don't personally know anyone. You guys want everyone to feel the self righteous pain that you feel. Go ahead, do the sackcloth and ashes routine, wail and beat your chest, but don't include me.

Tell me something Jeff, who first captured the Africans to be sold as slaves?

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I believe most slaves were sold to the traders by other Africans, they were those who had been defeated in tribal conflict. Portugal then Spain and Britian were major traders.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

That's exactly right, they were captured by other tribes and sold to the Portuguese and Spanish. In fact, the leader of the slaves on the Amistad after being on trial in New Haven CT for killing the crew on that ship, was found not guilty and returned to Africa, where he was made chief of his tribe. He then sent tribesmen out to capture people from other tribes to be sold to the Portuguese and Spanish as slaves. One would think that after going through the exact same terrible experience, it would have been some sort of learning lesson.

 

[Jeff Young]

Good God you are serious.

I grew up in the South in the 70s. I heard mayors and businessmen and lawyers and "friends" call black people niggers. I saw black kids get turned away from jobs becaus they were black. I saw teachers treat kids differently because they were black. I saw that all my black friends' parents had gone to separate high schools, first voted in many cases in the 1968 or 1972 elections and all lived in a separate part of town. I knew many white upper middle class parents who refused to send their kids to public school with the "coloreds" and instead sent them to private schools expressly set up to exclude blacks.

I saw black friends turned away at golf outings. I went to country clubs for dinner where everyone eating was whtie and everyone serving was black. I read about black folks who were killed by drunk rednecks just because. And so on and so on and so on.

I had black friends who got pulled over for driving 50 in a 45 while I was going 60 and not bothered. I had black friends fired from jobs simply because someone accused them of stealing. I had black friends who were beaten up for asking a white girl out.

I was at a NASCAR race in Alabama in 1977 and saw two black men walk the front of the stand and get pelted with fried chicken bones.

To deny black folks that history and that experience, adn to refuse to understand it as how they view the world is racism of the most ignore, stupid sort. It's not even as dangerous as the blatant racism of George Wallace and Jesse Helms. It's far more insidious because it tolerates blacks making 60% of whites, having incarceration rates at many multiples of whites, having educational success at rates way below whites, living at poverty levels way above whites and so on. And it does on the singular basis that "well, I am not racist, so it must be all THEIR fault."

Ask yourself this question. You are so focused on black violence rates. Ask why. Do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites? Or do you think there are external causes, and if the latter do you acknowledge and agree that maybe, just maybe 400 years of enslavement and disenfranchisment had somethign to do with it, and the fact that "you're not racist" might actually NOT be the cure for that societal ill?

YOU my friend are the one who needs to do some introspection, some reading of American history and some thinking before you start in when the idea that black folks have put themselves in the position they are in.

And this attempt to push the whole problem off on black slave traders? I'm not sure I've ever heard anything quite so inane.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Good God you are serious.

I grew up in the South in the 70s. I heard mayors and businessmen and lawyers and "friends" call black people niggers. I saw black kids get turned away from jobs becaus they were black. I saw teachers treat kids differently because they were black. I saw that all my black friends' parents had gone to separate high schools, first voted in many cases in the 1968 or 1972 elections and all lived in a separate part of town. I knew many white upper middle class parents who refused to send their kids to public school with the "coloreds" and instead sent them to private schools expressly set up to exclude blacks.

I saw black friends turned away at golf outings. I went to country clubs for dinner where everyone eating was whtie and everyone serving was black. I read about black folks who were killed by drunk rednecks just because. And so on and so on and so on.

I had black friends who got pulled over for driving 50 in a 45 while I was going 60 and not bothered. I had black friends fired from jobs simply because someone accused them of stealing. I had black friends who were beaten up for asking a white girl out.

I was at a NASCAR race in Alabama in 1977 and saw two black men walk the front of the stand and get pelted with fried chicken bones.

To deny black folks that history and that experience, adn to refuse to understand it as how they view the world is racism of the most ignore, stupid sort. It's not even as dangerous as the blatant racism of George Wallace and Jesse Helms. It's far more insidious because it tolerates blacks making 60% of whites, having incarceration rates at many multiples of whites, having educational success at rates way below whites, living at poverty levels way above whites and so on. And it does on the singular basis that "well, I am not racist, so it must be all THEIR fault."

Ask yourself this question. You are so focused on black violence rates. Ask why. Do you think blacks are inherently more violent than whites? Or do you think there are external causes, and if the latter do you acknowledge and agree that maybe, just maybe 400 years of enslavement and disenfranchisment had somethign to do with it, and the fact that "you're not racist" might actually NOT be the cure for that societal ill?

YOU my friend are the one who needs to do some introspection, some reading of American history and some thinking before you start in when the idea that black folks have put themselves in the position they are in.

And this attempt to push the whole problem off on black slave traders? I'm not sure I've ever heard anything quite so inane.

I was fortunate to grow up in a very small town in CT. There were 7 children in our less than middle class family. We were not brought up with racial prejudice.
I wasn't pushing the problem off on black slave traders, I simply asked you where it started, you didn't answer, Pete did. The traders are not without blame. The slaves that were sold to South America were mostly worked until they died. I think that whites and blacks are both to blame for where things are today. To lay all the blame on non blacks is ridiculous. Blacks have to accept some responsibility. Dumping money into a bottomless pit isn't going to solve anything. It hasn't worked over the last 50 years.

 

[Steve]

Jeff,

My whole family is from NC too. Experienced all the same shit in the 70's and equally horrified. Best friend throughout grade school was black.

It's 2013. Different world now and I refuse to be blamed for the awful behavior of those a generation older than me. You're right about the stats you quote on incarceration and income. But as Bill Cosby (a successful and "elder" black guy with no political agenda) who states, much of the current problem today within the black community comes from within. That's not something white people can fix nor be held responsible for. This is America, at some point you need to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

As an aside, I went to med school at Univ of Iowa. I was an instate student. It was all I could afford. I did my undergraduate there and despite graduating at the top of my class, I was never offered a scholarship to med school. First day I showed up and there were 4 black kids from CA who were there on full rides. Parents were Drs and Lawyers (far wealthier than mine). They also got to take one of the tough courses the summer before school in order to lighten their load. None of them made it to the second year of school. The point being: there are opportunities (that was 1989, there are many more now) for black kids but until they solve the internal issues of their community, it doesn't matter. Today, no self respecting black kid from the inner city wants to get a college education, better himself and his community. Is that whitey's fault?

 

[Jeff Young]

Ok, so Al thinks black folks are at least partially responsible for slavery. Check.

Steve trots out the tired old mantra of but but but but but but, I don't get what they got!

I'd say that "much of the problems with the black community" come from 400 years of slavery and disenfranchisement, rather than 40 years of people like you telling them everything is fine, didn't matter you couldn't ote or go to our schools or hold the same jobs as us, get off the floor boy, get to work and pick yourself up by your bootstraps.

Incredibly sad, and incredibly unbelievable at the same time.

So you go to medical school and instead of being thankful you are there, you are immediately jealous that 4 African Americans from California got something you did'nt and claim they were from families wealtheir than yours. Well shit son, you know how much harder their parents had to work than yours to get there? If this was 1989, and those kids were 22, that means their parents went to underfunded segregated black high schools. They probably were forced to go to "predominantly black" colleges and medical schools that had inferior facilities and equipment and such than your father.

So yeah, damn, they worked incredibly hard and were some of the very few to get to a place where they could have the same opportunity as you to go to med school. And in order to have some diversity at your school, your school offered scholarships to them. This doesn't make you happy, it makes you jealous. Sad.

"No self respecting black kid from the inner city wants to get a college education?" Really? Seriously? Did you REALLY say that? You know how many MILLIONS of those kids want nothing more than to get out of the inner city and have 1/100th of the chance that you had, and your kids will have?

Sad, just truly sad.

I fully agree at some point, race based programs need to end. But so long as we are faced with the disparity in income, education and incarceration that we see, you have two choices:

1. You can think this was caused by inherent traits in black folks; or

2. You can understand our history and what 400 years of slavery and disenfranchisement means to a group of people, and that expecting it to fix itself in 40 years is just assinine.

 

[Steve]

Ok, so Al thinks black folks are at least partially responsible for slavery. Check.

Steve trots out the tired old mantra of but but but but but but, I don't get what they got!

I'd say that "much of the problems with the black community" come from 400 years of slavery and disenfranchisement, rather than 40 years of people like you telling them everything is fine, didn't matter you couldn't ote or go to our schools or hold the same jobs as us, get off the floor boy, get to work and pick yourself up by your bootstraps.

Incredibly sad, and incredibly unbelievable at the same time.

So you go to medical school and instead of being thankful you are there, you are immediately jealous that 4 African Americans from California got something you did'nt and claim they were from families wealtheir than yours. Well shit son, you know how much harder their parents had to work than yours to get there? If this was 1989, and those kids were 22, that means their parents went to underfunded segregated black high schools. They probably were forced to go to "predominantly black" colleges and medical schools that had inferior facilities and equipment and such than your father.

So yeah, damn, they worked incredibly hard and were some of the very few to get to a place where they could have the same opportunity as you to go to med school. And in order to have some diversity at your school, your school offered scholarships to them. This doesn't make you happy, it makes you jealous. Sad.

"No self respecting black kid from the inner city wants to get a college education?" Really? Seriously? Did you REALLY say that? You know how many MILLIONS of those kids want nothing more than to get out of the inner city and have 1/100th of the chance that you had, and your kids will have?

Sad, just truly sad.

I fully agree at some point, race based programs need to end. But so long as we are faced with the disparity in income, education and incarceration that we see, you have two choices:

1. You can think this was caused by inherent traits in black folks; or

2. You can understand our history and what 400 years of slavery and disenfranchisement means to a group of people, and that expecting it to fix itself in 40 years is just assinine.

Jeff,

You make many inferences on what you think people have said on this forum that are in no way representative of what they actually said. Some of that, of course, is the nature of forums rather than face to face conversation. I in no way made any statements that you represent that I did nor do I feel the way you state. Until you really listen and understand what's being said, your responses, much as your entire diatribe above, will continue to be both ridiculous and ridiculed.

 

[Jeff Young]

Inferences? I quoted you in one place. In the others, you were slamming 4 black kids for getting a scholarship you didn't. If you weren't jealous, please tell us what the right word is.

 

[Danimal W]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY]Double Standard: Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Steve]

Inferences? I quoted you in one place. In the others, you were slamming 4 black kids for getting a scholarship you didn't. If you weren't jealous, please tell us what the right word is.

Nice baiting Jeff. Not biting...

The point of presenting my med school experience was to point out that a local kid from Iowa who works his butt off and who's parents pay taxes in the state gets passed over for scholarships in order to provide them to minority kids who are out of state (parents don't pay IA taxes) who actually have more money. The point (which apparently isn't as sharp as the point on the top of your head)? There are opportunities galore for minority kids, .... if they want to take advantage of them. There are even greater opportunities than for white kids in some respects. The rest of the "slamming" is your made up shit in your angry self-righteous mind.

The kids were nice guys, was disappointed they didn't stick around.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Steve, I have to recount my experience in med school, in neighboring Illinois.

I attended SIU SOM, graduating in 1982. We had a number of students who had gone through MedPrep, the program for disadvantaged kids to prepare them for med school; that program also had some students in it who had plenty of money but didn't have the grades to make med school. (one of them is now the medical director for an international ID foundation and has probably saved more lives than all the rest of us put together) We also had some black students who may or may not have been on scholarship- I think some were and some weren't.

We had one student (black) who had to repeat the first year and made it to graduation with our class. We had another (black) student who was repeating the first year and left part way through her (second) first year because of failing grades.

At SIU, you either made it to the second year on your grades and performance or you didn't. For myself, as an older student who originally majored in studio art and decided to be a doctor later on, I was so damn glad to be in med school that I couldn't have cared less what anyone else was awarded or wasn't awarded.

My entire tuition at SIU cost me slightly over ten thousand dollars (plus living expenses, which were very cheap in Springfield, IL, in the seventies and eighties) I feel like I got a first-class education at a bargain price. I have never looked back and thought about who else was in the class and what they might or might not have been given to be there. As far as I am concerned, if we could do the work well, we graduated.

My point is this: getting into medical school at that time may have been influenced by minority status, etc. But getting OUT of med school with a degree and a postgrad slot was not. At least at our school, everyone worked to the same goals.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I want to point out something else, whilst I am occupying my soapbox: our emergency medicine group employs college and postgrad kids as ED scribes, and occasionally I get asked to write letters of recommendation for medical school for them. I've had the satisfaction of seeing our ED scribes get into some of the top schools in the country- Vanderbilt, Emory, UVA, UMD, and this year, two going to Johns Hopkins, arguably in the top two or three in the world. I long ago quit looking at color in these kids. They are smarter than I am by far, which gives me hope for our profession.

But the situation of one of our scribes is worth mentioning: he comes from a family of modest income, solidly middle-class, no more than that. He was an undergrad student at UMD and then did a Master's at Duke, and then came to work with us while applying to med schools. He was accepted at University of Maryland med school, an excellent school which might be better known if it weren't in the shadow of the colossus across town, Johns Hopkins. He was offered a scholarship of $100K to attend UMD. I don't know if this is because he is black. But what he did was interesting- he chose to attend Johns Hopkins instead, and figure out how to pay for it himself. Although UMD is good (I've worked and taught at both places) he felt that the opportunity to go to one of the two or three best school on the planet was worth the debt and obligation he would incur. He's a brilliant kid and I expect great things from him as a physician.

I don't like debt, and in his place I might have done otherwise. But I offer the story to you as an example of the fact that there are a lot of kids out there, of all colors, who are NOT looking for a free ride- just an opportunity to do their best. And their best is going to be pretty goddam good.

 

[Steve]

Steve, I have to recount my experience in med school, in neighboring Illinois.

I attended SIU SOM, graduating in 1982. We had a number of students who had gone through MedPrep, the program for disadvantaged kids to prepare them for med school; that program also had some students in it who had plenty of money but didn't have the grades to make med school. (one of them is now the medical director for an international ID foundation and has probably saved more lives than all the rest of us put together) We also had some black students who may or may not have been on scholarship- I think some were and some weren't.

We had one student (black) who had to repeat the first year and made it to graduation with our class. We had another (black) student who was repeating the first year and left part way through her (second) first year because of failing grades.

At SIU, you either made it to the second year on your grades and performance or you didn't. For myself, as an older student who originally majored in studio art and decided to be a doctor later on, I was so damn glad to be in med school that I couldn't have cared less what anyone else was awarded or wasn't awarded.

My entire tuition at SIU cost me slightly over ten thousand dollars (plus living expenses, which were very cheap in Springfield, IL, in the seventies and eighties) I feel like I got a first-class education at a bargain price. I have never looked back and thought about who else was in the class and what they might or might not have been given to be there. As far as I am concerned, if we could do the work well, we graduated.

My point is this: getting into medical school at that time may have been influenced by minority status, etc. But getting OUT of med school with a degree and a postgrad slot was not. At least at our school, everyone worked to the same goals.

Jim, agree on all accounts. My best friend in Med school was 7 years older than me and had so-so grades as an undergraduate. Ended up being one of the best students in our class. Desire and passion for the career (probably whatever it is) is much more likely to lead to success than anything else (certainly skin color). I hope there are more MD's like the budding students you describe. My experience discussed above did indicate to me that, ultimately, it is probably expensive, wasteful and ineffective to try and correct educational disparities by the time graduate college rolls around. It would be far better to address educational inequities starting with Kindergarten. My daughter is in a Catholic school and 30% of kids are on tuition assistance (basically free). They come there because the education is good. I and other parents sponser/pay for this. It's a good investment in our country's future. No kid is turned down. We do require the parents put in a few hours a month to help with school activities etc....

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I agree as well. Like many physicians, I have felt that the golden age of practicing medicine is in the past; I used to hear this from older physicians when I was in medical school and couldn't understand what they were talking about. Now I get it, all too well. Having said that, I am reassured that very bright and industrious young people are going into this line of work. It will give me smart young colleagues to keep me on my toes, and (even more important) it may possibly assure me of a better physician for myself when I need one. And none of us know when we are going to need one, do we?

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

It's also interesting what you said about your best friend being one of the best students in the class. I think there was a clear distinction between those of us who did well in the first two years (the didactic part, mostly) of medical school, and the last two years- the clinical part. I had at least one close friend who worked like a dog in the first two years just to keep up and pass everything. She was an okay student; nothing more. But she was a brilliant medical student clinically- she had a real gift for getting people to talk to her and figuring out what they were trying to tell her. She ended up in OB/GYN and has practiced with distinction for decades- one of those docs who has delivered thousands of babies and is universally beloved. Being good at books doesn't necessarily make you a good doctor.

Interesting you went to Iowa. When I was in school, U of Iowa was considered one of the best schools in the Midwest- not just those two states, but all over.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Double Standard: Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care - YouTube

What an intelligent man.