Why Can't The Greatest Country On Earth Be Like The Australians?

This was sent to me by an Aussie chum:
"Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you,” he said on national television.
"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.
Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off.
Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off," he said.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."
"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand."
"This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."
"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom" "We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!"
Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right; wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."
"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."
"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go," then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.
"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.'"
"If you aren’t happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Maybe, our spineless UK government will find the backbone to do something along the same lines.

Tony Hunt
 
Tony, I fully agree.

Everyone I speak to when politics and imigration raises its head seems to think the same way too. Some of our friends are moving abroad just to get away from the current political climate in the UK.

It seems the world has gone mad with trying not to offend anyone on the one hand, while being a 'nanny state' on the other by dictating what we can and cannot say/do.

I have no problem with other nationalities coming and settling in the uk (legally), even if they create ex-pat communities. they do need to realise they must live by our rules and laws though.

I read something in the paper last week about how the government have finally realised imported cheap labour hasn't fixed the countries problems, but created a whole host more.

Bugger. Seems I managed to step up on the old soap box :rolleyes: ;)
 
I've got news for you. Even though John Howard has been described as an extreme right wing conservative, those words have never been published anywhere in the general Australian media. And believe me, if Howard or Costello had made all those comments, they would have been. Not that he didn't make similar more subdued comments, but even he knows that these comments would have been political suicide.

Furthermore, there have been several revolts within his own government recently and in one case describing his proposed laws as "disturbing" and crossing the floor to vote against them, so if you want to find a country that practices racist policies, then I suggest you look elsewhere.

Does it tell you something incidentally, that the people who support these views need to invent situations to support their argument? You would have thought that had these views been anything other than lunatic fringe, there would be an abundance of real situations to draw on.
 

Keith

Moderator
It's touched a chord in the UK whether it's real or not, as we are an overcrowded dumped on pretty tolerant bunch that are getting to the end of our tether.

I also doubt whether he said it, but he should have done.
 
And around it goes again... It's like a bloody chain letter...

Why bring that crap here?

This forum is bloody depressing sometimes, I really thought it'd finally outgrown this.

Let the insults fly I guess.

Tim.
 
So, Chris and Tim, I'm interested in your opinion. Do you see a potential problem with extremist muslims in Australia? If so, then what, if anything, should your government and citizens do to stop the spread of an anti-western mindset from within your borders or worse, to prevent a terrorist attack?
 
If you want a point of similarity between us then one of my opinions is that "Sharia law", "Christian law" etc have no place in Law. That's about as close as I get to the tired bullsh!t above.

The message, context and timing is the same as always.
Starts off with Sharia law, moves to Muslims, then to Foreigners, then to non-Christians. Multicultural society is to blame (apparently)!
If you don't agree with any of this you are not patriotic and you are also PC - oh no not a Girly man...!

The usual - Waits for something bad to happen, starts with the easy stuff then degenerates into another "If you're not me your one of them" piece.

Whomever it is that's exactly right to the exclusion of all others will ultimately have a very lonely life.

We live through hard times, none of us are denying or debating that. There are big problems. The simplistic, rascist ramblings above are not a solution, they just try to get people to align their anger to the authors cause.
Better those people use their brains and work through their own opinions than just accepting the above rantings as an easy replacement.

Oh yeah, insults are not opinion, they're just easy.

This forum struggles with division occasionally. People with otherwise valuable contribution have felt driven from it. It does not need this.
Some are easily angered. When tragedy hits some say things that can be a step too far - understandable.
Personally I know there are people on here that I will never agree with on the subject of war etc but they otherwise command my respect.

Tim.
 
Oh yeah and Mark, with questions like that you'd do well writing for some of the political polls floating around recently. Talk about loaded. :)

Tim.
 
Tim, I'll still respect you in the morning! I promise!

But you seem to be borrowing a page from the "other side's" playbook when you paint as racists those who have valid concerns about how to deal with radical Islam. Really, how different is your immediate reaction to play the racist card from the sequence of Sharia law -> Muslims -> Foreigners -> non Christians -> monocultural society? Yes, there are racists who would unfairly persecute Arabs and muslims just like there are politically correct weenies who will continue to be islamofascist apologists even after one of our cities gets nuked by terrorists.

If someone is driven from this forum on account of a post in the paddock then I saw they are too thin-skinned and need to realize that, just possibly, theirs might not be the only valid opinion. I suspect they are members of the politically correct crowd, which, in my opinion, tends to shun open debate but prefers to criticize without offering alternatives or solutions. Tim, at the risk of being perceived as picking on you, I suggest your dodging my question places you firmly in the politically correct camp. You label a post as racist, yet you don't care to acknowledge that we have a problem with radical Islam nor do you offer a solution that might be copatible with your political viewpoint.

I think that you and I can at least agree that sharia law has no place in the judicial branch of our respective countries.

Chris, do you care to respond to my questions?
 
...Really, how different is your immediate reaction to play the racist card from the sequence of Sharia law -> Muslims -> Foreigners -> non Christians -> (multi)cultural society? ...
- Call it something else then, personally I think the sequence speaks for itself.
If you have a different picture then fair enough.
FWIW I am not calling you rascist, I am calling that document rascist - in the word's descriptive sense.

...Tim, at the risk of being perceived as picking on you, I suggest your dodging my question...
- I gave my reasons for not offering further opinion. I do not want to see this forum abused (IMO) like this. I don't want to add fuel to the flames because I firmly believe that this isn't the place for it. "The paddock" may be ok in some minds but to me this discussion has in the past driven wedges right across the forum. I enjoy this forum like no other. My original post said no more than that.
You asked for my opinion on the subject, I did not offer it.
If for no other reason I think this thread should stop because it is a virtual mirror of a previous thread. The roundabout has to stop sometime.
I have made the mistake of arguing here before, I don't wish to do it again.

...I think that you and I can at least agree that sharia law has no place in the judicial branch of our respective countries.
- Further to that, I believe that neither Religion nor racial difference have any place in Law.

Tim.
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Chris Liokos said:
I've got news for you. Even though John Howard has been described as an extreme right wing conservative, those words have never been published anywhere in the general Australian media. And believe me, if Howard or Costello had made all those comments, they would have been. Not that he didn't make similar more subdued comments, but even he knows that these comments would have been political suicide.

These comments were published in the Brisbane Courier Mail as it happens.
 
Pete,
I can’t comment on what was written in a paper on the other side of the country, but I can assure you that what is written above is a twisted version of what was reported here in Melbourne, where the story originated. I won't go through it word for word, but I will use the example of the Muslim cleric and the two laws.

I watched the original interview on the TV with the cleric. The cleric was specifically asked by the interviewer if he believed that there were two laws, to which he answered there were. The cleric was then asked to say which law he believed was more important, to which he answered God’s laws are the only true laws and that man’s laws were false. Howard was later asked to respond, to which he said that all Australians must live by Australian laws. Neither Howard nor Costello said that God’s laws were false.

So where is the story? Any man of God would say that he believes in Gods laws regardless of whether he is Muslim, Catholic or Buddhist or whatever. And you can bet that any politician would say that he believes in the law of the land above all else. But beat up the comments into a racial or terrorist frenzy and you have a story that will sell newspapers to the gullible.

Mark,
You want a solution? Before you can understand the solution, you need to understand the problem. Putting a label on the cause such as “anti-western mindset” is simplistic and only exacerbates the us-and-them attitude which is in fact one of the real causes. I could write pages and pages on this forum explaining my understanding of the multitude of causes, but I would still only touch the surface… but I will try and write something within the limitations of this forum just because I am assuming that you want to know.

Firstly, and possibly the greatest issue, is the dispute over the land that is shared by the Palestinians and the Israelis. Both have a legitimate claim to the land and both have a right to live there in piece. Predictably, because of the history of the land, the dispute has become polarized on religious and racial grounds. A battle ensues and the stronger power fights with planes and tanks, and the weaker power fights with their limited weaponry, suicide bombers. Unfortunately in trying to help solve this issue, whenever the west becomes involved, rather than attempt to defuse the religious and racial divisions it feeds it both politically and militarily. So we now have a situation where, not only have we inadvertently escalated the situation, but we have also defined ourselves as a recognizable enemy to one of the sides based on race and religion. What is the solution here? Divorce ourselves from any racial and religious implications and divorce ourselves from taking sides. The next thing is to do what any mother would do when seeing two children arguing, and that is to bang their heads together and say “I don’t care who started it, you both stop it”. Most Muslim leaders have said that they would be actively pulling in any wayward extremists if they were permitted to live in piece.

Secondly, and this is the one that I have greatest issue with. To solve the problem, you must firstly make sure your actions don’t make it worse. The terrorist issue is not a war. There is no state, there are no borders and there are no controlling leaders. It is a struggle in the same way that you struggle against crime. You are far more likely to be killed in a botched robbery than you are in a terrorist attack, so once you put it into perspective, you can then treat it as a criminal issue. If we instead whip up fear and play the racial card (and that is exactly what we are doing) we dehumanize and marginalize people on that basis, and they will respond as sure as night follows day. This is the cause of “home grown” terrorism and has nothing to do with the hate of westerners.

Finally, by invading a country like Iraq and killing innocent children, mothers, fathers, sons, daughter… we have drawn in a people that were not previously involved, convinced them that we are all barbarians and created a whole new generation of terrorists. Al Quada love what we have done for recruitment. Our politicians have claimed that this same war has been won at least three times, but we all know that this is a lie. The unfortunate reality is that this invasion has now pushed the solution at least another generation away.

I apologies for such a long reply, but I can't see how something like this can be kept short (it’s too short as it is) and I am well aware that I have cosequently left big holes in my arguments. But I hope at least that I have made some point about the complexity of the issue and the futility of flying the race flag.
 
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Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Chris, You will note that I have carefully avoided expressing an opinion on this.
You made the comment that "these words have never been published". I simply refuted that. If that upsets you so be it.

People can read your comments and make their own minds up.
 
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