Is there any possibility that being where the electric W/pump is located air could be drawn back in through the bleed line.
Cooling problem
- Thread starter Bobs 9401
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Jac Mac,
Thanks a ton I will try that set up and let all of you know how it works.
Thanks to all,
Bob
Thanks a ton I will try that set up and let all of you know how it works.
Thanks to all,
Bob
Unlikely as the bleed line 'should' be fairly small in its 'ID' as its not meant to flow any great volume of coolant-only allow any air bubbles to vent, & at any given time there should be approx 10" to 12" of coolant head above the pump & below any air that may have been pushed fwd to the top of radiator tanks which would only be likely when the car is 'nose high' on an incline or has a problem like blown head gasket & the volume of 'air' being produced is greater than the vent lines can deal with, in which case you have to break out the toolbox anyway...
Sorry to be a bit thick about these things, but does anyone run a swirl pot or is this not recommended?
Bob,
From your drawing it appears that you have both the hot return main tube and the cold suction main tube to the engine located at the bottom of the radiator. The traditional locations for a cross flow radiator are for the hot return to come in at the top and the suction side to the engine to draw from the bottom. If the inlet and outlet are both at the bottom there can be some biasing of the flow and it may only effectively use part of the rad. If your system is vertical tubes and dual pass with the bottom tank divided that is defferent but I expect that you have a cross flow rad with an end tank on each side.
Hope this helps,
Gord
From your drawing it appears that you have both the hot return main tube and the cold suction main tube to the engine located at the bottom of the radiator. The traditional locations for a cross flow radiator are for the hot return to come in at the top and the suction side to the engine to draw from the bottom. If the inlet and outlet are both at the bottom there can be some biasing of the flow and it may only effectively use part of the rad. If your system is vertical tubes and dual pass with the bottom tank divided that is defferent but I expect that you have a cross flow rad with an end tank on each side.
Hope this helps,
Gord
Interesting thread. I think I will need to do some work on my car when it is running. Currently it has an expansion bottle teed into one of the main lines running to/from the engine. There are no bleed hoses. A quick question: Why does the bleed line from the radiator need to go to the top of the expansion tank, but the other bleed line from the engine goes to the bottom? Pressure equalisation?
That is not correct, the line from the bottom of the expansion tank is a larger ~1/2" ID for return of coolant from that tank to the cooling system after any air bubbles have been released. Have a close look at the picture Alan posted & you will see the size noted on the return and bleed lines. Bob's first drawing was incorrect in this area, but I altered it to suit his 'new' electric pump installation/position since his 'old' pump is now no more than a convenient flow distribution unit.
Bleed lines must go to top of header tank, just below radiator cap.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
I suspect Simon is referring to the second diagram, of an SPF, where the radiator bleed goes into the tank about 2/3" of the way up, but the engine bleed goes to the bottom. Look at item "B." I was wondering why as well. Do you have any idea why they would have designed it that way?
I wonder if the engine bleed pipe as fitted in the SPF tank is made so that it extends inside the tank & up nearer the top to function correctly, while allowing a slightly tidier hose location externally?
Ahah! I just looked at the diagram again. My mistake, I confused the 1/2" line with the bleed hose. So both bleed hoses go to the top of the bottle and then there is the main return hose going back to the engine coolant line. So normally there will be a small flow going through the bleed hoses (and removing air bubbles), with the larger 1/2" line returning coolant to the system. Makes perfect sense.
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Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Nope, I just looked. It just pokes into the can right at the bottom.
FWIW they did separate the two levels of the can somewhat with a flat plate with a ~4" circular opening; kind of a minimal swirl plate. Does it somehow make sense they would have wanted the output of the radiator purge to get more de-aerated than the engine purge?
The only other difference I can think of is that the engine is a constant source of "air" while once the radiator is purged it's done contributing air to the system in operation. Is there some way that could matter?
Also, given SPF/Hi-tech's usual approach, that can is probably a copy of one from some GT40. Is it possible that organization of inputs and outputs was not their idea?
And of course the other possible explanation is that the diagram, done by a now-defunct SPF dealer (I believe), is simply wrong, and that small bottom port was intended for some entirely differen purpose, and they simply forgot about the engine purge, or expected them to tee at the top. Who knows?
Rick Muck -- You usually know the answer to questions like this.....
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Ha Guys,
Well I finally got the plumbing all finished the way the new drawing shows it, please see the attached pictures. I filled the expansion tank to about half full, then ran the electric pump with the cap off the tank and the level stayed right where it was, I then started the engine and watched the tank and it still stayed right at half full. I then put the cap on the tank and ran the engine for about 5 to 10 minutes and the temp got up to about 180 degrees, I shut off the engine let it cool down and then checked the expansion tank and it was low so I added water to about half full again. Now it was time to take it for a drive and see how it runs. I took the car around the block 4 miles and it was at about 195 degrees when I pulled into the driveway I let the car run for a little bit with the fan running and it still was climbing up on temp it got to about 210 degrees when I shut it down. So I guess my problem is not solved yet it did however get a lot better. One thing I noticed is that when I shut it down I slowly opened the cap on the expansion tank and promptly got about a good quart out of it before it stopped running. Any ideas guys???? what should I do next? Could it be a clogged radiator? or a blown head gasket, these are ideas that other people have told me mite be the problem.
Thanks,
Bob
Well I finally got the plumbing all finished the way the new drawing shows it, please see the attached pictures. I filled the expansion tank to about half full, then ran the electric pump with the cap off the tank and the level stayed right where it was, I then started the engine and watched the tank and it still stayed right at half full. I then put the cap on the tank and ran the engine for about 5 to 10 minutes and the temp got up to about 180 degrees, I shut off the engine let it cool down and then checked the expansion tank and it was low so I added water to about half full again. Now it was time to take it for a drive and see how it runs. I took the car around the block 4 miles and it was at about 195 degrees when I pulled into the driveway I let the car run for a little bit with the fan running and it still was climbing up on temp it got to about 210 degrees when I shut it down. So I guess my problem is not solved yet it did however get a lot better. One thing I noticed is that when I shut it down I slowly opened the cap on the expansion tank and promptly got about a good quart out of it before it stopped running. Any ideas guys???? what should I do next? Could it be a clogged radiator? or a blown head gasket, these are ideas that other people have told me mite be the problem.
Thanks,
Bob
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Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Just to make sure I follow: when you opened the cap a quart of coolant came out?
A conclusion I think we can make: the system did not self-bleed from being filled, you had to run it to get more air out (based on the fact that the header tank level dropped after you first filled it.)
Given that, possibly that bleeding action was not complete, so some remaining trapped air in the system heated up, wanted to expand, and when given the chance to by your opening the cap forced a quart of coolant out. But the question that leads to is "where is that air trapped?" Regardless, at this point I would be tempted to give it another chance or two to bleed off any air; perhaps jacking up either end while its running to see if you can free up some trapped air and/or seeking out steep hills.
There are chemical-based kits for testing for head gasket leaks into the cooling system (Napa has them). I have one which a friend has used but the results seemed a little inconclusive to him. One sign of a head gasket leak that I have experienced is that the spark plug in the cylinder with the leak will be distinctly cleaner than the other seven. Also there will be a smell of antifreeze from that cylinder with the plug out (assuming of course you're using anti-freeze). And maybe even a drop or two of water, which is distinctly different in appearance from any other fluid like gasoline or oil.
You can investigate the clogged radiator theory by feeling or measuring its temperature over its surface with an inexpensive infra-red thermometer/pyrometer (just hold it close to the radiator so you don't get tricked by the width of its measurment beam). When the coolant is reading at ~200 F the radiator should be around that temp over its full surface. If not then it's not doing its job for whatever reason.
Also I've lost track: your engine bleed is at the rear of the intake manifold, but where now is the temperature sender?
Oh, and I just remembered something: be sure to do all this bleeding with the heater valve open, and make sure you are getting heat from the heater, otherwise it could be trapping some air.
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Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
When you next start the car and get it hot feel around every pipe as they should all get hot - if not then there is no flow in that pipe.
Also jack the front of the car about 2 foot in the air (really) and run the engine and pump this helps purge the rear of the heads of trapped air.
To bleed mine I fill the expansion tank to the brim, seal it and let it puke out excess fluid and never open the cap when hot
Ian
Also jack the front of the car about 2 foot in the air (really) and run the engine and pump this helps purge the rear of the heads of trapped air.
To bleed mine I fill the expansion tank to the brim, seal it and let it puke out excess fluid and never open the cap when hot
Ian
Bob,
when your driving do you ever see the temp rise quickly and then fall after 10 to 15 seconds? I found with my system that until I was able to get all the air out I would get steam pockets and as the steam went accross the temp sender the temp would rise to like 220 or 230 and then fall back to 180 or sometimes even lower. Early on ,before I added an air bleed at the high point on the line running to the rad. right out of the thermostat housing, this was a never ending problem. I have bleed lines from the top of the rad. and the top of the main line to the rad into the expansion tank and it works fine but it still takes some time and effort to bleed all the air out of the system. Both my bleed lines run into the top of the expansion tank. I have found that my car can sit and run all day in hot weather (as hot as it can get in Seattle) and stay at 180 but as soon as I drive it hard if there is any air in the system I have a problem. If I drive it "easy" I won't see any problems even with air in the system but I will see the fluctuations as the steam passes the temp sender alerting me that there is air still in the system. Hope this is of some use.
Steve
when your driving do you ever see the temp rise quickly and then fall after 10 to 15 seconds? I found with my system that until I was able to get all the air out I would get steam pockets and as the steam went accross the temp sender the temp would rise to like 220 or 230 and then fall back to 180 or sometimes even lower. Early on ,before I added an air bleed at the high point on the line running to the rad. right out of the thermostat housing, this was a never ending problem. I have bleed lines from the top of the rad. and the top of the main line to the rad into the expansion tank and it works fine but it still takes some time and effort to bleed all the air out of the system. Both my bleed lines run into the top of the expansion tank. I have found that my car can sit and run all day in hot weather (as hot as it can get in Seattle) and stay at 180 but as soon as I drive it hard if there is any air in the system I have a problem. If I drive it "easy" I won't see any problems even with air in the system but I will see the fluctuations as the steam passes the temp sender alerting me that there is air still in the system. Hope this is of some use.
Steve
Steve/Bob, you need a bleed line from the highest point of your intake manifold instead of one from the main line to the radiator. The flow of the coolant out of the thermostat and through the radiator is what expels the air through to the bleed lines. Thats why you need one at the top of the radiator (opposite side of the inlet) and one from the high point of the manifold. These two can be tee-ed together and enter anywhere on the expansion tank. The air will rise to the top of the tank and be expelled to the overflow (puke) tank whenever the level and pressure is great enough to let coolant out from under the expansion tank cap.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
I've been following this thread rather carefully and I don't understand why you think he doesn't already have one. His photos clearly show a bleed line at the rear of his intake manifold.
Mark, I am greatful for any help from members on this forum and thank you for your reply. I do NOT have an air bleed in my intake it is at the high point of the pressure line to the radiator after the thermostat housing. I'm wondering if I would be better to have it in the intake as you suggest so as to let the air escape from the engine. I do have a bleed in the correct place on the radiator. It would be very easy to change the location from the pressure line to the intake. Thank you for taking the time to help.
Steve
Steve
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Oh, I see, that's why the "Steve/Bob". It would be nice if we could restrict this discussion to the original car or else we're going to get very confused about who has what problem. Maybe Steve could start his own thread if we are to diagnose his car....
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