I never cease to be amazed!

[Jim Craik]

Nah, if you stay home and pump out kids we'll send you a check!

Al it must be awful to be so angry and resentful all the time.

Do you have any examples of people who stay home, pump out kids and get a check? Who do they get the check from?

You make this sound like they then lead the easy life, is this true or are you exagerating again.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Al it must be awful to be so angry and resentful all the time.

Do you have any examples of people who stay home, pump out kids and get a check? Who do they get the check from?

You make this sound like they then lead the easy life, is this true or are you exagerating again.

I'm not angry or resentful, what prompted you to arrive at that? If I say something that rubs you the wrong way I'm an ogre? Is everything so wonderful, shiny and good to you. You do have rose colored glasses! Are you saying that there isn't anyone that stays home, pumps out kids and gets a welfare check. Come on, you're not that naive! Please!!!!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

I'm not angry or resentful, what prompted you to arrive at that? If I say something that rubs you the wrong way I'm an ogre? Is everything so wonderful, shiny and good to you. You do have rose colored glasses! Are you saying that there isn't anyone that stays home, pumps out kids and gets a welfare check. Come on, you're not that naive! Please!!!!

I don't know about The United States, but there are plenty of un-wed/single mothers some with multiple children, from multiple fathers getting welfare in Australia.

Some facts, remember by comparision Our total population is around 22 million.


The number of single parents increased from 124,000 in 1966 to 183,000 in 1974.

This prompted the Whitlam Government to change the rules governing eligibility for welfare payments because before Mr Whitlam, only widows and deserted wives were eligible to claim financial support from the Government.

There were about 40,000 such claims each year.

But in 1973 Mr Whitlam extended the right to benefits to all single mothers irrespective of their circumstances.

In 1982 the number claiming single parent payments passed 200,000.

It reached 300,000 in 1994, topped 400,000 in 2001.

The number had risen tenfold in less than 30 years.

So by making sole parenthood more financially viable, Mr Whitlam inevitably made it more socially acceptable, even attractive as a lifestyle choice.

And today, single parenthood has become normal, and a key reason for this is that the welfare state supports, enables and endorses it.

That's not to say that there aren't single mothers who were not there by choice.

But there are many who are single by choice and they're also mothers by choice.

The reality is that once welfare growth begins, it takes on a momentum of its own and then voters start to believe they have a right to be supported

 

[domtoni]

Jim,

Its common here in the UK for girls 16 and older who don't want to live with their parents to get pregnant, and ask the council to be supported. Many immigrants do the same, and they also get cars which are newer than my 12 year old Merc. I know of one tire retailer who refused to put tires on an alien's car because he had a check from the local welfare office.

 

[domtoni]

Jim, couple of points:
- when my dad made that comment, it was during the air traffic controller strike of 1981. The US had just come out of the Carter admin with its 70% tax rate. Business was in desperate. I remember hearing the head of a company say that back in the Carter days, he would discuss a product with the railroad, and they would agree on price, and the deal would fall apart because no one wanted to pay the transport on the product.
- Biden said that the administration, using the same data that everyone else did, never expected unemployment to go above 8%. Well it has been at 10% for ages now, and shows no sign of going down.
- The Bush tax cuts will expire at year's end which means you will have less disposable income.

A couple of questions for everyone reading this thread:
- Are you convinced that the stimulus will work, given European countries tried it, and have moved to reverse it? If you think it will work, what will success look like?
- Can you explain why continued low taxes on business and employees isn't a better way to stimulate the economy? Carter raised taxes, Regan lowered taxes, Clinton raised taxes, Dubya Bush cut taxes (after 9/11 when that was his only option), BHO will greatly expand taxation. If you want to discuss deficits, we have to do it in context with employment, taxation and other external factors.
- Do you think that under the stimulus you will have more houses to sell?

Last question:
- What was your economic situation at the end of the Carter, Regan, Bush, Clinton and Dubya Bush presidencies? When were you better off personally?

 

[domtoni]

Jim and Dave, you won't like this one. I don't agree with all of Beck's showmanship, but the points he makes doesn't support your position.

Obama's Idea of Leveling the Playing Field - Video - FoxNews.com

The world is usually prosperous when the US is doing well. When the US isn't doing well, either does the world.

From the New York Times (insufficient prosperity, ie free enterprise, low taxation etc) :
Breaking News Alert
The New York Times
Tue, June 29, 2010 -- 4:21 PM ET
-----

New Jitters About Global Growth Depress Stocks; S.&P. 500 Falls 3.1%

Stocks in the United States fell sharply Tuesday, following a
broad sell-off in Europe and Asia that was fueled by concerns
over the pace of growth in the global economy.

The global trend began after the Conference Board, a private
research group, said it had recalculated its leading economic
index for China to show only modest growth in April.

The Standard & Poor's 500-stock index closed down more than 3
percent. The Dow Jones industrial average was off almost 270
points, and fell below 9,900.

Here what Bolton says after about 4:30 minutes:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4265399/obamas-idea-of-leveling-the-playing-field

Here is what Hannity said with a Fox Business person:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4262840/vp-paints-grim-picture-of-economy

Don't expect the 8 million lost jobs are not coming back. I guess its still Bush's fault.

If you want to convince me, please put some solid posts up. You can use your sources for them, and will evaluate and respond. Please make forward looking statements.

 

[Nick]

Nick, what is wrong with rewarding success?

Absolutely nothing but it needs to go to everyone who contributed to that success and not just the few at the top, and a bonus of over £600 000 for someone on a salary of almost that amount seems obscene to me. This is the bonus some of the workers who contributed to the companies success will be getting.

Meanwhile, although the RMT is insisting that safety is being put at risk by Network Rail's proposals to reduce maintenance staff by 1,500.

 

[Nick]

Nick,
While I am a free market believer for the most part, but the wholesale raping of companies and their employees by some "elite" crew of managers that all seem to be a part of a club is really pissing me off. These guys are screwing their stockholders, their employees and the general economy. i don't know how the Boards of Directors let this happen, but I suspect it is a "good old boys club". If you think that these guys vote 'Conservative' then you are most likely corrrect. But please don't confuse this group of people with the vast majority of conservative voters. Most of the conservatives that I know are a lot more honest than this group of clowns.. But i don't want a group of leftists taking over either, as that will create a new class of cronieism such as you have suffered through with the Labor Party and their MP'S.
Garry

Garry,

Exactley how I would like to have said it myself if I was as eloquant as you. Extremes at either end of the political spectrum are not good, hence the reason I am an in the middle Liberal leaning slightly to the left.

 

[Nick]

Jim,

Its common here in the UK for girls 16 and older who don't want to live with their parents to get pregnant, and ask the council to be supported. Many immigrants do the same, and they also get cars which are newer than my 12 year old Merc. I know of one tire retailer who refused to put tires on an alien's car because he had a check from the local welfare office.

Ok this is a difficult one as it does happen. I genuinely believe it is not as common as portrayed. My son has a very wide circle of friends and only one of them has gone down this path. Also, you do have to be homless before the council would even consider you a priority.

Pumping out kids and trying to get out of supporting them is not restricted to young single mothers, Cecil Parkinson was a cabinet minister in Mrs Thatchers Conservative government.

Parkinson was forced to resign in October 1983 after it was revealed that his former secretary, Sara Keays, was carrying his child, Flora Keays (born Merton, Greater London. Subsequently, as a result of a dispute over child maintenance payments, Parkinson (with Keays' initial consent) was able to gain an injunction in 1993, forbidding the British media from making any reference to their daughter. Flora Keays has learning difficulties and Asperger syndrome. This court order was the subject of some controversy, until Flora Keays reached her majority at the end of 2001, when the court order expired. Upon Flora turning 18, it was noted in the press that Parkinson had never met his child and presumably had no intention of doing so.

 

[domtoni]

Nick, I have heard it said (wish I had all of these stats in my brain) that the reason underage pregnancy in the UK is high is because of the local government support. When compared to the Netherlands, the Dutch offer no support. Not sure what happens once they turn 18, but I suspect no help.

Nick, you do here the stories on BBC Radio about councils that give huge grants to people with countless children, and these people have no jobs, and probably don't have any intention of getting a job.

I think the point Al made earlier on is this is also present in the USA and no one is doing anything to try and stop it, just like no one seems interested in slowing this unhealthy rate here in the UK.

 

[domtoni]

We were talking about unemployment, how is it then if the stimulus is so good Jeff and Jim, that the June hiring results are so optimistic?? Note this comes from the Financial Times, one of those publications that provides a good sense of truthful reporting.

Slow US hiring signals ‘lethargic’ jobs market
ByAlan Rappeport in New York
Published: June 30 2010 13:51 | Last updated: June 30 2010 13:51
US companies added a modest 13,000 jobs in June, as private-sector job growth stalled amid a wobbly economic recovery.

June hiring slowed dramatically from the previous month, when private companies added 57,000 workers, according to ADP Employer Services, signalling that private companies held back ahead of summer. The gain was much smaller than the 60,000 additional jobs that economists had expected.

 

[Jim Craik]

Carter raised taxes, Regan lowered taxes, Clinton raised taxes, Dubya Bush cut taxes Posted by

 

[Jim Craik]

Carter raised taxes, Regan lowered taxes, Clinton raised taxes, Dubya Bush cut taxes

posted by Domtoni

First you conveniently left out Bush1 raising taxes! Typical selfish conservative, leave out data that makes you look bad!

Second look at the above chart, how did Reagan's lowering of taxes do for the economy. I bought my first house in 1982 my loan rate was 17+%.

Yes Bush2 lowered taxes and started two wars with no way to pay for them, again look at the above graph, how did that work for the economy.

 

[domtoni]

OK Jim, you are right I forgot Bush 1. But he was only there for 1 term, and he raised taxes. I checked Wikipedia looking for tax rates but couldn't find it. That's what got Clinton elected, but death taxes at 55%? Come on, you work all your life, pay over 50% to the government and then have to give over half at the time of your departure?

Were you making more money by the end of Regan's second term than you were at the beginning of his first term? What was the interest rate after Regan had a chance to install his policies, your house was bought under a hang over from Carter's economic policies at 17% dropped to what %.

I was doing better under Bush 2 than I am now under BHO and Gordon Brown. I would rather see unemployment at 4%, the Dow at 14,500, and people buying homes. That actually was part of our economy. We could handle bigger spending when the government is taking more in tax revenue.

While we are talking about history, look at Ike, and Nixon/Ford and their reduction in deficit spending. But during the postwar era until 1985ish, the economy was in a growth mode and infrastructure projects, like the Interstate system, was built and paid. That's probably why the deficit came down.

 

[Garry]

Jim,
You are ignoring the facts. Reagan inherited a dismal economy and with his tax cuts, stimulated the rebound that eventually corrected the real estate market and led to prosperity in the late 80's and 90's. He did raise the debt, as did FDR when the economy had collapsed, or did you sleep through that debacle. The Carter years were absolutely dismal. And as for your 17% interest rate, in about 5 years you were able to refinance that debt to a more reasonable 7%, but you fail to mention that. The biggest expenditures during Reagan was for upgrading the miltary and putting the USSR out of commission. Well spent money in my book. The Miltary that Reagan inherited was so badly equiped that we could not have fought a one-front war, much less be everywhere we needed to be. Ask me how i know since I was there first hand in Vietnam and we saw the crap that was recycled from the Korean War that we were supposed to use. By the time I got to Vietnam in 72, we were using used weapons and reloads. If you were there then you know. I suspect that you were not there. The Spy satellites, and the other modern weapons we employ came from Reagan's "Star Wars' inititive. Pretty good investment in my opinion. That led to cell phones, WI-FI, and the development of the Silcon Valley miracle. Clinton balanced the budget AFTER Newt Gingrich and the Republicans took office during Bill's second term. Their contract with America was the impetus for that action.
All I hear from you is a tirade about the evil empire that you think the Republicans represent, but I would ask you to look at the GREAT FAILURES of LBJ...over $1Trillion spent to end poverty and ignorance. How is that working for you?
While we are on the subject of Bush II that you keep bringing up, he inherited a Recession when he took office (remember the Dot-Com debacle?) that started on Clinton's watch. He stimulated the economy through tax credits and lowering the tax rate on capital gains. That's how the Dot-com industry survived their excessive junk bond and worthless stock creation. The fact that 9/11 happened on his watch and he was forced to take action in a war was a terrible blow to what was a recovering debt problem. You will find that all wars are expensive and that is a situation that no president can control. What he can control is the expansion of entitlement programs and that is what is driving the current debt process in this country and the rest of the Developed nations in Western Europe. You simply cannot have more growth in government employment than private sector or you will have a situation that Greece, Spain, and others are facing. The people who pay for those GOV Employees are the working class and they are about tapped out.
Garry

 

[domtoni]

Garry thanks with the big Plus 1 !!!

 

[Jim Craik]

All I hear from you is a tirade about the evil empire that you think the Republicans represent

No Garry, what you hear from me is someone trying to counter the continual one sided rants that go on in this part of the site.

They continually say the tax and spend Dems will ruin the economy, that they will increase the debt, that the Dems will raise our taxes, take away our guns, and let illegal aliens take over the country.

This of course is not true. Look again at the graph, no one can spend and raise the debt like selfish Conservaties. Bush1 was elected with his bold lie "NO NEW TAXES", the Great Reagan pushed very hard for and passed the last Illegal alien amisty bill making them citizens and the great Reagan passed the last major gun control bill.

Who is ignoring facts?

 

[domtoni]

Jim, we have been talking about the economy, and now you take us to amnesty bills and gun control legislation?

 

[domtoni]

At the end of the day, I am not a one sided conservative. After listening to both right and left, the right wins the argument by being more thoughtful, perspective, and in tune with solve the problems of the country. I'll post tomorrow the Rasmussen poll info on the direction america.

I take my position because the country, your and my future is at stake. If the redistribution of wealth goes as Glenn Beck says, you can forget your P2264 as you probably won't be able to make enough money to support it or your desire for toys because you have surplus income.

I am in favour of seeing the poor do better because it will not only improve their lives, but it will improve our lives. The poor have to contribute, ie work for a living.

What the current administration is doing is making us poor. That makes everyone in the world poorer because we can't buy their products.

This making us poor will only fuel increased unrest in the world, more violence, crime, poverty, hunger etc.
I don't want to see that happen.

To rid ourselves of this, the first act this president should have done was put people back to work. He didn't realize his errors yet, and probably won't until after the election (if ever).

 

[Nick]

Nick, you do here the stories on BBC Radio about councils that give huge grants to people with countless children, and these people have no jobs, and probably don't have any intention of getting a job.

It's easy to jump on the "these people have no jobs, and probably don't have any intention of getting a job," along with there is always work for those who want it argument.

In fact it was a stance my mother took and led to some interesting heated discussions between us.

However, she has started to change her tune as for some time she has been voluntarily working at a club helping youngsters seeking work with CV's interviews techniques etc.

In our last discussion she said the candidates come full of enthusiasm and hope but they have not been able to find employment for one person, as and I quote from her "there are no jobs".