Superlite GTA

DSM enthusiasts (especially the old timers) are pretty serious “do it yourselfers” and racers , most have been moving onto newer platforms because our beloved 4G63 vehicles have become too old or they look like they should be driven by an 18 year old kid. APEX could have be THE VEHICLE for us to stick with DSMs.]

It was never said that you couldn't fabricate it to be such as you want. If I was into 4g63's, why not grab an Audi or Boxster transaxle and bolt her up and let it rip? I don't think there is any space issues to fitment, but Fran has decided to stick with a package he knows and one that has financial cross over. It certainly doesn't mean that you can't "do it yourself". Guys are sticking rotaries and Toyo's in their SLC. Fact, the 4G63 would be killer in a SLC and you'd have a very light killer package to run down some GTR's with.

I really think Fran explained his rational from a business perspective above. Never in this was the Mitzi engine suggested to be inferior. It simply required too much out of box thinking and support to be a good business model. A great car doesn't mean a great business. How many times has Aston been exchanged? GREAT CARS but lost a lot of money over the years.
 
I agree. In the grand scheme of things, I would think this changes very little for the die hard 4G63 guys. Considering the amount of work/money that is required to make the APEX what's an extra grand and couple weeks (blind guess) to do the build with a 4G63 if that's what you want. Motor mounts and a trans adapter plate (probably already created) seem very doable. And if you have Fran do it...I think he already created something for the original car, just guessing that it wouldn't break the bank. I'm not sure what the plans are for the supported harness of the 1.8 but I doubt it would be much different for the 4G63. In other words what exactly does "supported" mean or include and how why would that change everything.

Seems like originally Fran said the 2.7t was going to be supported but recently he said only the 1.8t would be supported (not sure this means 2.7 is not), but I'm pretty sure I'm going to go forward with the 2.7t anyway so I guess well almost be in the same boat.
 
The 2.7 fits in the same space without issue and uses the same transaxle
We are supporting the 1.8 as a base to make our lives easier and simpler

The Apex can be many things to many people just like any other component car
I am looking forward to seeing what people do with it
 
1.8t, 2.7, 2.8 & 3.0 v-6, 4.0 W8 and the 4.2 V-8 VAG engines most likely all bolt right up to the same chassis mounts.

One thing that VAG is very good at, it's using the same parts , both internal and external on different engine packages and making these engines very, very compact so they can sit in front of the axles and behind the grill. From what I have found scouring the internet, the Audi 4.2 V-8 is roughly 8 inches shorter than a Ford 302 too.


For those wanting to run a different engine than the VAG engines, if Fran doesn't have an adapter plate, it's quite likely that Kennedy Engineered Products does. They make Porsche/Audi Adaptors for just about everything.


DSM "Oldtimers" :lol::bow: Hahahaha... Sorry, can't help myself, that's pretty funny. My first 10 cars were made before the first Mitsubishi Eclipse came out with my oldest car being a 1947 Chevy Sedan Deluxe.

Us old timers have kids older than than the DSM crowd and we but Big block Chevy, Ford and Chrysler engines into everything we could squeeze them into... Vega, Chevette, Pinto, Yugo, T buckets, Model A, Deuce coupes... and we did it with welders, torches and imagination.

Engine mounts are about the easiest part of chassis fabrication all you need to do is set the engine at the correct angles both front/rear and side to side and correct centerline and weld the mounts in. Getting it set up can be done with nothing more than string, a tape measure a level and a little grade school math. Want to know what the correct angle and placement is, find an original car with that engine and take a few basic measurements, it ain't rocket science.

A true car enthusiast might not be able to do everything... body, paint, mechanical , electrical or fabrication but they will know someone that can do what they can't and if they don't like the way something came from the factory they don't complain about it, they get together with their buddies and make it work or look the way they want it too.

I didn't care that the car was designed originally for the 4G63 or now the 1.8T VAG engine. I won't own or build ANY car for myself with a 4 cylinder engine. I DO care that there is enough room for a V-6 and probably even enough to squeeze in a 4.2 V-8 if I want to do a little extra fabrication. I have a 2.7t sitting in the shop with the block at the machine shop right now and still havn't pulled the 4.2 V8 idea off the plate yet.

I'm happy the car went longitudinal vs transverse and even happier that it has gone in production because now I can get my hands on one to build it the way I want and make changes as I see fit to build my own car.

Wouldn't surprise me if someone makes an AWD EV out of the APEX with Chevy S-10 4x4 hubs bolted into the Corvette knuckles up front and an electric motor on each corner or gets their hands on a 4.2 engine and tranny and out of an Audi R8 and makes an AWD Apex using the same S-10 4x4 front hubs.

A couple old sayings in the world of Hot rods apply to building a car:
  1. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go.
  2. Cheap, Fast, Reliable... You can only pick 2.
 
most have been moving onto newer platforms because our beloved 4G63 vehicles have become too old…

You stated my main concern right there.

The desirable 6 bolt motors are a minimum of 22 years old and appear hard to find unmolested (at least to someone not used to hunting down DSM stuff). That's a very old lump to be putting into a brand new car. It also increases the cost since you'd need to tear the thing down fully and fix/replace things.

Further, it's tough to find a turbo donor car that is unmolested. You can find non-turbo, but then you'd need parts from a turbo car to complete it.

Going that route also gives everyone 1 possible motor option with the only variations in whatever customizing is done.

By going V-Dub, there are a lot newer choices to be had and a number of options to choose from. I took the change as being great for the ability to get the car off the ground. Also, you can do a 4G63 still, you just have to figure out how to do so. I'd bet Fran would help you sort it, it just wouldn't be ready to go from the factory.
 
Fran,

Is the V8 build your doing LS+01e with adapter plate? I'm curious what other modifications will have to be done with this build aside from the obvious motor mounts. Bulkhead?

What accessory drive oil pan using?

I'm giving this alot more thought now.
 
Interesting. Was the choice of the G50 strength or size related as compared to the Audi, since the Apex was already "setup" for that transaxle? or just cause you've been using it with the SLC/gt40 and have familiarity.

Are the subframe modifications the subframes that drop with the engine/transmission or the entire rear subframes needed to be changed.
 
These are your choices guys
Please remember guys I am supporting only the vw 1.8
for regular retail at present
The v8 is for a multiple purchaser and is not a standard option at present as he is funding the extra design and fab work
So if the v8 becomes available then there will be an extra cost that will go to reimburse him first and foremost
 
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I've just been thinking for the cost to build up one of these 2.7 engines or even the 1.8's might be better spent (for me) towards modifying and putting in an LSx. Seems like the cost to get to 450+hp reliably would offset each other. All things being equal then you'd be better off with an LSx for maintenence part replacement (and sound) after that.

I guess that depends on the added costs and amount of fabrication that will take place. I might be wrong in assuming this will only add a couple thousand on to the base price (assuming there are others that want to pay towards paying this guy back for the V8 option). Maybe he's just a really nice guy and will contribute the R&D :laugh:
 
He is a nice guy but not that nice....you are right its not going to be huge price increase if enough people buy into wanting a v8 but it is defeating the object of this car and its original intent.
We already build a whole range of V8 powered monsters and the $$$$ transaxle issue is one I wanted to avoid with the Apex.
 
Agreed. I totally see that point Fran. And part of me was circling back around to the 1.8t for that very reason.

Since the 2.7t is quatro only, whats the point of a donor car for long block only? So if I'm going to build an engine anyway plus buy a transaxel, why not build a junkyard v8 for cheaper. The big difference with the building of the 1.8 is that it really can't be done with junkyard parts, it really requires the after market. Not necessarily a bad thing. The big advantage of the 1.8 build is being able to use more parts and making worth of a donor vehicle.

You know I think if people actually got to the car with the 1.8 (like actually got to see it) we'd all shut up about, what about this, what about that, and be excited for the car as you envisioned it. I'm sure I would.
 
I have built a few kits previously. I do like the concept of the Apex because of all the time spent on the interior, dash etc on previous builds. Using a donor for that portion keeps the build manageable. That said, I know I would remove the entire interior to clean in up, new carpet, new seats, new fabric on the dash. But at least there's nothing to fabricate. Just remove clean up and replace.
 
From what I have found scouring the net for info, the VR6 and Audi 4.2 V8 engines are both similar in size at roughly 19" long. I think the 4.2 is a viable option for those wanting the V8 sound and the 4.2 from what I have found bolts right up to the same trannies as the 1.8 and 2.7. IIRC, Fran said a while back that the VR6 will fit and I believe you do need an adaptor to use the VR engines with the longitudinal transmissions so if the VR6 fits I think the 4.2 Audi V8 will fit right in without too much trouble at all IMHO.

They may even bolt right up to the same mounts in the chassis as Audi used everything they had from the 1.8 4 cylinder all the way up to the 4.2 V8 in the C5 A6.

The 5 speed manual FWD trannies as found in the B5 Passat and A4 are pretty strong. One reason they are so cheap and plentiful and nobody keeps parts in stock for them other than some gaskets and seals.

The downside of the 4.2 is the Alusil block and lack of aftermarket. It's basically a throw away engine.

The 1.8, 2.7 engines have quite a bit of aftermarket.



Scott, once you start "building" a junkyard engine, you'll quickly find cost skyrocket to where you can easily drop $5k - $15k into it and more into any manufacturers engine. It becomes a "While I'm in here I might as well do this too."

Now that you've made all the modifications, the engine no longer has the same volumetric efficiency so you need to get it on a dyno and get it properly tuned by a competent tuner that knows how to tune your particular ecu. Dyno time runs about $150 an hour and Tuning will start at about $400 - $500 and up. Easy to drop another couple grand into that.

The days of even reusing the bolts on major components are long gone too. Many if not most manufacturers use torque to yield bolts on mains, rods, heads so once you pull then you need to throw those bolts away and get new ones. IDK about the GM stuff as I havn't owned or built anything GM in almost 30 years so don't forget to look into all the little stuff that goes into a rebuild can add up to a couple grand really fast too.

One reason you'll find crate engines are so popular these days is that it's actually the same cost or less than building an engine anymore, it's just a bigger chunk of change up front than slowly building an engine over several months.

With big power, now you need a clutch and tranny that can handle it, There goes another $5-$10k+++
 
Agreed. I totally see that point Fran. And part of me was circling back around to the 1.8t for that very reason.

Since the 2.7t is quatro only, whats the point of a donor car for long block only? So if I'm going to build an engine anyway plus buy a transaxel, why not build a junkyard v8 for cheaper. The big difference with the building of the 1.8 is that it really can't be done with junkyard parts, it really requires the after market. Not necessarily a bad thing. The big advantage of the 1.8 build is being able to use more parts and making worth of a donor vehicle.

You know I think if people actually got to the car with the 1.8 (like actually got to see it) we'd all shut up about, what about this, what about that, and be excited for the car as you envisioned it. I'm sure I would.

I have built a few kits previously. I do like the concept of the Apex because of all the time spent on the interior, dash etc on previous builds. Using a donor for that portion keeps the build manageable. That said, I know I would remove the entire interior to clean in up, new carpet, new seats, new fabric on the dash. But at least there's nothing to fabricate. Just remove clean up and replace.


Glass roll up windows, OEM interior, OEM major suspension components and an inexpensive transaxle including automatics (I'm disabled so it's only a matter of time until I can't row my own) that actually bolts right up to a wide range of engines in a good looking mid engine supercar with up to date looks that the average joe can afford to build, drive and maintain. Someone finally put it all together.

Thank you Fran:pepper:
 
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