Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

[Mitch D]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Eric - I'm glad to help out with the info. But I must say, for those awaiting the heavy-duty gearset, you better ask yourself if and when it's ever going to happen. The last post I read said they wanted 30 orders to start production. This seems to be asking a lot since it assumes that people will put down money for something that hasn't been prototyped and tested. With the new R&P it will only require 10 orders to start production. I haven't asked GTA about specifics but I bet they're almost there now without the results from Neal's test drives.

I think some folks may be getting too hung up with specific ratios. Assuming you're looking at the 016 for economic reasons, why is it that 10-15% difference at most in any one gear suddenly gives one pause for thought? Study the final-gear-ratios to see what the real difference is.

The ultimate choice is of course up to the end-user. But until a bunch of people pony up some cash and order the HD gears, they're just imaginary ratios.

Here's some other comparisons for you to consider. I picked hi-powered cars with V8's. Seems like the Audi 016 is pretty damn close to the Ford Mustang Cobra R. Is the change from 1st to 2nd the same, no, but is it worth spending more than double to get the difference?

2004 Ford GT (Final Gear Ratios)
1 - 8.77
2 - 5.75
3 - 4.13
4 - 3.16
5 - 2.59
6 - 2.12

2001 Ford Mustang Cobra R
1 - 10.54
2 - 7.35
3 - 5.08
4 - 3.55
5 - 2.84
6 - 2.20

Audi 016 w/3.22 final drive
1 - 11.59
2 - 6.86
3 - 4.38
4 - 3.12
5 - 2.19

Shelby Series 1
1 - 12.07
2 - 8.69
3 - 6.20
4 - 4.98
5 - 4.04
6 - 3.12

As I said, it's up to the end-user to choose. Enjoy the numbers!

Mitch

 

[Neal]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

After 33 straight days of Seattle rain I've finally been able to get the new 3.17 gearbox on the road and my initial impressions are very positive. I originally installed an Audi 016 5N ratio gearbox with Phantom Grip limited slip. Due to timing I was not able to benchmark this setup against the new 3.17 box so the comparisons to follow are based on my past experience with the 5N. I am running a 347 stroker (462hp/455tq) in front of this box and 255/60/15 rear tires with a 29” rolling diameter.

First gear with my 5N was worthless to the point I stopped using it. The steep stock ratio caused the motor to spool immediately, requiring a short shift into 2nd. This box actually makes it useful. I was able to roll off a standing start and up to about 30mph before shifting. I need some more seat time but I believe it should be good to about 40mph with my motor and tire combo. I am very happy with the performance from a stop. I short shifted through three gears and saw approximately 65mph in third. Shifting into 4th dropped the rpm to about 2.5k rpm.

Shifting is smooth. I'm able to shift with a fluid, quick motion and the transition is very smooth. I have a cable operated shift mechanism and I need to tweak my linkage lengths to get more positive feel and shorten the throw a bit but this has nothing to do with the transmission. I can even downshift from 2nd to 1st smoothly, which I couldn't do with my 5N without bucking the car.

This afternoon if made the following observations:
(Note that I did not have a passenger so all rpm and mph values are subject to my short-term memory!)

1st gear - 2500 rpm ~23mph
5000 rpm ~ 35mph

2nd gear – 2500 rpm ~ 32mph
5000 rpm ~ 53 mph

3rd gear - 2500 rpm ~ 45 mph
5000 rpm ~ 85 mph

4th gear – 2500rpm ~ 62 mph
3500 rpm ~ 78 mph

5th gear – 2500rpm ~ 85 mph
3500rpm ~ 97 mph

I think these compare to the original calculated speeds.

I noticed that the Quaife appears to be more responsive to sharp turns. We have an uphill, off weight turn exiting our neighborhood and my Phantom grip would allow a small amount of slip on the passenger rear. The Quaife keeps the tire to zero slip. It also appears to control "throttle induced oversteer" more effectively. Mind you these tests are restricted to non-public roads!? I'm curious to see how it performs under more aggressive driving. The Phantom Grip is an OK solution but I suspect the Quaife is much better on the track.

My car is primarily designed for road use and occasional track days. This new gearbox is miles ahead of my 5N in that the ratios allow for all 5 gears to be used and highway cruise results in a more sensible rpm range. I’m also hoping to get on the track with a set of Hoosiers and get a better feel for the Quaife performance and suitability of the box for track day and lapping events. I am open for testing suggestions and I plan to get some more road miles on the box and get more definitive rpm/mph data within the next few weeks.

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Great first impressions, Neal! Glad to hear you had a chance to get on the road after all that rain. The numbers look pretty good, but I'd like to ask you to confirm your tire diameter. You said it's 29 inches, but when I do the calculations, it doesn't quite compute.

I calculate the following for 29 inch dia:
1st gear - 35 mph - should be about 4700rpm
2nd gear - 55 mph - should be about 4370rpm
3rd gear - 85 mph - should be about 4310rpm
4th gear - 80 mph - should be about 2900rpm
5th gear - 97 mph - should be about 2460rpm

If I change the diameter to 26, I calculate the following:
1st gear - 35 mph - should be about 5250rpm
2nd gear - 55 mph - should be about 4900rpm
3rd gear - 85 mph - should be about 4800rpm
4th gear - 80 mph - should be about 3200rpm
5th gear - 97 mph - should be about 2750rpm

These numbers look closer to your preliminary results. You mentioned that you were driving and taking mental notes as you went, so maybe that's part of the difference too. Either way, I'm looking forward to hearing more driving impressions in the near future!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/banana.gif

Mitch D

 

[40 Bud]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Most 255-60x15's that I have checked out are right at 27"or a shade under.

 

[Neal]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

My mistake. Rolling diameter is 27" I'm thinking about putting the car on a chassis dyno for it's spring tuneup. This might be a better way to get mph data at specific rpm ranges. I also question the accuracy of my speedometer (and the observer! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.) I have a handheld GPS that I'll take along on the next run.

 

[DMatt]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Neal,

Sounds very encouraging! I would be interested to know what the RPM drop would be between gears. As an example, if you shifted each time at 5500 RPM to the next gear, what would the RPM drop be from first to second, second to third and so on. Seems like that would be easy to test on the dyno.

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Dan - good question about the engine speed in the next gear when shifting. I can't wait for the answers from Neal so here's the calculated values:

Assumptions:
1. Shift each gear at 5500rpm
2. Tire dia = 27 inch
3. Assume road speed (MPH) is unchanged at the exact point of your shift (i.e. you shift out of 1st gear at 35mph, you are now in 2nd gear doing 35mph)

So using the same formulas from before we see the following:

Gear - MPH at 5500rpm - RPM in next gear after shift
1 - 38mph - n/a
2 - 64mph - 3254rpm in 2nd after shift from 1st
3 - 101mph - 3512rpm in 3rd after shift from 2nd
4 - 142mph - 3923rpm in 4th after shift from 3rd
5 - 202mph - 3856rpm in 5th after shift from 4th (and your flying at top end here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

So, looking at these rpms, you can judge for yourself how you think it'll shove you down the road based on Neal's dyno chart http://home.comcast.net/~lemanswinner/dyno.htm.

Mitch D

 

[Neal]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Some additional impressions on the new box...

I took some additional notes regarding the rpm/speed ratio.

1st gear - 35 mph - 5200rpm
2nd gear - 50 mph - 4600rpm
3rd gear - 85 mph - 4700rpm
4th gear - 80 mph - 3100rpm
5th gear - 100 mph - 2900rpm

I fixed the slop in my cable shift linkage. The shifting is now quick and precise. So much so that I was surprised that it wasn't a mechanical linkage. I think this is a combination of things as my old 016 was a bit loose and the shift cables initially weren't adjusted properly.

The car is much more manageable at slower speeds as I can now use second and third and stay within a reasonable rpm range in city traffic. I felt as though I needed to hunt for gears with the original box. Roll out in 1st is much more manageable. Highway cruise speeds are comfortable in 4th gear. You really stretch your legs in 5th.

Under hard acceleration the Quaife really helps maintain the straight line stability.
It's clear that I need to go to some sticky tires as the Dunlops just aren’t up to the task. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

When I approached my build I was looking for an economical alternative to the ZF. I went to the Audi instead of Renault as they were readily available in the US. While the stock 5N worked I was disappointed with the ratio spreads once I was on the street. The 3.22 box addresses the issue. The Quaife may be overkill for the street but I suspect it will pay off on the track and at the autocross. If cost is a big issue I’d suggest considering the use of a Phantom grip. I found it adequate for street driving in my 5N box but did not track test it.

Up next, a new set of wheels and Hoosiers are in the works. Then, off to the dyno. I’m also planning on putting a camera in the car for a more interactive experience!

As a side note, I’d like to thank GTA and Mitch D for allowing me to test this transmission. It’s not often you get to try before you buy!

I’m happy to provide any data or perform additional testing if there are questions. I’ll keep the updates coming as time permits.

 

[Chris P.]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

OFF TOPIC: hey Neal - is that a big-ass Zenoah powered R/C boat I see in one of the pictures on your build site??? I've wanted to make a big-ass R/C boat someday, so far only made a big-ass R/C car. Looks cool.

 

[Neal]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

1/4 scale Crackerbox. Based on the old APBA design. We have a group that run 10-12 at a time heads up. Scratch built about 10 years ago. Great fun...
http://www.rcstore.com/rs/general/listproducts5.asp?catid=29&catego=PL

A popular class for RC boaters.

The real deal is a wild ride. Driver and riding mechanic, flat bottom, small block, direct drive prop. They are about 15' long and do 70mph. A cool piece of boat racing history!

 

[Chris P.]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Great info - thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[TonyM]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.22 R&P

Hi,

I was interested to know where this went, can you get this R&P set installed by GTA or did it never get out of the gate? Any info and contacts would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony M.

 

[Rich A]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Tony,
It is still available but the prices have gone up.

"1. $3995 USD - User supplies “rebuildable 016 type 5N core”, GTA performs complete rebuild (bearings, synchros, etc), machines case and installs new 3.17 R&P, including Quaife LSD"

This package is now near $5k.

 

[Mike Dozier]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Tony

Your CAV is a beauty...where in NJ are you located ?

MikeD

 

[Mitch D]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Tony M - the project went very well, thank you. As indicated earlier on this thread, production units were made and sold through GTA. As I stated from the beginning, I was not "in business" to sell these things, I merely provided the capital to get the project underway through completion. Noone else in the world made a suitable R&P for the 016 for this price or any price. If you don't want the "nearly 5k" price, you can always buy it without the Quaif and that probably drops the price more than $1200 USD - check with GTA to be sure. I just spoke with John at GTA a few weeks ago, and he continues to sell and install the items.

When RF went belly up, I abandoned the whole idea of a GT40.......for now. The prototype went to Neal here on the forum, and my second additional unit was sold by GTA when I didn't need it (I had two built for myself - one prototype and one production unit).

Fran at RCR is making it very tough to keep the idea of a new toy out of mind. If he ever makes a Porsche 906 I'll be breaking his door down to place an order.

Seems I still gravitate back to this forum when I want to drool a bit. Bill D and Sandy's cars are making it tough to get the Gulf livery GT40 off my mind.


Mitch D

 

[TonyM]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Tony

Your CAV is a beauty...where in NJ are you located ?

MikeD

Hi Mike,

Thanks, that's an old picture, it has now had a refreshed paint job as I wasn't that happy with the CAV job, it also sports a wide black strip. I'll post some more pics when it comes out of the shop. I'm in Marlboro, central NJ.

Thanks,

Tony M.

 

[TonyM]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Tony M - the project went very well, thank you. As indicated earlier on this thread, production units were made and sold through GTA. As I stated from the beginning, I was not "in business" to sell these things, I merely provided the capital to get the project underway through completion. Noone else in the world made a suitable R&P for the 016 for this price or any price. If you don't want the "nearly 5k" price, you can always buy it without the Quaif and that probably drops the price more than $1200 USD - check with GTA to be sure. I just spoke with John at GTA a few weeks ago, and he continues to sell and install the items.

When RF went belly up, I abandoned the whole idea of a GT40.......for now. The prototype went to Neal here on the forum, and my second additional unit was sold by GTA when I didn't need it (I had two built for myself - one prototype and one production unit).

Fran at RCR is making it very tough to keep the idea of a new toy out of mind. If he ever makes a Porsche 906 I'll be breaking his door down to place an order.

Seems I still gravitate back to this forum when I want to drool a bit. Bill D and Sandy's cars are making it tough to get the Gulf livery GT40 off my mind.


Mitch D

Hi Mitch,

I spoke to GTA earlier and they said they just sold the last 5 units to someone in Canada. They don't expect to get any more in for 4 to 6 months which is a shame as I want to get my on the road within the next couple of months. I will probably end up using it as is for the summer and next winter have it rebuilt. Fran's cars certainly look good, I'm thinking there's probably an RCR-P car in my future..!!

Cheers,

Tony M.

 

[Neal]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Mitch, come back to the dark side. You won't regret it!

 

[JeffGum]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

It's been a while now - any long term updates on the re-R&P'ed 016 trans? This was a great test and followed with interest - but no updates from the tester(s) in a good while now??
Is GTA still performing the upgrades?

Jeff

 

[Charlie M]

Re: Announcing Audi 016 with custom 3.17 R&P

Any updates on this? The subject came up in a recent thread.

Thanks,
Charlie