Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
That car belongs to Gio here on the forum...James Giovanni
That car belongs to Gio here on the forum...James Giovanni
Last edited:
GT40 in Troy, MI. Classic Auto Showplace
- Thread starter DaytonaBill
- Start date
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
there are a few cars that get sold and later are found out to be fakes,however I would find it hard to believe that anyone would believe this car is original. But I suppose anything could happen.
there are a few cars that get sold and later are found out to be fakes,however I would find it hard to believe that anyone would believe this car is original. But I suppose anything could happen.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
This car has some provenance as a replica, of that there is no doubt. And, if one were able to document the parts on it that are truly Ford GT40P NOS or otherwise Ford parts from an original car that was canibilized or whatever, that would add to the value of the car. However, each individual prospective buyer would have to calculate for him or her self what that value would be. Even if FIA papers have been obtained for this car, given the waffling that the FIA has been documented as having done recently where their standards of originality are concerned, trying to relate the value of this car to the value of any numbered chassis Ford or Safir car would be a very dodgey issue.
A real brain teaser just poppled into my mind as I was thingking about this situation. Lets assume that one could document that some high percentage of the drive train components, suspension components, electrical system, fuel bladders, etc., etc. were indeed NOS or otherwise true GT40P parts. Now lets assume that one either obtained one of the 10 or so chassis that Lee Holman has or one of the new high fidelity SPF chassis. If one then hung these documented parts on either of those tubs, what would one have?? I am not even going to address body panels; because, to my mind, one would have a snow ball's chance in Hades every proving, one way or the other, the origins of any of them. (Unless of course you had Chris' or one of the ?2? other aluminum bodies, but even then, I think there would be a debate raised by someone or another.)
A couple of years ago, Lee Holman wanted $500K for a MK II of largely newly constructed, as original components on a mono-tub built by the second of the licensed panel companies in England (although I don't think they bear official chassis numbers and CRS prevents me from recalling the company name at the moment.) If Lee actually sold any of these MK IIs at that, or any, price, I am unaware of it. What then might a similar Mk I be worth? What then should an ERA chassis with as original parts (regardless of source) be worth? (And, of course, excusing the fact that it is left hand drive as has been pointed out and was the first major clue that there might be some attempt at misrepresentation going on here. LOL.)
Bottom line is that for most of us Joe Schmoos, it's probably more than we have or are willing to spend. Otherwise, to the guy who has more money than sense, its worth what ever it is worth to him and to hell with everyone else. If there isn't a real one to be had, it's a matter of how "close" you're willing to settle for and how bad the guy with the "close, but no cigar" car needs money.
IMHO, of course,
Lynn
This car has some provenance as a replica, of that there is no doubt. And, if one were able to document the parts on it that are truly Ford GT40P NOS or otherwise Ford parts from an original car that was canibilized or whatever, that would add to the value of the car. However, each individual prospective buyer would have to calculate for him or her self what that value would be. Even if FIA papers have been obtained for this car, given the waffling that the FIA has been documented as having done recently where their standards of originality are concerned, trying to relate the value of this car to the value of any numbered chassis Ford or Safir car would be a very dodgey issue.
A real brain teaser just poppled into my mind as I was thingking about this situation. Lets assume that one could document that some high percentage of the drive train components, suspension components, electrical system, fuel bladders, etc., etc. were indeed NOS or otherwise true GT40P parts. Now lets assume that one either obtained one of the 10 or so chassis that Lee Holman has or one of the new high fidelity SPF chassis. If one then hung these documented parts on either of those tubs, what would one have?? I am not even going to address body panels; because, to my mind, one would have a snow ball's chance in Hades every proving, one way or the other, the origins of any of them. (Unless of course you had Chris' or one of the ?2? other aluminum bodies, but even then, I think there would be a debate raised by someone or another.)
A couple of years ago, Lee Holman wanted $500K for a MK II of largely newly constructed, as original components on a mono-tub built by the second of the licensed panel companies in England (although I don't think they bear official chassis numbers and CRS prevents me from recalling the company name at the moment.) If Lee actually sold any of these MK IIs at that, or any, price, I am unaware of it. What then might a similar Mk I be worth? What then should an ERA chassis with as original parts (regardless of source) be worth? (And, of course, excusing the fact that it is left hand drive as has been pointed out and was the first major clue that there might be some attempt at misrepresentation going on here. LOL.)
Bottom line is that for most of us Joe Schmoos, it's probably more than we have or are willing to spend. Otherwise, to the guy who has more money than sense, its worth what ever it is worth to him and to hell with everyone else. If there isn't a real one to be had, it's a matter of how "close" you're willing to settle for and how bad the guy with the "close, but no cigar" car needs money.
IMHO, of course,
Lynn
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Just so noone gets me wrong - I have no issue with the price. The seller is free to ask whatever he wishes, and the buyer is free to pay whatever he can negotiate. My only issue is with the way this item is portrayed. Is it a "real GT40 MKI" or is it a "replica." The sales folks are consciously avoiding the word "kit" and/or "replica" and that to me makes this unsavory.
It certainly is a beautiful car. If it was a reasonably priced ERA (read less than 100k, I'd be interested. At 250K, I would not consider it.
MD
Just so noone gets me wrong - I have no issue with the price. The seller is free to ask whatever he wishes, and the buyer is free to pay whatever he can negotiate. My only issue is with the way this item is portrayed. Is it a "real GT40 MKI" or is it a "replica." The sales folks are consciously avoiding the word "kit" and/or "replica" and that to me makes this unsavory.
It certainly is a beautiful car. If it was a reasonably priced ERA (read less than 100k, I'd be interested. At 250K, I would not consider it.
MD
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Hey everyone,
Check out Hemmings Motor News over the last few months. This car sure looks like the Red ERA GT40 car advertised in Hemmings by Gary Matthew who use to be from (I think the Detroit area), and now in Florida. His car was advertised with a 351/ZF, so this might be another totally different car.
Someone out there is sure to know the ERA#. Peter, are you going to tell us?
Gary
Hey everyone,
Check out Hemmings Motor News over the last few months. This car sure looks like the Red ERA GT40 car advertised in Hemmings by Gary Matthew who use to be from (I think the Detroit area), and now in Florida. His car was advertised with a 351/ZF, so this might be another totally different car.
Someone out there is sure to know the ERA#. Peter, are you going to tell us?
Gary
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Typical used car dealer sales tactics. It's deceptive advertising like this that gives the whole industry (used cars) and specific niches (replicas) a bad name. We all suffer for their lack of ethics and fair dealing.
The owner, and the dealer, should stand up and be men and clearly state the material facts. It ain't an original so don't try to say, or even suggest, that it is. Is it so tough to be straightforward and upstanding?
The market will tell these folks what the car is worth and my bet is that nobody is paying over $100K for a non-original car.
Typical used car dealer sales tactics. It's deceptive advertising like this that gives the whole industry (used cars) and specific niches (replicas) a bad name. We all suffer for their lack of ethics and fair dealing.
The owner, and the dealer, should stand up and be men and clearly state the material facts. It ain't an original so don't try to say, or even suggest, that it is. Is it so tough to be straightforward and upstanding?
The market will tell these folks what the car is worth and my bet is that nobody is paying over $100K for a non-original car.
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Gary,
There is no doubt that a large number of vinyl logo stickers have been removed from the car in most of the pictures that are on the ClassicAuto website. If viewed alone this might cause some doubt about which car they are actually selling. However the pictures of the driver's side of the engine area shown below should help remove doubt. The one from my website is one of the pictures used to show the quality of the headers that were being offered. Compare it with the similar picture at ClassicAuto.
Regards,
Lynn
Picture from my website:
Picture from Trader Online:
Gary,
There is no doubt that a large number of vinyl logo stickers have been removed from the car in most of the pictures that are on the ClassicAuto website. If viewed alone this might cause some doubt about which car they are actually selling. However the pictures of the driver's side of the engine area shown below should help remove doubt. The one from my website is one of the pictures used to show the quality of the headers that were being offered. Compare it with the similar picture at ClassicAuto.
Regards,
Lynn
Picture from my website:
Picture from Trader Online:
Ron Earp
Admin
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Has anyone emailed this thread to the company representing the car?
Might be a good idea before the company gets itself into a position it does not want to be in. They could, in good faith, be telling people exactly what the owner told them to say and not know any better. Assuming consignment.
I passed it on to them.
Ron
Has anyone emailed this thread to the company representing the car?
Might be a good idea before the company gets itself into a position it does not want to be in. They could, in good faith, be telling people exactly what the owner told them to say and not know any better. Assuming consignment.
I passed it on to them.
Ron
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
I'd like a pair of those rocker covers...;
Chris
I'd like a pair of those rocker covers...;
Chris
Pete McCluskey.
Lifetime Supporter
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
It will be interesting if you get a response from them.
Ron Earp said:
It will be interesting if you get a response from them.
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
The sale-web-page also declares this is the the car Ford used in the "clayroom" alluding that this was particular example was used by stylists when designing the new GT. This is just too fun, but as always, this forum has the real die-hard fans that can ferret out virtually any picture. Here's the real clay pre-production GT. Doesn't look like the "for sale" car in the background to me.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/new-ford-gt/14704-pictures-clay-ford-gt.html
This is getting silly, but it's fun anyway. Not surprisingly, I never heard back regarding my request for a chassis number.
Mitch D
The sale-web-page also declares this is the the car Ford used in the "clayroom" alluding that this was particular example was used by stylists when designing the new GT. This is just too fun, but as always, this forum has the real die-hard fans that can ferret out virtually any picture. Here's the real clay pre-production GT. Doesn't look like the "for sale" car in the background to me.
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/new-ford-gt/14704-pictures-clay-ford-gt.html
This is getting silly, but it's fun anyway. Not surprisingly, I never heard back regarding my request for a chassis number.
Mitch D
Re: GT40 in Troy, MI.
Mitch D , I think you will see Ben Levey's GT40 in the bach ground chassis #1030. I was told that Ford used a number of cars to help them design the new Ford GT.
I got a call last night from a friend that knows this car and about the owner well. It seems this car was an early ERA built in the late eighties. So, I guess it's an "old " ERA. It's just an old replica ! Pretty sad when you think about it. I laughed during that whole phone call conversation. I got more info than I dreamed of!
Lynn, interesting you should mention Lee Holman. I was at Fran Kress's shop last month and saw two of Lee Holman's mono chassis sitting in an enclosed trailer along with some GT40 MKII moulds, a Lola T70 body, and a nice IMSA 911.
Looks someone is going to make a couple of GT40 MKII'S. So somewhere down the road we will be trying to figure out how original these two cars are going to be. At 250K, they would be half the price of Lee's 500K. What a deal!! I wonder how much Lee got for the two chassis? 250K ???
Mitch D , I think you will see Ben Levey's GT40 in the bach ground chassis #1030. I was told that Ford used a number of cars to help them design the new Ford GT.
I got a call last night from a friend that knows this car and about the owner well. It seems this car was an early ERA built in the late eighties. So, I guess it's an "old " ERA. It's just an old replica ! Pretty sad when you think about it. I laughed during that whole phone call conversation. I got more info than I dreamed of!
Lynn, interesting you should mention Lee Holman. I was at Fran Kress's shop last month and saw two of Lee Holman's mono chassis sitting in an enclosed trailer along with some GT40 MKII moulds, a Lola T70 body, and a nice IMSA 911.
Looks someone is going to make a couple of GT40 MKII'S. So somewhere down the road we will be trying to figure out how original these two cars are going to be. At 250K, they would be half the price of Lee's 500K. What a deal!! I wonder how much Lee got for the two chassis? 250K ???
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
All,
It didn't click when Fran said this car belongs to Gio who belongs to the forum. His public name is James and his ID is Gio. Anyway he has some body panels listed in "GT40 Parts" and said last week that he would be gone on business until about now.
Perhaps we should wait for James to provide some insight from his perspective before we go too crazy on this.
Regards,
Lynn
It didn't click when Fran said this car belongs to Gio who belongs to the forum. His public name is James and his ID is Gio. Anyway he has some body panels listed in "GT40 Parts" and said last week that he would be gone on business until about now.
Perhaps we should wait for James to provide some insight from his perspective before we go too crazy on this.
Regards,
Lynn
When I met him (and his car) about five years ago, he told me that he spent a couple of years collecting original GT40 parts while he worked in Europe. When he got back to the states, I think he said he got an ERA chassis and mounted the parts on it.llarsen said:
His car was used briefly by Ford for inspiration when they were working on the "Petunia" (the new GT), but it was replaced by an original GT40.
Below is his car at the 2002 Designer Night in Detroit.
Attachments
I thought it might be an ERA first time I saw the pics. Along with the left hand drive, the rear clamshell latch fittings and side window vents and hardware are ERA, not original. It's also an early steel chassis, around the mid 20's? My original chassis #2019 was steel, which was replaced by the later (and current) stainless steel one after the original was totalled (hence the 2019+ in my signature block).
Whatever, it sure looks nice
Mike
Whatever, it sure looks nice
Mike
I have seen this car many times....its a very nice car.
These is nothing out of the ordinary about its build.
Its just a nice car...has a little patina as its not new but not 250k's worth....
These is nothing out of the ordinary about its build.
Its just a nice car...has a little patina as its not new but not 250k's worth....
