Another EFI Induction system

[Dave Wharran]

Seen this on the Pantera Forum some time ago. Interesting looking system to say the least.

Asa Jay has some additional pictures on his website as well as contact info. This setup was for a 351C.
http://www.asajay.com/panthome.htm

 

[scott]

That is a very attractive set-up. If it works as well as it looks and they make one for a 302 I'm very tempted

 

[Dave Wharran]

Malcolm,
You are correct. Runner length can be tuned to provide torque increases at various rpm ranges with longer runners producing more torque at lower rpm's. Likewise, exhaust header length can also be tuned for better cylinder scavenging at certain rpm's.

I've read that injector location can also effect peak HP with higher peaks when the injector is located further from the intake valve....theoretically.
I tried this with my VW some years ago and ran into intake runner wetting at low engine speeds (low air velocity in the runner) and throttle just off idle. Had to set the injection time way high to compensate and would get into engine "bucking" or surging just off idle. Failed experiment!! Had to move the injectors close to the valves to prevent the problem. I never put the engine on a dyno to compare peak HP with both setups. It wouldn't have made much difference because I ran the car on the street and couldn't live with the surging condition.

 

[Guest]

My knowledge of multi carb and EFI is limited but I thought that long inlet ducts and air trumpets = better torque curve especially at lower RPM. If that is true this looks good. The actual intakes would be above the level of the rear deck but well below the rear screen so clearance should be ok if all else equal. Do they do a 302 version? Most likely not. However cf looks for vertical intakes and it loses a little appeal perhaps?

Malcolm

 

[Bob Putnam]

It seems to me that the idea is to get the fuel in with as much atomization, and as little evaporation as possible. (The latter is to maximize the amount of air in the total volume, although there is the cooling factor...) The further away that the injector is from the cylinder, the less likely for good atomization and the more evaporation.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Dave, is this system available in the USA and do you know how to get in touch with the maker? I haven't made a decision on induction yet, not firmly anyway, and I am intrigued by that system if it is available.

 

[Dave Wharran]

Jim,
I first saw this some time back when the Pantera guys were talking about it on the DeTomaso forum. I had already purchased a vertical TWM setup. I'm running a Cleveland and had to buy my intake in Austraila (for 2V heads).
Asa Jay had this as well as some other photos posted on his website: http://www.asajay.com/panthome.htm

He has the following contact info posted:

Mike Fielder
[email protected]
Australian Muscle Parts
Australian phone number - 011-613-59402337
California Distribution phone number - 562-428-9764

and

Active manifolds+components
363 Victoria Road
Rydalmere NSW 2116
ph [02]98980788
fax[02]98980968

I never inquired because I was already committed. Don't know if it's available for anything other than Cleveland heads. You can maybe contact Asa Jay at:
[email protected] to gather more info.

Dave

 

Bob, is the atomisation only a real problem when the injector aims directly at the opposite side of the runner, therefore having the fuel "fall" from the air, causing the puddling problems? Wouldn't the velocity of the incoming air assist an injector that is facing "downwind"? I don't know, but I'm just trying to learn and understand.

 

[Adam C.]

I believe I've seen these guys before. (or at least another group of guys from Australia with a manifold like this). They're always at the Ford swap meet here in Columbus. The last one was just last weekend. I could of asked them about it if I had seen this post earlier. The next one is in March. I only remember seeing it for the cleveland though.

Adam

 

[Bill Bayard]

Guys,
Before everybody gets too excited about this induction system, think about where these horizontal trumpets will fall in relationship to the induction aperture in the rear clip of a GT40.
Considering the valve cover height, and the trumpet width, in order to make this fit, you would have to either be VERY lucky with your engine height, or do some major modifying of the induction hole in the rear clip.
If this system were mounted on my engine, the center of the trumpets would be even with the induction hole, perhaps even a bit below. Granted, engine heights of GT40's vary, but some serious measurement should be done before investing in one of these systems, unless you already plan to butcher your rear clip to make things fit.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill

 

as for the positioning of the injector question: here's a quote from TWM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Why are the injectors positioned in the TWM throttle bodies and not in the manifolds, like original equipment EFI systems?
Original equipment EFI systems are configured to meet very stringent emission regulations and to provide "soft" driveability characteristics. Positioning the injector as close to the inlet valve is beneficial in this respect. Maximum power however, is usually obtained by moving the injector away from the inlet valve, some racing engine manufacturers going as far as to mount the injector high in the velocity stack and others installing two injectors, designed to operate at different RPM. When TWM designed the throttle bodies our engineers were not in favor of having high pressure fuel on the atmosphere side of the throttle plate, although this could have resulted in some power increase. We compromised by mounting the injector as far from the cylinder head as possible while still maintaining the safety afforded by keeping the fuel downstream of the butterfly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Adam C.]

the greatest benifit of GDI isn't necessarily power but gas mileage. This is due to the locally rich mixture around the injector, which is also near the plug. Since the fule can be introduced after the intake event and located around the plug, the engine can run much leaner than a conventional injection system. This in turn allows the engine to be run closer to WOT at all times, reducing pumping losses similar to diesel. At full power and enrichment however, the injector is typically fired during the intake stroke similar SEFI. There are numerous other tricks that I'm sure the Audi boys are using.
There are numerous drawbacks including complication, fuel pressures, and believe it or not emissions. The shape of the combustion chamber and piston become VERY important and therefore sensitive to our tinkering. The spray pattern, atomization, carbon buildup, and robustness of the injector are also major engineering problems at the moment.
We will certainly see more passenger cars equiped with GDI, but I doubt any systems will be introduced for the Ford small block in the near future or ever.

Adam

 

[Guest]

Just to throw a kink in the position of the injector, the latest buzz word in this area is GDI. Gasoline Direct Injection. Audi uses it in its racing engines (and some road cars in Europe) as does Mitsubishi and Opel. The lack of GDI technology was one of the reasons the Cadillac LMP program was ended.