Moved - forum discussion on cars for sale, GTD for sale
- Thread starter simonjrwinter
- Start date
RichardH
AKA The Mad Hat Man
I think you must be right there, Ron. I am a member of several forums in the UK, some I am quite heavily involved in. All are free, posting of links, info and useful items is commonplace. Payment tends to be limited to commercial organisations and not to individuals. Selling areas are also free to individuals. This does not seem to be the case in the US and Canada.
British forums (or at least the ones I am on) seem to be a lot less reverential and, on occasions, downright abusive. Certainly the Canadian forums I have knowledge of appear to be very straightlaced in comparison.
Maybe there is where the difference of opinion comes from. I appreciate your attempts at crossing this divide, albeit at a loss of income. Hopefully this will be covered by an increase in membership to compensate.
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi Keith -
As is very often the case, you are correct.
It was a somewhat flippant remark on my part purely as a reaction to the fact that I often feel that much (not all) of the aggravation, stirring of the pot and other such malarkey seems to originate from the UK sector of forum membership/users. This is an observation/opinion that I hold, some may agree, some may disagree and in reality my personal opinion really does not matter but that is how I see it.
So to correct my post - 'No, I am not ashamed of being British at all, in fact far from it'.
May sanity return to the house at the earliest possible convenience as the natives are revolting...
A potted history: -
Some four months ago, I posted on here that I was unsure of which route to take in terms of GT40 ownership. I was given a huge amount of help from a great many people. One of those people was Simon Winter. He very kindly helped me decide that if I could find a second hand, part built '40, then that may be the cheapest entry point into ownership. Duly noted, I was then helped by Simon to find the very same car that this has caused all the trouble over. I contacted the owner and was within a hair of buying the car until I very luckily found the RCR I now own.
So, If we deal in facts -not emotions, then the following is true: -
Without help and being told of the location of a car for sale I would not be in the great position I am now in. Thanks to Simon for that.
I am now a Silver supporter of the forum BECAUSE of the help I received, so the forum has gained a member, and valuable revenue.
I have no axe to grind with anyone on here, nor do I have favorites. I have disagreed with Simon vociferously in the past over '40 related mods, yet we still keep in contact over issues that (if I am honest(, benefit me a lot more than him.
Likewise Ron, no axe to grind with you either. I think this is a case where there is the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and in this case the law is a tad inflexible.
As to whether you have been insulted or maligned in this threads Ron, I don't believe that to be the case. People have been forthright in their opinions, but have not attacked you personally, which would have been wrong on many levels.
there is no point bickering about giving Simon back his money, as this brings the debate down to a different level, and this is essentially a difference in opinion, albeit a strong one.
Rons Rulez is fine - but lets remember the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. The changes you are making I think will represent a good compromise to the situation.
Let's all remember that all Frank / Simon were trying to do was help someone into the seat of a GT40, and that can't be a bad thing.
Cheers,
Graham.
Some four months ago, I posted on here that I was unsure of which route to take in terms of GT40 ownership. I was given a huge amount of help from a great many people. One of those people was Simon Winter. He very kindly helped me decide that if I could find a second hand, part built '40, then that may be the cheapest entry point into ownership. Duly noted, I was then helped by Simon to find the very same car that this has caused all the trouble over. I contacted the owner and was within a hair of buying the car until I very luckily found the RCR I now own.
So, If we deal in facts -not emotions, then the following is true: -
Without help and being told of the location of a car for sale I would not be in the great position I am now in. Thanks to Simon for that.
I am now a Silver supporter of the forum BECAUSE of the help I received, so the forum has gained a member, and valuable revenue.
I have no axe to grind with anyone on here, nor do I have favorites. I have disagreed with Simon vociferously in the past over '40 related mods, yet we still keep in contact over issues that (if I am honest(, benefit me a lot more than him.
Likewise Ron, no axe to grind with you either. I think this is a case where there is the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and in this case the law is a tad inflexible.
As to whether you have been insulted or maligned in this threads Ron, I don't believe that to be the case. People have been forthright in their opinions, but have not attacked you personally, which would have been wrong on many levels.
there is no point bickering about giving Simon back his money, as this brings the debate down to a different level, and this is essentially a difference in opinion, albeit a strong one.
Rons Rulez is fine - but lets remember the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. The changes you are making I think will represent a good compromise to the situation.
Let's all remember that all Frank / Simon were trying to do was help someone into the seat of a GT40, and that can't be a bad thing.
Cheers,
Graham.
Great story Graham, and I agree with much of what you say. But, there is a fundamental
difference between pointing someone to a car for sale, and outright advertising it. I am
pretty sure nobody has any qualms about someone coming in, asking the forum where they
can find a car for sale, and have someone reply with "Contact me" or "Contact John Q. Public",
which is exactly what it sounds like happened with you (even though you didn't buy the
vehicle Simon pointed you to). However, to outright advertise a car for sale is a wholly
different beast, and in that regard, if an owner is interested in selling their car here, they
should at least spend the fairly trivial fee to advertise it here. $35 is really a pittance when
you are looking for $10K or more.
Now, it looks like Ron is going to create a $25 for 6 week listing for those who don't want
to spend the extra $10 for a year of being able to advertise cars, parts, etc. In all honesty,
I think that is fair - again, one is not going to find a place better place to sell GT40 related
cars, parts, products to a global captive targeted audience than you will here, nor will one
find such a medium that will let you do so for free.
Ian
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Ian +1, well said.
At the end of the day, if anyone knows where there is a GT40 for sale, it is not his, and the owner of the car does not know or not want to advertise on the forum, it is not allowed to be "advertised" (for want of a better word) and the GT40 community at large may not get to know about it.
This is NOT about making money (not for me anyway) but about helping out other enthusiasts, and as far as I can see, if there's no money to be made, then there's no way of telling other enthusiasts about the car.
For me that's a sad reflection on the forum.
Simon
ps, please don't reply with a post saying "but it's only $25..." if you haven't read the above properly, you don't understand the problem.
I think that's all I have to say on the matter.
This is NOT about making money (not for me anyway) but about helping out other enthusiasts, and as far as I can see, if there's no money to be made, then there's no way of telling other enthusiasts about the car.
For me that's a sad reflection on the forum.
Simon
ps, please don't reply with a post saying "but it's only $25..." if you haven't read the above properly, you don't understand the problem.
I think that's all I have to say on the matter.
Simon,
It is a matter of differing philosophies. Currently, the majority seem to share the one
that supports the current policy. It isn't a sad reflection on the forum at all, but rather,
I find it refreshing that so many people coming from different cultures, backgrounds, and
financial levels can, for the most part, agree on this.
I also believe that you can post "I know of a car for sale. Contact me offlist/privately".
outside the "For Sale" forum. When it reaches the point of posting pictures and stating
price, you have gone beyond sharing information and ventured into advertising.
I'd also add that the $25/$35 is a small fee that actually keeps this forum alive, which
is also "helping out other enthusiasts", probably more so than linking individual sellers with
individual buyers.
Ian
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Simon,
Why not make money?
Front, or charge up front, the "owner", the small forum fee of $35. Then do the leg work to "Register" on the forum as the owner.
When the car sells you charge a fee plus the forum registration cost, if you paid it up front.
You could be a phantom broker so to speak!
Then everyone here is happy and you get to defray the costs of your project.
Why not make money?
Front, or charge up front, the "owner", the small forum fee of $35. Then do the leg work to "Register" on the forum as the owner.
When the car sells you charge a fee plus the forum registration cost, if you paid it up front.
You could be a phantom broker so to speak!
Then everyone here is happy and you get to defray the costs of your project.
Broker - AKA Vendor.. I do believe that Vendors here require a very special membership do they not?
I don't think so...
Get a life Randy, it was a joke.
Right...
I guess you gotta be good at something... :laugh:
Back to our regularly scheduled gab about GT40s and the famous cars and drivers of the same era and genre..
Simon,
It is great that people want to help both the forum members and the person selling a car. Why dont you suggest to the person selling a car that he can advertise his car on a specialty site that targets people interrested in his specific car for a very small price. Personally I would suggest to them to do the $35 member ship as it can sometimes take time to sell a car.
It would help him sell his car, get the car to an interrested person maybe a future or current site member and generate funds for the site. I don't know how much it costs to run a site like this but I also know $ 25 - 35 is not alot of money especially when you are talking about selling what can be very expensive cars.
Ron you run a fine site. I have benefitted from it for many years before I became a donating member. The members here have always been more than helpful and very few were rude or condasending when I have asked questions.
Thanks
Jim
It is great that people want to help both the forum members and the person selling a car. Why dont you suggest to the person selling a car that he can advertise his car on a specialty site that targets people interrested in his specific car for a very small price. Personally I would suggest to them to do the $35 member ship as it can sometimes take time to sell a car.
It would help him sell his car, get the car to an interrested person maybe a future or current site member and generate funds for the site. I don't know how much it costs to run a site like this but I also know $ 25 - 35 is not alot of money especially when you are talking about selling what can be very expensive cars.
Ron you run a fine site. I have benefitted from it for many years before I became a donating member. The members here have always been more than helpful and very few were rude or condasending when I have asked questions.
Thanks
Jim
Ron Earp
Admin
Guys, it is what it is. Thanks for all the comments regarding the pros and cons of various methods. At the end of the day the "pay to play" concept seems to work just fine. Most people seem to like it or are ok with it, the forum gets a little money toward operating expenses, and it is really simple to implement via software. No moderation needed or anything like that.
As with any community with over 3500 active members there will be differences in opinions as to how the forum should operate. I think we should consider ourselves fortunate that the differences do not often arise.
As with any community with over 3500 active members there will be differences in opinions as to how the forum should operate. I think we should consider ourselves fortunate that the differences do not often arise.
Ron, I applaud your move on the advertising, it is a sensible way to go and I fully endorse it. However, this particular thread is about the benefits and methods of passing information between members and participants of this Forum, not particularly about selling cars at all. All I am interested in is that members et al should be best informed on all matters GT40, and if that includes info on cars or parts available from a third party source ( i.e NOT ME ) then I think that is valid info. If a seller wishes to take the benefit of the FORUM then yes without doubt they should pay for the priveledge. There is clearly some distrust about Simon or my motives in this, but I firmly believe that free and open information is the essence of this group of like minded individuals.
Hi Frank,
I think the issue comes down to passing information vs. advertising. Again, I don't think
anyone cares if someone posts they are looking for a GT40 or parts, and someone
replies with "Contact me" or "Contact John Q. Public". I suspect that the real gray area
will be if someone posts "I know of a GT40 for sale, contact me". But, it is black and white
when someone posts pictures, specs, and pricing as well as contact info - that is no
longer passing information but outright advertising, and by the rules, a fee is required.
Ian
Ron Earp
Admin
And this exact scenario is what started this thread. Basically "I know of a car for sale, the owner doesn't use the forum, contact me".
But, as you pointed out that isn't how the forum is setup to work. In this particular instance the car was Simon's old car and the owner of the car does use the forum - he even posted on this thread and is David, or "rekab69" in user name. So he could have posted the car himself as he is capable of posting on the forum as his post count clearly indicates.
David's Post RE: Cars for Sale
Only he knows why he didn't list his own car for sale.
It's less gray than that Ron. Simon posted pics, details of what is included, and an
estimated price. No gray there - straight advertisement. Just posting "I know about a
car for sale, contact me and I'll send the info" is less advertising than what Simon
did, and is more in line with passing information.
Ian
Surely its clear that advertising for companies and people making money should be paid for, but, clearly Simon is not in this position and not working on behalf of a company. I can't see that in this case it should be an issue.
I know there can be a fine line between one thing and the other, but, there is also a feeling that over regulation can harm the community spirit of the site and alienate people. Simon has said exactly this before, and its a major problem on other forums, where it can get close to bullying. I guess there is no way to please everyone with this issue, and for Ron its a symptom of the problems of making money out of community websites like this. It might look to some like you are trying hard to squeeze payment from everyone for your benefit and not the benefit of the community. Very difficult issue to hendle.
I know there can be a fine line between one thing and the other, but, there is also a feeling that over regulation can harm the community spirit of the site and alienate people. Simon has said exactly this before, and its a major problem on other forums, where it can get close to bullying. I guess there is no way to please everyone with this issue, and for Ron its a symptom of the problems of making money out of community websites like this. It might look to some like you are trying hard to squeeze payment from everyone for your benefit and not the benefit of the community. Very difficult issue to hendle.
