Moved - forum discussion on cars for sale, GTD for sale

wealdenengineer · Feb 16, 2010

Ron, you brought me into this debate with your last post. RON IS WRONG - you say that Simon is the only person to argue this point, but I have had many differences with you over this issue over a long period of time, and have argued vociferously with you. RON IS WRONG - the forum is about the passage of available information between members to do with the GT40 genre, freely and without bias it is hoped. Some of the most valuable information that can be given to new members and prospective owners of these cars, people who join up to get the info we ( the existing members ) can give them, is the guidance of where to look for the cars or parts they need, this includes the very type of information that Simon started this thread with. Here is a good deal for someone on the forum to take advantage of, Simons not selling it, Simons not taking a profit from it, Simons just telling you guys "heres a good deal ! and I am sure someone here will do just that and appreciate Simons posting. Many times I have known of such a deal, a car or unfinished project becoming available, the seller has no interest in the forum, as Simon says he is probably getting out of the game anyway ( probably disillusioned no doubt ) and is not targeting this medium to advertise his sale, its just information to you all that you would otherwise not know. The Forum is not EBAY, or Pistonheads, or any other commercial sales place, it is a group of like minded people willing to share the enthusiasm and the accumulated knowledge we collectively have. I have been here best part of 10 years, and have seen many new and very enthusiastic people join this club, only to fade away over a short period of 3 or 4 years, having either achieved the dream and moved on, or become disilusioned and moved on. My guess is that less that 10% of the people over those years are still members, or at least active contributors, and part of the reason for that may be the limiting factor of the administators. Frank

Ron Earp · Feb 16, 2010

wealdenengineer said:
Ron, you brought me into this debate with your last post. RON IS WRONG - you say that Simon is the only person to argue this point, but I have had many differences with you over this issue over a long period of time, and have argued vociferously with you.

Actually, I admitted my error by dredging up the old thread where we debated this topic at length.

wealdenengineer said:
RON IS WRONG - the forum is about the passage of available information between members to do with the GT40 genre, freely and without bias it is hoped.

Frank, I never said it was anything different. The forum is free to enjoy - you can participate, read, write, post pictures, send PMs, etc. all for free. Members that enjoy the forum can contribute to the running costs if they like, or not if they'd like. But if they wish to use the forum to sell a car they are obligated to contribute a small sum to the forum running costs.

wealdenengineer said:
I have been here best part of 10 years, and have seen many new and very enthusiastic people join this club, only to fade away over a short period of 3 or 4 years, having either achieved the dream and moved on, or become disilusioned and moved on. My guess is that less that 10% of the people over those years are still members, or at least active contributors, and part of the reason for that may be the limiting factor of the administators. Frank

So let me get this straight - you assert that I, all by my lonesome, have driven people away from the hobby of owning a GT40 (a hobby that is expensive, time consuming, and requires a large amount of perseverance) due to the policy that I put in place regarding the subforum that was created for selling cars?

p thompson · Feb 16, 2010

Oh well - time I stuck my oar in for the hell of it.

Forums cost money to run and time to maintain.

A GT40, finished, complete, part finished, as a kit, still remains a serious investment for the person purchasing and also represents a large sum of money to the person selling. (well it does to me, perhaps not to some of the high rollers on here...)

Anyway, bottom line is, if you sell your house, you pay a percentage. If you place an advert in a magazine or motoring journal, you pay for it (or at least you do for any material worth reading).

I have long since made my opinions on the matter clear but I'll remind for anyone who may have forgotten. When selling a car (complete, or not) I strongly believe that a donation should be made to the running costs of the forum. I have placed adverts, and for some time I have forwarded on £25 on each occasion. I will continue with that strategy.

I also currently know of two GTD40s that have not been advertised elsewhere, that will be for sale shortly (or already are) and having been approached about placing adverts, I have advised the same - PAY £25 (min) per advert/thread and post as many details, pics etc as you wish. It may also be that someone on here see's the advert and passes the details to someone who is a non-forum member/visitor - either way, there is nowhere you will get the exposure for your car for sale as on here. Both vendors are happy with this arrangement and what is £25 in the scale of the sale...

Ron's Forum - Ron's Rules - END OF...
IF he chooses to change them at any point, so be it, BUT it is HIS decision.

I'll not get drawn into other posts re the matter - end of.

but

Final point is that it generally sadden's me that most of what I perceive as bickering and tittle-tattle / moaning seems to generally be accompanied by a UK FLAG next to the poster's name.

Kind of makes me proud to be British - NOT :embarassed:

Scott Calabro · Feb 16, 2010

Simon,

List the car as your own.

Cheers,
S

mickky3 · Feb 16, 2010

I agree entirely with Frank, about "The passage of information". That is the reason I use this site.

But when does "The passage of information" become advertising ? A difficult question. This is one way to look at it...

If someone said they were looking for a part finished GT40, and Simon replied. "I know of one". That would be classed as "The passage of information"

But because Simon gave the information before, someone asked the question, it was then classed as advertising !!!!!!!

I have great respect for Ron, and other administrators on this forum, but maybe a bit of discretion, and rule bending, is needed at times

mick

Pete · Feb 16, 2010

I am absolutely on Ron's side in this $35.00 for the ability to advertise to a world wide target audience is cheap. Get over it!

Ron don't worry about the personal jibes, there has never been a statue erected of a critic.

molleur · Feb 16, 2010

+1 Pete! Listening Ron..

simonjrwinter · Feb 16, 2010

Pete said:
I am absolutely on Ron's side in this $35.00 for the ability to advertise to a world wide target audience is cheap.

That's as maybe, I've paid my $35 so I fee I have the right to use the forum to place the car in front of the forum members for consideration. I am getting NO benefit (quite the opposite seeing the above grief) from any transaction, it's NOT my car and the owner will NOT pay $35 to advertise it. I'm doing this for the good of the forum and it's members END OF.

"Final point is that it generally sadden's me that most of what I perceive as bickering and tittle-tattle / moaning seems to generally be accompanied by a UK FLAG next to the poster's name."

I'm saddened you feel that way Paul, it makes no difference to me, I'm not getting anything out of it AT ALL! just trying to do a service to the fellow members on the forum, maybe I'll just have to shut up and say "bo11ocks" to any thoughts of doing a good turn for fellow enthusiasts.

a while back now but....
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/all-gt40/9197-gt40-sale.html
Why would this have been posted if not to do a good turn for another forum member?

Simon

Ron Earp · Feb 16, 2010

simonjrwinter said:
That's as maybe, I've paid my $35 so I fee I have the right to use the forum to place the car in front of the forum members for consideration. I am getting NO benefit (quite the opposite seeing the above grief) from any transaction, it's NOT my car and the owner will NOT pay $35 to advertise it. I'm doing this for the good of the forum and it's members END OF.

Whatever happened to the days of abiding by the rules? Look, the rules were in place when you joined the free GT40s.com site. At some point you wanted to advertise your car for sale on the site. You paid $35. You advertised your car. Now you want to advertise another car, but a car that you do not own. The site rules prohibit it. The site rules for which you continually flaunt your disregard.

But instead of abiding by the rules you want to have the rules changed for your wishes. Is this how folks expect the world to work, changing behavior and rules to suit their wishes?

And, while I respect your opinion it would appear that you are in the minority expressing the "reverse payer system" that you'd like where forum members pay to see advertisements on the site. Seriously, if people had to pay to see the advertisements I doubt that there would be many views of an advert.

Simon, just in case you weren't clear how the forum worked when you decided to buy an advertisement (or donate money to forum costs, I'm not sure what you want to call it) I'm going to make sure that your money is returned to you in whole. I understand that you're dissatisfied with the operation of GT40s.com and if I can do something that simple to make it better for you then I'm going to do it.

Regarding a PayPal subforum I'm not opposed to it 100% (the reasons for my dislike of the PayPal subforum are well-documented elsewhere). Might be a good thing for the members and I'll put it up for poll and see about getting it instituted.

Gregg · Feb 16, 2010

Re: GTD for sale

simonjrwinter said:
I give up!:thumbsdown:

I knew that wouldn't be the end of it.

Ron, stick to your guns. The rules are in place for a reason. There seems to be a select few that always think they can do as they please. Perhaps Simon can take a time out and review the rules to see if he can abide by them. Isn't baby sitting rewarding. I called you a couple of weeks ago. I will send a follow up pm about a shop in NC. Thanks. Gregg

RichardH · Feb 16, 2010

I think we are in danger of confusing two different issues here, and I might be muddying the water, but there is
a) selling your car and
b) pointing out equipment/cars/parts to others.
I realise that might be some overlap, but if I want to sell my car than a fee is a realistic
option, but if i see one on ebay/papers/etc and think it might be of use to others, then I would object to paying for the benefit of a third party, especially if i were to not get any benefit.
As said before, this is Rons site and Rons Rulez - OK? but I am sure that a single line entry, particularly if it wasnt the seller posting (I realise that would be extremely difficult to police) just pointing out a link or similar, would bring more benefits than problems.
Lets face it, if you want to sell your car, would is more effective, a free single line entry or a 35£/$ full page spread with pics, write-up and details?

aladinsane · Feb 16, 2010

+1 Pete! ^

Joules5 · Feb 17, 2010

I have been registered on GT40s for a while and seem to see this argument come up with some regularity and for the most part stay away from such posts. At risk of getting flamed here's my take;

Frank makes some excellent points; a forum should be by the people for the benefit of the people. It can only grow if the passage of knowledge is embraced, IMHO that may be in technical discussion, parts availability/for sale or cars for sale, whether by the owner or word of mouth. FWIW I don't consider this a great place to advertise a car anyway as most find this site post purchase as owners for technical advice, how many newbie’s post "looking for a GT40"?

As for other forums I'm a member of a few, none of which I have ever paid (or been asked to pay) a dime for as they are supported by vendors or manufacturers not individual members. Quite frankly I'm more active on some of those forums than here as for the most part I find the discussion here degenerates into tittle-tattle, rants and tirades. Don’t get me wrong there is some extremely useful and valuable information once you peel through all the politics of who can do what, but isn’t the success of a forum in the sharing as much as the taking? (and not in the monetary sense).

In regard to advertising fees, both Piston Heads and Ebay were mentioned and both are actually free to advertise a car for sale (Ebay in the US anyway) and IMHO there is no better exposure than Ebay.

One comment summed it up very succinctly for me "Ron's Forum - Ron's Rules END OF…", yes it is and that point seems to be being made every other day in some form. It is sad that is how it is viewed, because it reflects that the members and their opinion are wholly disregarded, all I’d say is it'd be mighty lonely world for Ron if he were the only member.....

Rant over, back to your regular schedule.....oh wait this is it.

Russ Noble · Feb 17, 2010

Joules5 said:
One comment summed it up very succinctly for me "Ron's Forum - Ron's Rules END OF…", yes it is and that point seems to be being made every other day in some form. It is sad that is how it is viewed, because it reflects that the members and their opinion are wholly disregarded, all I’d say is it'd be mighty lonely world for Ron if he were the only member.....
.

Totally wrong!

Ron appears more than happy to change the format of this forum if that is what a majority of the members desire. IMO this forum is one of the best car forums on the net due in no small part to Ron's drive and influence.

The rules he has laid down are what he has evolved as suitable to him for running a forum like this. Maybe in some eyes they are not perfect but never the less, as a result, we have undeniably the best GT40 resource available anywhere. Without Ron's drive and direction where would we be?

I have sympathies for both sides of this discussion but ultimately Ron is the man who runs this great site and has to deal with the issues and make the rules. Therefore I say, show a little respect for what he has achieved and for what we all benefit from.

Is it perfect? Maybe not? But he is constantly striving to improve. Who else has got off their arse to facilitate the provision of a resource such as he has?! I say again, show a little respect for what he has achieved, the benefits we receive, and the way that he goes about it.

nota2266 · Feb 17, 2010

I cant see what the problem is, this site was setup by Ron for the exchange of information between like minded individuals pursuing a common goal, building cars. When I joined the site several years ago It was pretty clear that it was not a site for "selling stuff."

Advising someone where to get component parts etc is to me not "selling stuff", however a post advising that someone has a car for sale is vastly different.

Over time a facility has been created within the site for vendors who pay a reasonable fee. This facility appears to work and as far as I know the vendors dont complain.

I cant see a need to change the format and I do not believe it is unreasonable to expect a vendor to pay a reasonable fee for advertising his or her wares.

simonjrwinter · Feb 17, 2010

It seems I am wrong. The members of the forum do NOT want to be advised of cars for sale, unless the owners of the cars are already forum subscribers. Ah well, don't say I didn't try.
By the way, I hope that I made it QUITE clear that this "disagreement" was caused by me trying to benefit the members of the forum and NOT by me trying to profit or evade paying in any way.
Don't worry though chaps, I won't be trying to "help" in future.

Simon:lipsrsealed:

Ron Earp · Feb 17, 2010

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ersonal; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-unhide:no; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Verdana; mso-hansi-font-family:Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> So, two years later and the same discussion with essentially the same players. I think I must have said something like this before, but I feel there is a difference in philosophy from the US/UK when it comes to selling cars. On casual inspection the UK likes to operate on word of mouth, club contacts, who you know, and in many cases via “private” or “exclusive” sales. Or, that is what I gather by the number of times Frank and others post writing “I know of a GT40 for sale, but the owner doesn’t want to deal with anyone and doesn’t post on the web”, and things of this nature. Seems a bit different than in the US where folks selling cars are extremely open, want a lot of exposure, and are happy to pay for the exposure.<o

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In any event, we’re going to implement a couple of changes. It seems some folks, and I’m not sure how many because I’m just judging by this thread, wish to have a subforum for members to post items for sale they find elsewhere. So, we’re going to have one. There will be some rules though, a distillation of some of the suggestions that were given. I’ll get the subforum up later today and put a sticky up with the rules for the subforum. However, the car subforum is going to stay like just as it is now and this new subforum is not for cars.<o

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I’m going to implement a “Sell A Car” program so it won’t get confused with “Supporting the Forum”. I thought it was long understood that if you were here just to sell a car then you’d naturally figure out that you could just purchase the cheapest forum support, a Bronze level, for $35 and be done with it. But apparently there are those that think that if I’m leaving the hobby why would I support the forum? Well, I suppose the obvious answer of “it can help sell your car” isn’t enough. So, we’ll have a “Sell a Car” support level, for $25, that lasts six weeks.

Joules5 said:
In regard to advertising fees, both Piston Heads and Ebay were mentioned and both are actually free to advertise a car for sale (Ebay in the US anyway) and IMHO there is no better exposure than Ebay.

I've bought and sold cars via Ebay. You are incorrect when you imply that it is free to sell using Ebay. It is far from it. Ebay pulls their take from the transaction as a percentage of the sale. So it is not free to use Ebay at all, in fact it is quite expensive in comparison to other means.<o

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Keith1 · Feb 17, 2010

Christ, this is like pushing shit uphill. It doesn't matter what the issue is, the site owner has said that he will change rules if the majority consent. He doesn't HAVE to do that, it is his site and can do what he likes.

The majority have not commented so obviously like it the way it is. It's called democracy..

I am frankly appalled with the outcome of this discussion. Cannot it not be reasoned and non partisan?

(Paul are you really ashamed to be British because 2 or 3 people disagree on a minor point of order that won't change the world in anyway? If you are then shame on you too! What you should be commenting on is the fact that none of the UK commentators on this thread are supporters of the forum in any case! It kind of puts a perspective on the argument.

I have no horse in this race but if I did, as someone mentioned, $35 for access to a specialist target market is peanuts. Remember that many thousands of people "lurk" and are not members.

So stop arguing and get on with the building you silly boys....:quirk:

egoman · Feb 17, 2010

All though I would like to see the cars that are for sale, the rules were there when you signed up. Of course if the rules were to change regarding for sale items it would not necessarily be a bad thing.
It was said in an earlier post that if someone asked for something and another responded then it would be OK. The problem with that is the cars built here are for the most part individuals. The best ideas or cars may be there but we didnt know how to ask for them.

iank2112 · Feb 17, 2010

Joules5 said:
In regard to advertising fees, both Piston Heads and Ebay were mentioned and both are actually free to advertise a car for sale (Ebay in the US anyway) and IMHO there is no better exposure than Ebay.

What ???? It's free to list, but it's not really free. If the car sells, eBay gets a cut.
Once you successfully sell 4 vehicles, future listings are $50, but you pay no fee
for successful sale within 12 months. After 12 months, you are back to square one -
first 4 sales the listing is free, but eBay gets a cut of the successful sale. And,
just an FYI - the cut for successful sales is $60 for sales under $2000, and $125 for
over $2000. So, no, eBay is not really free.

Also, as far as "transfer of info" - I have no beef with paid members responding to
people looking for a car by posting "I know of one, contact me" or "I know of one,
contact this person". But, posting a for sale advert, with pics and contact info,
the actual seller should incur some sort of fee. As above, even eBay gets its piece
of the action.

Ian

Moved - forum discussion on cars for sale, GTD for sale

Frank Catt

Ron Earp

Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'

Scott Calabro

Mick Ridley

Pete McCluskey.

Jack

Simon

Ron Earp

Gregg

Gregg

RichardH

AKA The Mad Hat Man

Tim Kay

Julian

Russ Noble

Trevor Booth

Simon

Ron Earp

Keith

egoman/ Shawn Wedge

Ian K

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